Um, can he do this?


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My ex husband is getting married in the temple soon. The woman he is marrying is very nice, so this isn't about me disliking her or having any misplaced anger in her direction.

For those of you that remember, no, this is not the woman he had an affair with a while back. Completely different woman. Some of you also may remember that my husband and I were never sealed in the temple. Thus, my son was never sealed to either of us.

One of his friends who I am also friends with let it slip that my ex plans on having our son sealed to him and his new wife the day they are married. He never informed me of this, no one ever asked me if this might be upsetting or if it was even okay.

For those of you well versed in the CHI, is this allowed? Can he have our son sealed to him and his new wife without my permission? For the record, I don't have anything against him being sealed to his father, but I certainly take issue with him participating in an ordinance that implies his stepmother is his mother. I am even more angry that this is being done without my consent, when the two of us have joint custody.

I just want to know exactly what the church allows and what they don't allow before taking any further steps. I'm not going to bring this up to my ex until I know exactly what the church's stance is on this.

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My brother-in-law has a child from his first (non-temple) marriage. For many years, he and his ex-wife had joint custody of their son. When he remarried, he went back to court, and was awarded full custody. A year and a half after he and his wife were married, they went to the temple to be sealed. In preparation for that, they had talked about having my nephew sealed to both of them. Despite the legal status, they were told that they had to have his mother's permission in order for the ordinance to take place. They were able to obtain it (to the surprise of the rest of the family), and he was sealed to them.

Regardless of the custodial arrangements, your ex should obtain written permission from you prior to the ordinance taking place.

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you have joint custody, but who does the child reside with?

i'm not versed in the chi but i know that if it's joint custody nothing should be done (not even baptism) without your consent. (my older siblings had to be legally adopted by my dad before he could be sealed to them) however, all the temple will ask for is the living ordinance recommend, it's assumed the bishop and stake got the proper legal stuff out of the way first. if the bishop or stake doesn't care about following the rules they can give the recommend and it could happen. if it happens odds are it will not be revoked but left that way. the principle of "at least he's sealed to someone" will take over in the minds of those making the decisions. i know of 3 different occasions (2 in my own family) where ordinance work was done out of order, without "consent", and the ppl involved in the violation were given a slap on the wrist and the ordinance was "valid".

i would go to the bishop, the stake, etc immediately. do you know when they plan to be married?

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I don't know. I think it might be happening over Christmas. Which really ticks me off, because my ex pleaded with me "can I have him for a week during Christmas? I really want him to go with me to my girlfriend's home so he can meet her family".

At this point I didn't even know they were engaged. I just thought he wanted our son to meet the family of his girlfriend. I was cool with it, and even asked if he would need me to get our son anything extra for the trip. He lied to me. I gave up my Christmas with my son trying to be nice and helpful.

I'm sorry, i'm kind of flipping out right now. I know this seems silly and unimportant, I knew they were going to get married, and I was really happy for them because I like her a lot and was excited to co-parent with her. I just never considered the possibility of them being sealed to our son.

I have to go call my mom so I can calm down.

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you have joint custody, but who does the child reside with?

i'm not versed in the chi but i know that if it's joint custody nothing should be done (not even baptism) without your consent. (my older siblings had to be legally adopted by my dad before he could be sealed to them) however, all the temple will ask for is the living ordinance recommend, it's assumed the bishop and stake got the proper legal stuff out of the way first. if the bishop or stake doesn't care about following the rules they can give the recommend and it could happen. if it happens odds are it will not be revoked but left that way. the principle of "at least he's sealed to someone" will take over in the minds of those making the decisions. i know of 3 different occasions (2 in my own family) where ordinance work was done out of order, without "consent", and the ppl involved in the violation were given a slap on the wrist and the ordinance was "valid".

i would go to the bishop, the stake, etc immediately. do you know when they plan to be married?

He technically resides with my ex, but the divorce agreement says that joint custody means that the two of us have equal say in any decisions regarding our son.

Sorry, I will come back later after i've calmed down. I am really, really mad

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No, he cannot do this. Here's a break down of how it should work:

If a child is younger than 21, was not born in the covenant, and has not been previously sealed, he may be sealed to a natural parent and a step parent if, and only if, the following two conditions are satisfied.

