The Book Of Mormon

[Guest MrsS]

Here is a challenge for any of you who think that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon. Keep in mind as you read this, that you need to put yourself in the year 1828.

The Challenge of the Book of Mormon

John M. Pontius

Condensed from a talk by Elder Hugh B. Brown

1. Write a history of an ancient Tibet covering a period of 2200 B.C. to 400 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America.

2. You must be 23 years of age.

3. You must have no more than three years of formal education and must have spent your life in a backwoods farming community

4. Your book must be 522 pages, and over 300,000 words in length.

5. Your history must be written on the basis of what you know. There was no library, and no published works on Ancient America for Joseph Smith to reference, so you must use none. There is to be no research of any kind.

6. Other than a few grammatical errors and corrections, you must make no changes in the text. The first edition you dictate to your secretary must stand forever.

7. This history is to contain the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.

8. You must describe their religious, economic, political, and social cultures and institutions. You must cover every phase of their society, including the names of their coins, weights and measures.

9. You must change your style of writing many times to make the book appear to have been written by many authors since you will claim many ancient authors contributed to the book, each with his own style.

10. You will weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ, and the pattern of Christian living, and the Mosaic law.

11. You must claim that your narrative is not fiction at all, but a true and sacred history.

12. You must include in your book 54 chapters dealing with wars, 21 historical chapters, 55 chapters on prophecy and visions, and remember when you begin to write on visions and prophecies you must have your record agree meticulously with the bible. You must write 71 chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and here again, you must check every statement against a flawless memory of the Bible (since you can have no resource documents,) or you will be proven a fraud. You must write 21 chapters on the ministry of Christ, and everything that you claim He said and did and every testimony you write in your book must agree absolutely with the New Testament even though you may not reference it.

13. Many of the facts, claims and ideas and statements given as truth in your writings must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of your claims must prove to be the direct opposite of the prevailing worldly beliefs of the time.

14. Included in your narration will be authentic modes of travel; whether or not those ancient people used fire; descriptions of their clothing, crops, animals, roads, war strategies, mourning customs, and types of government. You must invent about 280 new names that will stand up under scrutiny through the years as to their historical roots and derivations.

15. You will have to use properly, figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, expositions, descriptions, oratory, epic, lyric, logic, and parables.

16. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, and you must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of those eager to prove it a forgery, and those who are most competent to expose every flaw in it.

17. Through investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 175 years, your critics must verify your claims and prove detail after detail to be true; for many of the details you put into your book are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet and won’t be discovered until after your death.

18. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, declaring it to be the word of God, and another witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.

19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume.

20. Many theories and ideas as to your book’s origin must arise, and after examine all the facts, they must all fall. You have claimed that your knowledge has come from a divine origin, and this claim continues to stand as the only possible origin and explanation. The strength of this explanation must not decrease as time passes, but actually increase to the point to where it becomes the only logical explanation.

21. Your record is to fulfill many Bible prophecies, even the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom delivered, its purpose and its accomplishments.

22. You must call down from heaven an angel in the middle of the day and have him bear witness to four honest, dignified citizens of your community and the world. They must remain steadfast in their testimony, not for profit, or gain, but under the great sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death beds. You shall put their testimony to the test by becoming enemies to these men, and yet have them never recant their words.

23. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, national and international personalities, and scholars for the next 175 years must accept your history and its teachings even to the point of laying down their lives rather than deny their testimony of it.

24. You must include in your record this promise, “And when ye shall receive these things I would exhort you, that ye would as God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask, with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

25. Millions must bear record to the world for the next 175 years that they know the record to be true because they put your promise to the test and found it to be true. The truth of it was manifested unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost.

26. Over 80,000 competent salesmen must be convinced of the truth of your book that they gladly give up two or more years of their lives to take it to all parts of the world for distribution. They not only pay their own way during these two years, but return bearing their testimonies that their time spent will remain as one of the highlights of their lives. They receive nothing for their journey and efforts but the joy of having shared your book with others.

27. Your book is not only to raise the standards of millions of people, but do it in such a way that those people may become one of the great moral, ethical and dynamic marvels of the day. They must become known and receive world renown for this.

