A Rock In A Hat Continued

[srm]

How can we have discussions if you keep locking the thread!

Cal, I've read a lot of your posts...I know you're an inteligent man.

How can you say,

Not only that, but where is the connection between the supposed "revelations" and the stories of the native americans? Where does it say what the revelations were supposed to be about? You are only assuming they were connected to the stories. It certainly doesn't say that.

The passage in context specifically says that it came via revelation. It is all in the context of the Book of Mormon.

""From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same. I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any that ever lived upon the face of the earth, all seated in a circle, father, mother, sons, and daughters, and giving the most profound attention to a boy, eighteen years of age, who had never read the Bible through in his life: he seemed much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of our children, but far more given to meditation and deep study. We were now confirmed in the opinion that God was about to bring to light something upon which we could stay our minds, or that would give us a more perfect knowledge of the plan of salvation and the redemption of the human family. This caused us greatly to rejoice, the sweetest union and happiness pervaded our house, and tranquillity reigned in our midst. [p.85] During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them"

It seems like you are dancing around the issue. You also said,

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it? You are simply making an assumption.

He would know the details because he received the information via revelation. This is just what his mother says. You (and Albanes) say that even his mother thought he was a great story teller. this just simply isn't the case. I think that Albanes is lying. I give you the benefit of the doubt assumking that you're just trusting Albane's words.

Finally you said,

And, you are wrong about Albanes--he is quoting LMS's diaries directly.

Lucy didn't have diaries. This comes from her book that she dictated. it was a biography of her son Joseph. Even more importantly, Albanes quotes out of context to make the passage say something that it does not.

Cal, I understand your beliefs and problems with Church History...in this case you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Guest Starsky]

I think the thread was locked because of the extremely bad behavior of Cal and Pahoran....so blame them for this.

[Guest curvette]

How old was Lucy when she wrote her memoires? I'm guessing she was pretty elderly. With all respect for the aged, even at middle age, I'm not sure I could write my memoires and remember the exact age I was when I did certain things. Maybe Mrs Smith gave her best recollection, but some of the details were off.

[srm]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 25 2004, 02:42 PM

How old was Lucy when she wrote her memoires? I'm guessing she was pretty elderly. With all respect for the aged, even at middle age, I'm not sure I could write my memoires and remember the exact age I was when I did certain things. Maybe Mrs Smith gave her best recollection, but some of the details were off.

She would'a been in her 60s.

[Pahoran]

Srm,

You are twisting "From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord" and "He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. "

into "From this time forth, Josept continued to receive revelations about the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. "

Nowhere does it indicate that this is the case.

[srm]

Originally posted by Pahoran@Feb 25 2004, 05:40 PM

Srm,

You are twisting "From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord" and "He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. "

into "From this time forth, Josept continued to receive revelations about the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. "

Nowhere does it indicate that this is the case.

Pahoran, my friend, I don't know what else to tell you. I posted it a clear as day. I'm not twisting anything. I didn't edit the passage selectively like Cal and Albanes did. I posted the whole thing. In fact the whole chapter is about Moroni's visit and the events surounding it. There is nothing in it to indicate that Lucy thought that Joseph was just telling stories.

[Pahoran]

So "instructions" = "revelations"?

[Winnie G]

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it?

Just my two cents worth, what caught my understanding of JS was the age he was and the lack of education. That’s why he employed scribes or called them. If you have ever read his personal letter to family and friend you would catch on real fast that with his level of reading and writing skills making up the BoM would be an imposable.

I was a skeptic I really checked this out.

She would'a been in her 60s.

Now for her time that would have been OLD. Amazing!

[srm]

Originally posted by Pahoran@Feb 25 2004, 07:19 PM

So "instructions" = "revelations"?

intructions from the Lord absolutely = revelations. but you are getting away from the point. Cal and Albanes say that Lucy's comment prove their premise that Joseph was a known story teller (even his mother thought so). From the context it is clear that Lucy wasn't saying that Joseph was a story teller rather that he received the information from the Lord' and that he shared that information with his family. Here is the quote from his book, "According to Joseph's mother, her son skillfully composed yarns about Native Americans while still just a teen" I'm sorry Pahoran, this is simply a lie. Albanes also said, "long before any golden plates had been found:" According to Lucy's book (which Albanes is using as his proff text) this was not before the plates had been found...it was after.

[srm]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 26 2004, 12:05 AM

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it?