1) The natural parent (ie, him) to which the child will be sealed has legal custody of the child AND physical custody of the child the majority of the time*.

2) The other natural parent (ie, you) has given signed consent. The consent must both name the child and the parents to which he will be sealed, and be presented at the temple.

If those two conditions are not met, the child cannot be sealed to a natural parent and a step parent.

You should notify your bishop immediately. He may contact the bishop of your ex-husband's ward to ensure that nothing untoward is done. If necessary, he may also notify the temple to give them a head's up, but the temple likely won't perform the ordinance without your written consent anyway.

If they want a reference, the policy regarding your situation is on pages 86-87 of the 2006 edition of the CHI. It's page 22 in the 2010 edition (under section 3.6.2).

* The requirement that the natural parent have custody the majority of the time is an addition to the 2010 edition of the handbook, and won't take effect until November 13th.

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You should notify your bishop immediately. He may contact the bishop of your ex-husband's ward to ensure that nothing untoward is done. If necessary, he may also notify the temple to give them a head's up, but the temple likely won't perform the ordinance without your written consent anyway.

Rachelle isn't a member anymore -- will that be a problem, since she kinda doesn't have a bishop?

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i understand what joint custody means. some of this i'm taking from my experience with my step son. often times a bishop will take the word of the residential parent and not look further. i would contact his bishop, with paperwork and make it very clear you do not give consent. once you have that covered i would go to the ex and let him know you know what he's up to and you don't give up your christmas. you gave the time on a false agreement. you do not have to honor that. the deception game is not ok.

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you have joint custody, but who does the child reside with?

i'm not versed in the chi but i know that if it's joint custody nothing should be done (not even baptism) without your consent. (my older siblings had to be legally adopted by my dad before he could be sealed to them) however, all the temple will ask for is the living ordinance recommend, it's assumed the bishop and stake got the proper legal stuff out of the way first. if the bishop or stake doesn't care about following the rules they can give the recommend and it could happen. if it happens odds are it will not be revoked but left that way. the principle of "at least he's sealed to someone" will take over in the minds of those making the decisions. i know of 3 different occasions (2 in my own family) where ordinance work was done out of order, without "consent", and the ppl involved in the violation were given a slap on the wrist and the ordinance was "valid".

i would go to the bishop, the stake, etc immediately. do you know when they plan to be married?

Here is another reason to make sure your bishop gets involved with his bishop and stake president. If Gwen is correct that the will not check for the signed consent, they don't even need a limited use recommend for the child if he is younger than 8. If you're really concerned about this, you'll need to get his priesthood leaders involved and have someone put the temple at which they will be sealed on notice.

I sure hope the temple checks these things. It would be absurd if they didn't.

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Talk to his bishop about your concerns. The bishop should be able to make sure there is no sealing done without your permission. Even if he had full custody, he would still have to have your permission, unless all your rights of parenthood had been revoked by a court.

The concept is, even though you are not a member, you may someday decide to become one again, and should have the right to your child being sealed to you as well.

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Rachelle isn't a member anymore -- will that be a problem, since she kinda doesn't have a bishop?

You're right. My apologies, Rachelle.

If you have a bishop or stake president in your area that you are on good terms with and can trust, get him involved. If not, contact his bishop and stake president directly (PM me if you need help with that). If they don't seem very helpful, contact the temple directly. I also wouldn't be above sending a letter to the Area Presidency if the bishop and stake president don't seem cooperative.

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worst case scenario (and i hate to suggest this but i know how hurtful it is to have things done behind your back under deception) write a letter saying you do not give consent, this not only is being done without your consent but under deception (his not telling you he was getting married and lying about why he wants the time). that if the church proceeds without your consent you will be contacting your lawyer and taking appropriate action. include a copy of the paperwork showing you have joint custody. send it to his bishop, his stake pres and the temple directly. make sure you include the name of your child and your ex so they know exactly what/who you are talking about.

unfortunately sometimes it feels like the church (administration) cares more about lawyers than what is right. if a lawsuit is threatened the stake is required to contact church headquarters about it. it should get their attention.