28. To substantiate your claims you must for the next 20 years watch those that follow you, your family, and dearest of your loved ones be persecuted, driven time after time from their homes, beaten, tortured, starved, frozen and killed. Tens of thousands must undergo the most extreme hardships in your presence just because they believe your claims concerning the origin and content of what your have written to be true.

29. You must gain no wealth from your wok but many times lose all that you have. Like those that believe you, you must submit yourself to the most vile persecutions. And after 20 years of this, give your own life in a very savage and brutal manner for your testimony concerning your book. All this you must do willingly and without remorse.

30. Start right now and produce this record, which covers 2700 years of history, doing it, not in the peaceful atmosphere of your community, but under the most trying of circumstances, which includes being driven from your home several times, and receiving constant threats upon your life. Please have your book completed; talk a friend into mortgaging his farm to raise the money to have it printed, and do it all in under 60 working days.

[Jason]

Better yet, let's make claims for which nothing can ever be proved or denied. Let's alter our understanding of this text so that each time something appears to discredit our text, we can make up a new theory (like other races inhabiting the Americas, even though this actually negates the theory of a promised land for God's people alone...).

Then, as we alter our theories for a generally benign text that could plausibly have taken place in multiple locations throughout the western hemisphere, we can continue to subscribe to a literal event, though no known place exists.

That should make it easy. And let's change locations from Tibet to Antartica. That way, anything found might give our believers a shred of hope, all the while knowing that it doesn't matter what is found or not found, that our believers will keep the faith no matter what!

[Dr T]

Hello MrsS,

That is an interesting challenge.

I'm not well versed or as well read as I assume you are in the LDS literature and therefore have a lot of questions to round out my understanding. Please bear with me. Know that I am not trying to discredit or be insulting with my questions. I'm just trying to take a critical approach to understanding. I'm sure this will be a long journey for me. Thanks for the opportunity. Lets take a look at your challenge.

Reading the propositions you listed and not knowing of any resources for verification, here are my questions/observations:

My questions are based on the # they were listed in your opening post (OP):

#1. Has there been confirmation that the BOM was based on factual accounts of ancient America? What other documentation confirms this?

#6. Have you seen a copy of the first edition of the BOM? Have there been any changes to substantive passages in comparison with that? Is there even a copy of the first edition still available to the public to confirm this? Are we certain that the dictated version has stood from its inception?

#7. Has the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people been validated through other means/methods/researchers/archeological excavations, etc?

#8. Have these things been unequivocally verified?

#9. (I didn't know different contributing authors wrote the BOM). Who were these other writers?

#10. Why the Mosaic Law? Should I assume that the law given through Moses was/is the exact same in the BOM and the first 5 books of the OT? Also, what is meant by the religion of Jesus Christ? Is this the same or different than the Biblical accounts?

#11. Many sacred writings claim they are not fictional. You seem to assert that the BOM is not fictional. How is this confirmed?

#12. Are these wars documented elsewhere? Historical chapters accurate and able to be confirmed? Prophecies all fulfilled? Any prophesies not fulfilled or proven wrong? Has anyone gone through the BOM and the NT to see if they are in flawless agreement? If so, can you give me a reference?

#13. Can you give me some examples of this?

#16. Have you heard of people (experts) disputing this point?

#17. Does this truly stand up or is this only confirmed through belief/worldview?

#18. There are no contradictions, absurd or impossible statements in the BOM?

#20. Worldview or point of view (POV) of a believer or can these also be understood as fact by nonbelievers. It appears that this would have to be the case if it is truly incontrovertible.

#22. Did any of these ever recant their statements?

#29. Do so willingly? Was Joseph Smiths' death at the jail “willingly”?

Again, these questions are asked because of my lack of knowledge. I first have to see if, when examined, the propositions listed are able to stand up to analysis. Thank you for the challenge Mrs.S. Please let me know where the errors in my questions are and provide me with other resources where appropriate.

I appreciate your time and ideas,

Dr. T

[Ray]

If you’ll allow me, MrsS,

Q#1: Has there been confirmation that the BOM was based on factual accounts of ancient America? What other documentation confirms this?