Just my two cents worth, what caught my understanding of JS was the age he was and the lack of education. That’s why he employed scribes or called them. If you have ever read his personal letter to family and friend you would catch on real fast that with his level of reading and writing skills making up the BoM would be an imposable.

I was a skeptic I really checked this out.

She would'a been in her 60s.

Now for her time that would have been OLD. Amazing!

Not really. The life expectancy was much lower mainly because so many children died (at childbirth and soon after) that it skews the average.

[srm]

Cal? Pahoran?

[Guest Starsky]

They are on mod status and I don't know that they are posting anymore.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 28 2004, 08:53 AM

They are on mod status and I don't know that they are posting anymore.

Good.

Paul O

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Feb 29 2004, 12:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Feb 29 2004, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 08:53 AM

They are on mod status and I don't know that they are posting anymore.

Good.

Paul O

Do your sentiments extend to your old flying buddy, bat?

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Feb 26 2004, 12:05 AM

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it?

Just my two cents worth, what caught my understanding of JS was the age he was and the lack of education. That’s why he employed scribes or called them. If you have ever read his personal letter to family and friend you would catch on real fast that with his level of reading and writing skills making up the BoM would be an imposable.

I was a skeptic I really checked this out.

She would'a been in her 60s.

Now for her time that would have been OLD. Amazing!

One needn't be literate to be a great storyteller. Education is not required to spin a great yarn. Imagination and the ability to speak well is all one needs. I always understood the need for the scribes to be because he did not have very advanced writing skills. Which does not equal "ignorance".

As for being "young", well, he WAS 24, the same age Charles Dickens was when he wrote Oliver Twist. Was HE "too young" to write such a tome? eh?

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Rodney+Feb 29 2004, 08:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Feb 29 2004, 08:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Paul Osborne@Feb 29 2004, 12:40 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 08:53 AM

They are on mod status and I don't know that they are posting anymore.

Good.

Paul O

Do your sentiments extend to your old flying buddy, bat?

No. I wish Bat was here. Fortunately I get to talk to him on other message boards. Bat just has a hard time being good sometimes. I miss him.

Paul O

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Feb 29 2004, 12:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Feb 29 2004, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Rodney@Feb 29 2004, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by -Paul Osborne@Feb 29 2004, 12:40 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 08:53 AM

They are on mod status and I don't know that they are posting anymore.

Good.

Paul O

Do your sentiments extend to your old flying buddy, bat?

No. I wish Bat was here. Fortunately I get to talk to him on other message boards. Bat just has a hard time being good sometimes. I miss him.

Paul O

How about Antishock? Or was he a little too serious with his views?

[Paul Osborne]

Sure, I'll take on Antishock and he is welcome here. That's a peice of cake. He always slips up while debating him. The thing I think he hates the most is "faith" and that is the first principle of the gospel.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Paul O

[Jenda]

Originally posted by bizabra+Feb 29 2004, 11:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Feb 29 2004, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Feb 26 2004, 12:05 AM

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it?

Just my two cents worth, what caught my understanding of JS was the age he was and the lack of education. That’s why he employed scribes or called them. If you have ever read his personal letter to family and friend you would catch on real fast that with his level of reading and writing skills making up the BoM would be an imposable.

I was a skeptic I really checked this out.

She would'a been in her 60s.

Now for her time that would have been OLD. Amazing!

One needn't be literate to be a great storyteller. Education is not required to spin a great yarn. Imagination and the ability to speak well is all one needs. I always understood the need for the scribes to be because he did not have very advanced writing skills. Which does not equal "ignorance".

As for being "young", well, he WAS 24, the same age Charles Dickens was when he wrote Oliver Twist. Was HE "too young" to write such a tome? eh?

He was 24 when the church was organized in 1830. The BoM was published the previous year. I would say he was 21-22 during the time he was translating it. It took a little while to find a publisher and get it published. So, I think you are overstating his age by a few years.

The younger you are, the more immature your writing style. I find the BoM extremely complex, and doubt that a 21 year old could come through with a work like that. To write in the style of 15 different people, to understand and expound on the Abrahamic Covenant, to describe in depth war scenes, and to carry it on through 777 pages, IMO, takes much more than just the imagination of a 20 year-old.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Rodney+Feb 29 2004, 03:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Feb 29 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Paul Osborne@Feb 29 2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by -Rodney@Feb 29 2004, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by -Paul Osborne@Feb 29 2004, 12:40 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 08:53 AM

They are on mod status and I don't know that they are posting anymore.

Good.

Paul O

Do your sentiments extend to your old flying buddy, bat?