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If they want a reference, the policy regarding your situation is on pages 86-87 of the 2006 edition of the CHI. It's page 22 in the 2010 edition (under section 3.6.2).

Is that the same 2010 edition that no one is supposed to open until November 13?

(Just teasin', of course. I wouldn't be able to wait that long, either. :D )

Rachelle - It would cost money, but if you think it's worth it you can probably go back to court and try to get your divorce decree modified to prohibit any sealing of the child to stepmom. (You'd also want to think about getting a temporary injunction while the court makes up its mind on the modification.)

Won't necessarily keep ex-husband from fudging church procedure and getting the ordinance done anyways; but you'll have grounds to put him in jail if he does.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Rachelle, I'm so sorry you're going through more headaches because of this guy. I agree with everyone here that you need to contact his bishop (through another bishop or by yourself), and also the temple where they will be sealed.

It continues to surprise me that men who lie to their ex-wives can get a temple recommend. Honesty is a biggy in my book.

Best wishes,

applepansy

P.S. I didn't know you'd left the church. You've been in my thoughts but I don't spend a lot of time reading the boards. I wish you all the best.

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Is that the same 2010 edition that no one is supposed to open until November 13?

It is, indeed, the same book. But hey, if we're going to worry about priesthood leaders not following the instructions in the handbooks, then I'm going to feel free to not follow the instructions about when the instructions that they won't be following are to be made available.

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It is, indeed, the same book. But hey, if we're going to worry about priesthood leaders not following the instructions in the handbooks, then I'm going to feel free to not follow the instructions about when the instructions that they won't be following are to be made available.

[Channeling Bing Crosby]: As soon as I can figure out what that means, I'll come back with a crushing reply!

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Some thing to keep in mind, if, heaven forbid, the ordinance IS performed, while it may be "valid" in the eyes of the church, I have no doubt that our loving Heavenly Father will be greatly displeased with your husband and his deception (as well as with any church authority figures who played along with it, knowing what was going on). I would seriously question the "validity"* of the ordinance in HIS eyes, and His is the Final Opinion, so to speak, in these types of matters.

(I put "validity" in quotes, because I'm sure Heavenly Father will still grant your son, who is an innocent party in all this, the blessings that come from being Sealed, but I doubt He'll say "Too bad, so sad" to you when you're face to face with Him, from whom this Authority comes from, and asking to be Sealed to your son. It'll all be straightened out eventually, and deceptions will be undone, in my not so humble opinion. ^_^ )

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I've dealt with this kind of situation personally. My wife and I were both married before; she had a child from her previous marriage which was not a temple marriage and her son was not born under the covenant. She and I were married civily first and then 3 years later sealed in the temple. At the time we were sealed, we had her son sealed to me. She has full custody and the biological father has chosen to not have anything to do with his son's life.

Even with all of this, we had to obtain permission from the biological father for my son (that is how he is viewed within our family and to me and also him) sealed to me. We could have circumvented this "permission" aspect only under a condition where I had legally adopted my son. I had not done this at the time and therefore needed a certified letter from the biological father giving me permission to have the child sealed to me. I needed to furnish this documentation to my local priesthood leaders to even have a Living Ordinance recommend issued. And the temple clerk sat with my wife and I in preparation for the sealing ordinances and reviewed all of our paperwork as well. The permission letter was a VERY critical piece of documentation that all the leadership both locally and at the temple were quite serious about.

The bottom line here is that there is NO WAY under current procedures for your ex-husband to simply waltz on in to a temple and have a child sealed to him without your permission. Whether or not you are a member of the church does not make any difference. You are the bilogical parent and based on your post you have not given up your parental rights through adoption or through a voluntary surrender... so... your permission MUST be obtained.

Certainly get in touch with your ex-husband's Bishop and even the temple just to make sure that everyone is aware. But your ex would literally have to forge a letter... your signature... and commit fraud with a Notary Public to be sealed to your son without your permission.

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Thanks everyone so much for your responses. I am so grateful that the members of the church are still supportive of me despite my leave from the church. It is a huge testament to your character as Christians.