A#1: Yes. Writings by modern prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ confirm this.

Q#6: Have you seen a copy of the first edition of the BOM? Have there been any changes to substantive passages in comparison with that? Is there even a copy of the first edition still available to the public to confirm this? Are we certain that the dictated version has stood from its inception?

A#6: Yes. No. Yes. If your “we” includes me, then yes.

Q#7: Has the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people been validated through other means/methods/researchers/archeological excavations, etc?

A#7: Yes.

Q#8: Have these things been unequivocally verified?

A#8: Yes, though some still choose to not believe it.

Q#9: (I didn't know different contributing authors wrote the BOM). Who were these other writers?

A#9: I may miss a few, but the words of the book are from Nephi (several people have that same name, btw), Jacob, Enos, Omni, Alma, Mosiah, Mormon, Moroni, Ether, and Joseph Smith (who translated all of their writings for us).

Q#10: Why the Mosaic Law? Should I assume that the law given through Moses was/is the exact same in the BOM and the first 5 books of the OT? Also, what is meant by the religion of Jesus Christ? Is this the same or different than the Biblical accounts?

A#10: Because those people were told to follow the Mosaic Law until that law was fulfilled. I don’t suggest that you assume anything, but the answer is yes. That’s a question for MrsS, since she is one who used that phrase, but I would guess that she was referring to the religion which teaches about Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is a different account than what we have recorded in the Bible, but the same basic teachings were giving to the people in both hemispheres.

Q#11: Many sacred writings claim they are not fictional. You seem to assert that the BOM is not fictional. How is this confirmed?

A#11: This is confirmed by God and people who have received a witness from God.

Q#12: Are these wars documented elsewhere? Historical chapters accurate and able to be confirmed? Prophecies all fulfilled? Any prophesies not fulfilled or proven wrong? Has anyone gone through the BOM and the NT to see if they are in flawless agreement? If so, can you give me a reference?

A#12: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes to some that have not been fulfilled (yet), No to prophesies that have been proved wrong. And yes, me.

Q#13: Can you give me some examples of this?

A#13: 1. The belief that knowledge of Jesus Christ, or the gospel, was limited to people in what we now call the eastern hemisphere of the Earth until people from that hemisphere conveyed that knowledge to people in what we now call the western hemisphere of the Earth. 2. The belief that knowledge of Jesus Christ began to be spread by people in the eastern hemisphere who were alive or born after the birth of Jesus Christ. 3. The belief that revelation and miracles should cease or have ceased.

Q#16: Have you heard of people (experts) disputing this point?

A#16: Yes. Heh, and don’t ask me what I think of some people who are called “experts”.

Q#17: Does this truly stand up or is this only confirmed through belief/worldview?

A#17: I say it truly stands up, but feel free to tell me what you think.

Q#18: There are no contradictions, absurd or impossible statements in the BOM?

A#18: No contradictions. No absurd statements. Nothing is impossible with God.

Q#20: Worldview or point of view (POV) of a believer or can these also be understood as fact by nonbelievers? It appears that this would have to be the case if it is truly incontrovertible.

A#20: Many facts revealed in the Book of Mormon have been understood as fact by people who do not believe the Book of Mormon.

Q#22: Did any of these ever recant their statements?

A#22: No.

Q#29: Do so willingly? Was Joseph Smiths' death at the jail “willingly”?

A#29: Yes, in the same sense that Jesus Christ died “willingly” for all of us.

[Jason]

If you’ll allow me, MrsS,

Q#1: Has there been confirmation that the BOM was based on factual accounts of ancient America? What other documentation confirms this?

A#1: Yes. Writings by modern prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ confirm this.

That's circular logic Ray. That's no different than saying the Bible's true because the Bible says it's true.

Q#7: Has the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people been validated through other means/methods/researchers/archeological excavations, etc?

A#7: Yes.

Q#8: Have these things been unequivocally verified?

A#8: Yes, though some still choose to not believe it.

Funny, but nobody's seen this evidence you speak of Ray. Even FARMS and FAIR can't say what you just did.

[Ray]

People alive today saying that a record of people in the past is true is not the same as people saying that the book they wrote is true.