No. I wish Bat was here. Fortunately I get to talk to him on other message boards. Bat just has a hard time being good sometimes. I miss him.

Paul O

How about Antishock? Or was he a little too serious with his views?

Antishock is not banned, he is on moderated status.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 29 2004, 07:54 PM

The younger you are, the more immature your writing style. I find the BoM extremely complex, and doubt that a 21 year old could come through with a work like that. To write in the style of 15 different people, to understand and expound on the Abrahamic Covenant, to describe in depth war scenes, and to carry it on through 777 pages, IMO, takes much more than just the imagination of a 20 year-old.

It would definitely be unusual. There are examples of similar genius though. Mozart composed his first minuets at age 5, and his first full scale opera at age 12.

[Guest JLHyde]

Originally posted by bizabra+Feb 29 2004, 12:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Feb 29 2004, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Feb 26 2004, 12:05 AM

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it?

Just my two cents worth, what caught my understanding of JS was the age he was and the lack of education. That’s why he employed scribes or called them. If you have ever read his personal letter to family and friend you would catch on real fast that with his level of reading and writing skills making up the BoM would be an imposable.

I was a skeptic I really checked this out.

She would'a been in her 60s.

Now for her time that would have been OLD. Amazing!

One needn't be literate to be a great storyteller. Education is not required to spin a great yarn. Imagination and the ability to speak well is all one needs. I always understood the need for the scribes to be because he did not have very advanced writing skills. Which does not equal "ignorance".

As for being "young", well, he WAS 24, the same age Charles Dickens was when he wrote Oliver Twist. Was HE "too young" to write such a tome? eh?

Charles Dickens didn't write a 500-page "novel" in....what was it?....60 days!

Author Dickens was educated enough to know about all the proper "conventions" involved in employing written story-telling skills.

Joseph Smith, Jr. wrote a long, long "novel" without ever modifying his first "rough draft". It is well-known that even "character development" requires extensive modifications, in order that all characters and their "personal histories" are placed in proper chronological order and perspective, at the very least.

(Sometimes authors confuse one character's traits and background with another, so they must edit and re-write things, in order to give a sense of constancy and continuity).

When I read the Book of Mormon, I see more than human "genius" at work.

(To even state it this way is something of an oxymoron).

Smith, Jr. was no dunce: he was a very observant young man.

To insist that he was somehow a tale-spinning, lying deviant is a big, big mistake to make, in my opinion.

[Guest JLHyde]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 29 2004, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 29 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Feb 29 2004, 11:42 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Winnie G@Feb 26 2004, 12:05 AM

Why would JS know the details of the BoM before he translated it?

Just my two cents worth, what caught my understanding of JS was the age he was and the lack of education. That’s why he employed scribes or called them. If you have ever read his personal letter to family and friend you would catch on real fast that with his level of reading and writing skills making up the BoM would be an imposable.

I was a skeptic I really checked this out.

She would'a been in her 60s.

Now for her time that would have been OLD. Amazing!

One needn't be literate to be a great storyteller. Education is not required to spin a great yarn. Imagination and the ability to speak well is all one needs. I always understood the need for the scribes to be because he did not have very advanced writing skills. Which does not equal "ignorance".

As for being "young", well, he WAS 24, the same age Charles Dickens was when he wrote Oliver Twist. Was HE "too young" to write such a tome? eh?

He was 24 when the church was organized in 1830. The BoM was published the previous year. I would say he was 21-22 during the time he was translating it. It took a little while to find a publisher and get it published. So, I think you are overstating his age by a few years.

The younger you are, the more immature your writing style. I find the BoM extremely complex, and doubt that a 21 year old could come through with a work like that. To write in the style of 15 different people, to understand and expound on the Abrahamic Covenant, to describe in depth war scenes, and to carry it on through 777 pages, IMO, takes much more than just the imagination of a 20 year-old.

Where do you come up with 777 pages?

(Mine has 522)

[Snow]

Jenda is RLDS, maybe they have a different page count in their publication, plus there is a lost written 116 pages...

Say, by the way, since this was originally my topic... I have been studying the translation process for the past couple weeks preparing for a lesson next week. I'll grant that Mormons who don't pay attention (like me) may not be fully informed about the process, but I also believe that the anti's who think they know what really happened, are mostly just blowing smoke.

[Guest Starsky]

Blowing smoke is all the Anti's can do these days...all of their 'objections' or 'problems' with the church history has been answered a million times...in a million ways...