I am going to call my ex's bishop, he aught to be reasonable when I discuss this with him. I just now tried calling their ward but no answer/no machine. I'll keep trying. He is a very nice man, i'm sure that he will be understanding and sympathetic to the issue. To be completely fair, I don't believe my ex's future wife has any clue about the deception. I am pretty sure my ex told her I would be cool with it. She is certainly not the type to do something behind my back.

I agreed when we divorced that I would be supportive of my son's involvement of the church (so long as he desired to remain active) and that I would refrain from trashing the church doctrine in front of my kid. I have maintained that standard since the divorce was final, but my support of my son's involvement in the church does not mean that I am fine with a sealing to a woman who isn't his mother.

That upsets me, big time. I can't really explain why, and i'm sure it seems kind of silly because i'm not a member any longer. It's just a lot, his disfellowshipment was literally just lifted this October. I should have known to expect this soon, but I just didn't think about it. I'm kind of blindsided.

On another note, the SP is the one who issues recommends for sealings, is he not? Should I try contacting him too?

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The bottom line here is that there is NO WAY under current procedures for your ex-husband to simply waltz on in to a temple and have a child sealed to him without your permission. Whether or not you are a member of the church does not make any difference. You are the bilogical parent and based on your post you have not given up your parental rights through adoption or through a voluntary surrender... so... your permission MUST be obtained.

assuming current procedures are followed. if they are not, once all is said and done nothing will be done to "fix" the situation. they will just say "shame on you, next time.... follow procedure". i hope the priesthood in her area is following the rules. unfortunately i've seen several occasions where procedure was not followed. in these kinds of situations i think it's best to assume they will make a mistake, honest or intentional, and act according to that. be on the safe side because there is no undoing things later.

in the end she may give consent. but it should be by choice not deception. and to be honest i would not want my kid sealed to this woman till i knew the ex was going to do right by her and not end up in another divorce.

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That upsets me, big time. I can't really explain why, and i'm sure it seems kind of silly because i'm not a member any longer.

On another note, the SP is the one who issues recommends for sealings, is he not? Should I try contacting him too?

you go through both the bishop and sp so yes i would contact both.

not wanting your son sealed to her is totally understandable. when your son is 18 he can decide when and who he wants to be sealed to. but for now you have a right to say no. you can be supportive of your son's involvement in the church without giving that permission.

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That upsets me, big time. I can't really explain why, and i'm sure it seems kind of silly because i'm not a member any longer.

It has nothing to do with member or not. It has to do with the core of your identity as a mother. Somewhere deep down, it's possible that you view this as the first step in your son being taken away from you. Somewhere down the road, your ex might say "well, he sealed to my wife, and not to you, so she's the mother that really counts. You left the Church and can't be with him for eternity anyway, so it doesn't really matter." I'm sure you're afraid of this happening, whether you've formulated those thoughts fully yet or not.

On another note, the SP is the one who issues recommends for sealings, is he not? Should I try contacting him too?

For a limited use recommend (like for baptisms for youth and YSA), it's just the bishop. For "an all-access pass" (if you will), there is an interview with the bishop and with the stake president. A temple recommend has three signatures on it: the bishop's, the stake president's, and the recommend holder's own. After a living ordinance recommend expires, normal recommends may be renewed by members of the bishopric and the stake presidency. In this case, you ex will probably be meeting with the actual stake president.

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^Ryan, I considered that actually.

I spoke with my ex at great length about this today. The matter has been absolved, and he will not be having my son sealed to him and his new wife. Unless of course one day when my son is an adult he decides he wants that.

Thank you all so much for the help and support. It means a lot to me. Seriously, you have no idea how much you helped out a total stranger. Thank you.

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So my DH shared this one with me. This one hits home on several different levels for us as a family. I wanted to come on and share my opinions with you too.