And the evidence presented by FARMS and FAIR is in fact validating those issues.

And Jason, please be sure to get enough vitamins today, because your body needs all the help it can get.

[Jason]

People alive today saying that a record of people in the past is true is not the same as people saying that the book they wrote is true.

Without evidence, it's no different. People who have a vested interest in something, are too biased to be a source of truth.

And the evidence presented by FARMS and FAIR is in fact validating those issues.

Not to the satisfaction of the scientific community. That's what the Scientific Method is all about Ray, convincing even those who don't believe that you're right in spite of it all.

[Ray]

Jason,

According to your logic, or the logic you’re using, you can only learn truth from someone who DOESN”T know it, because if you learn the truth from someone who DOES know it, you’ll say he is biased and reject him.

And btw, you can use the scientific methods as a pattern for learning the truths that I and other people have discovered, so repeat the steps we took to learn the truth while trusting only in God.

[inactivetx]

Everytime I read about the 'challenge' and am always amazed that a critic of the Church doesn't point out that Joseph Smith was visited by Moroni FOUR years before the coming of the BoM. That gives a person a long time to forumulate a story line. In light of this, the '60 day' translation time frame could be a stretch. Anyways, just to play devil's advocate. I think the BoM is scripture regardless.

[Jason]

Jason,

According to your logic, or the logic you’re using, you can only learn truth from someone who DOESN”T know it, because if you learn the truth from someone who DOES know it, you’ll say he is biased and reject him.

No, Im saying that "Dr. T" is looking for outside confirmation of those things that Mormons would proclaim as undisuptable facts. That such outside confirmation is wanting is what Im trying to point out, in spite of your claims.

And btw, you can use the scientific methods as a pattern for learning the truths that I and other people have discovered, so repeat the steps we took to learn the truth while trusting only in God.

There's nothing scientific about prayer and warm-fuzzies.

[Dr T]

Thank you Ray, for your thoughts on this. Unfortunately, the "Yes" & "No" answers you gave are no more validation than the OP. Being part of the LDS church, I expect the "yes and no" answers you provided. These answers are no more evidence than the OP propositions. Here are my inital comments about what you wrote.

Q#1: Has there been confirmation that the BOM was based on factual accounts of ancient America? What other documentation confirms this?

A#1: Yes. Writings by modern prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ confirm this.

OK. Which articles? Reference? Any external from the church? Any secular confirmation?

Q#6: Have you seen a copy of the first edition of the BOM? Have there been any changes to substantive passages in comparison with that? Is there even a copy of the first edition still available to the public to confirm this? Are we certain that the dictated version has stood from its inception?

A#6: Yes. No. Yes. If your “we” includes me, then yes.

Where did you have an opportunity to view the first edition? Do I have access to that first edition as a average Joe? Is it purchasable on the internet? If so, where and how much does it cost? Can u point me to a written reference where the two books are held in juxposition for analysis?

Q#7: Has the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people been validated through other means/methods/researchers/archeological excavations, etc?

A#7: Yes.

Can you elaborate. Author/expert, reference?

Q#8: Have these things been unequivocally verified?

A#8: Yes, though some still choose to not believe it.

Again, will you please provide me with some reference material beyond the church?

Q#9: (I didn't know different contributing authors wrote the BOM). Who were these other writers?

A#9: I may miss a few, but the words of the book are from Nephi (several people have that same name, btw), Jacob, Enos, Omni, Alma, Mosiah, Mormon, Moroni, Ether, and Joseph Smith (who translated all of their writings for us).

That is intereting. Thanks, I didn't know that.

Q#10: Why the Mosaic Law? Should I assume that the law given through Moses was/is the exact same in the BOM and the first 5 books of the OT? Also, what is meant by the religion of Jesus Christ? Is this the same or different than the Biblical accounts?

A#10: Because those people were told to follow the Mosaic Law until that law was fulfilled. I don’t suggest that you assume anything, but the answer is yes. That’s a question for MrsS, since she is one who used that phrase, but I would guess that she was referring to the religion which teaches about Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is a different account than what we have recorded in the Bible, but the same basic teachings were giving to the people in both hemispheres.