1) If you have any doubts about your ex's sincerity and devotion to the gospel and the church guidelines, I feel it is your duty to contact both his Bishop and his Stake President about this incident. Share with them in a matter a fact way that you heard a rumor that he may be working without your consent to have the child sealed to him. A factor that I feel has been overlooked here thus far is that IF in fact he is doing this, he has to be doing so in a very deceptive way and outside of the guidelines for even being "worthy" of recieving ANY kind of temple recommend. And don't forget to mention your feelings on giving permission for it to occur... ;)

2) It used to be "required" for Bishop's to have contacted any and all ex spouses before giving a temple recommend after a membership was in jeopardy. I believe this is still the case and am sure that "MOE" or someone with access to the CHI can clarify. As in my case, this "procedure" is often overlooked for many reasons. In my case, my ex had charmed the socks off of everyone involved and convinced them it was needless. Not until I heard rumors of my ex's temple wedding date did I even realize he was trying to get a recommend as this was never his desire while with me. His behaviors and infedelities during our relationship were always played down and I feared that he would continue to live a double life with the aid of the church as a perfect alibi. I discussed my concerns, at length, with not only my priesthood leaders but also wise male friends who all encouraged me, thankfully, to work to find my ex's church leadership to inform them of the information I had about his tendencies and my experiences with him. Not out of revenge or hatred but out of love and genuine concern for his new fiance as well as respect for the church and what the guidelines are meant to prevent, regardless of it's shortfalls. I was finally able to locate them and was astonished to find that my ex had lied and deceived them in ways that I even thought he wasn't capable of. That information ended up landing my "formally disfellowshiped" ex husband in yet another church court where he was ultimately not allowed to marry in the temple at that time. I felt that he had finally been held responsible for not only what he had done to me in our marriage but what he had begun to carry forward into his new relationship. His fiance ended up staying with him and I don't know much more of the outcome since he dropped off the "planet" when it came to me and our son very soon after. I know I did the right thing and have never felt concerned about her or their children together or their lives as I feel I did all that I could to prevent any disception from carrying forward into his new relationship or any misuse of the church to perpetuate. In doing such, I also sent a very clear message to him that if he planned to continue his behavior that I was not going to allow him to use me or our son to hide behind which has allowed us to move on and move up in ways I couldn't have imagined back then.

3) This might get a little deep but after much experience both in my life and with my parents lives, I can't help but to share my thoughts on the actual sealing itself. Many believe, even members of the church, that a sealing somehow bonds a husband to a wife and vice versa and subsequently any children bonded to them like a chain. However, this is not exactly correct. Priesthood members are given their power and authority in a way that is passed from one man to another and can be traced all the way back to Adam. A man who has "given" this authority to another is not considered "bonded" to that person although in some respects he is and it is recorded. The same goes for sealings. A sealing does not "bond" or "chain" anyone to anyone but, in fact, gives that person power, authority, and blessings and is recorded as such. Because women don't officially hold the Priesthood in the church it is recorded in relation to the husband/man/Priesthood holder and therefore she and any children sealed are linked to his "chain" of Priesthood. Anyone who has heard the sealing blessing "should" understand at that point that no one is sealed together but put UNDER a blessing. It would be difficult for any loving mother to see their child chained or bonded to another woman, especially a stranger, however, a sealing would NOT do such a thing. Rather, a sealing simply bestows a blessing upon your child that other people wait decades and even centuries into the next life in order to obtain. No matter what your beliefs are about the gospel or about the church, no sealing will ever change in God's or the Saviour's eyes that your son is your child for eternity no matter how he experiences a sealing. Just as when my boys, if they so choose, are sealed to a future spouse, that does not "break" any "chain" or "bond" that that child had being sealed under me. It simply allows them to bear children who will recieve sealing blessings "automatically". Technically, if they both were sealed to their parents they are already under a sealing and only because it is commanded and because they may bear children, that they are in "need" of sharing a sealing ordinance together. Divorces don't affect sealing "blessings" which is why there is no such thing as a temple divorce only sealing clearances and sealing cancellations. Sealing cancellations are rare and I, personally believe, are used in serious cases of abuse, manipulation, and deception. This also explains why men can be sealed under more than one woman and a woman only under one man. Contrary to popular belief, it has nothing to do with polygamy. A man who holds the Preisthood chain can be sealed under more than one woman just as an elder can bestow the Priesthood on more than one man. It would be silly to think that a man bestowing the Priesthood is "chained" to that man, just as it is silly to think then that that man could never again bestow the Preisthood "chain" on anyone else.

Shew...hope this helps and doesn't ruffle to many "feathers"....stepping back into my non-LDS.netters world....

a.k.a Tewonda

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