What do you mean by fulfilled?

Q#11: Many sacred writings claim they are not fictional. You seem to assert that the BOM is not fictional. How is this confirmed?

A#11: This is confirmed by God and people who have received a witness from God.

I'm sorry- maybe I chose the wrong word here. I meant more along the lines of "SUBSTANTIATE implies the offering of evidence that sustains the contention <the claims have yet to be substantiated>. VERIFY implies the establishing of correspondence of actual facts or details with those proposed or guessed at <all statements of fact in the article have been verified>. AUTHENTICATE implies establishing genuineness by adducing legal or official documents." Maybe these are better words. Now, can has this been done?

Q#12: Are these wars documented elsewhere? Historical chapters accurate and able to be confirmed? Prophecies all fulfilled? Any prophesies not fulfilled or proven wrong? Has anyone gone through the BOM and the NT to see if they are in flawless agreement? If so, can you give me a reference?

A#12: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes to some that have not been fulfilled (yet), No to prophesies that have been proved wrong. And yes, me.

Where are the was documented? Who confirmed the historical accounts? So you're saying that no prophecies have been proved wrong?

Q#13: Can you give me some examples of this?

A#13: 1. The belief that knowledge of Jesus Christ, or the gospel, was limited to people in what we now call the eastern hemisphere of the Earth until people from that hemisphere conveyed that knowledge to people in what we now call the western hemisphere of the Earth. 2. The belief that knowledge of Jesus Christ began to be spread by people in the eastern hemisphere who were alive or born after the birth of Jesus Christ. 3. The belief that revelation and miracles should cease or have ceased.

I don't understand your third point. Please explain.

Q#16: Have you heard of people (experts) disputing this point?

A#16: Yes. Heh, and don’t ask me what I think of some people who are called “experts”.

Q#17: Does this truly stand up or is this only confirmed through belief/worldview?

A#17: I say it truly stands up, but feel free to tell me what you think.

I don't have an opionion on this yet. It too early in my exploration. I'm only challenging the poposion and trying to find out if they are confimed of just consistent beliefs that are held because that is what is expected from church members.

Q#18: There are no contradictions, absurd or impossible statements in the BOM?

A#18: No contradictions. No absurd statements. Nothing is impossible with God.

Would you feel comfortable altering your statment to "Nothing that is logically possible for God to do is impossible."?

Q#20: Worldview or point of view (POV) of a believer or can these also be understood as fact by nonbelievers? It appears that this would have to be the case if it is truly incontrovertible.

A#20: Many facts revealed in the Book of Mormon have been understood as fact by people who do not believe the Book of Mormon.

Such as?

Q#22: Did any of these ever recant their statements?

A#22: No.

I'll have to take your word for it. If they haven't I guess we wouldn't find any documentation about that...

Q#29: Do so willingly? Was Joseph Smiths' death at the jail “willingly”?

A#29: Yes, in the same sense that Jesus Christ died “willingly” for all of us.

Did Joseph Smith lay down his life in meekness like Jesus' account?

Ray, thank you for having this discussion with me. I'm sure, like many religious sites, people come here to argue and "prove each other wrong." Mrs.S posted what sounded like concrete, unquestionable proof that the BOM was not fiction. Based on the info we've covered so far, these are still assertions without substantiation. That's all I'm looking for.

Thanks for your ideas,

Dr. T

P.S. I can't figure out how to quote other's posts. How do you do that?

[Snow]

Dr. T,

Ray is just blowing hot air.

- There is no independent verification of the Book of Mormon - as yet anyway.

-You can see the textual changes over time through a critical text of the Book of Mormon that was published 1984-87 by the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/b...ditions_eom.htm It’s scholarly work, not a mass production so you would have to specifically seek it out. I doubt it is available on the internet though various people have web published their thoughts about textual changes.

-I don’t think you will find much in the Book of Mormon, if anything, that theologically is disagreeable to a student of the New Testament. For the most part, uniquely LDS doctrine is not found in the Book of Mormon. Some critics have claimed that there are some internal inconsistencies between the BoM and the NT but I personally do not agree. If you are interested, google it.

-The Book of Mormon has some prophecies that have been fulfilled, but like those of the Bible, there is nothing that would prove the BoM beyond any doubt.

-Yes, there appear to be some contradictions in the Book of Mormon but far, far, far less than in the Bible, and like the apologists of the Bible, Book of Mormon apologists have answers to the apparent inconsistencies. Here’s an example of a seeming contradiction:

2 Nephi 5:15

And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

2 Nephi 5:16

And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land....

Beyond that sort of thing, there are some apparent anachronisms, and absurdities but in my opinion, much fewer than in the Bible... not that it means something to line it up against the Bible, I’m just offering a comparison to something you are familiar with.

-Joseph Smith ultimately was in jail of his own volition though his ultimate death wasn’t the epitome of meekness

[Maureen]

P.S. I can't figure out how to quote other's posts. How do you do that?

A quick lesson:

To show a quote you do this:

[ quote ]This is a test, this is just a test!![ /quote ] - minus the spaces I've added before and after "quote".

Hope that helps Dr. T. Any relation to Mr. T?

M.

[Dr T]

Thank you Maureen. I'll try this in the future.

No relation to Mr. T or Dr. J.

Just plain old Dr. T (the non-mohawk having, gold laden, or NBA level athletic one)

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Jason,

According to your logic, or the logic you’re using, you can only learn truth from someone who DOESN”T know it, because if you learn the truth from someone who DOES know it, you’ll say he is biased and reject him.

No, I’m saying that "Dr. T" is looking for outside confirmation of those things that Mormons would proclaim as undisputable facts. That such outside confirmation is wanting is what I’m trying to point out, in spite of your claims.

Yeah, I know, but you’re also saying that “outside confirmation” must come from people who are and never will be members of the Church while knowing that the Church is true.

Heh, which makes we wonder why you would choose to follow someone who knew the Church was true and then still didn’t choose to join it.

And on a related point, it could be that you haven’t read the right kind of books, Jason, because I’ve found a lot of corroboration of facts from people “outside” the Church as well as in it, and the reason they didn’t choose to accept the church or the gospel and related issues was because they were still grappling with the traditions of men. And if you’re open to suggestion, I recommend that you read some books by Hugh Nibley, a proficient scholar and member of the Church who cites information from artifacts and documents found all over the world from the ancient past and these latter days.

<div class='quotemain'>

And btw, you can use the scientific methods as a pattern for learning the truths that I and other people have discovered, so repeat the steps we took to learn the truth while trusting only in God.

There's nothing scientific about prayer and warm-fuzzies.

Heh, prayer is a type of communication, or a means to receive information from someone, namely God, so using communication to talk with God is just as “scientific” as using communication from anybody else. And just as you might have to wrestle with someone to grasp what they are trying to tell you, you might also have to wrestle with God until you are able to understand what He tells you, which at first you may only perceive to be those “warm-fuzzy” feelings you’re talking about until you learn to interpret them into your language.

And btw, as any good “scientist” will tell you, it’s always better to go to the source of all good information instead of trusting those who say they are copying, which is why I recommend that you talk with God when you really want to know Him.

[Dr T]

Hello Snow,

It's nice to meet you. It was also a pleasure to read your post. Thank you for the link. That site looks interesting. The thing I really enjoyed about your post was that it went beyond "yes" and "no." It gave me other places to look, gave me examples and it was respectful. I look forward to learning from you.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Dr. T,

I’m trying to answer your questions as simply as I know how, without going to all of the trouble of trying to do all of your research for you, and if at any time you want to learn more than I am telling you, I recommend that you investigate any other source of good information you can find while checking with God to make sure it is true.

Q#1: Has there been confirmation that the BOM was based on factual accounts of ancient America? What other documentation confirms this?

A#1: Yes. Writings by modern prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ confirm this.

Q#1b: OK. Which articles? Reference? Any external from the church? Any secular confirmation?

A#1b: No specific articles come to my mind right now, but because I have read that information in magazines and books written by prophets and apostles of the Church, I know it is out there.

To Reference those articles it’s simply a matter of Searching the main Church website at lds.org to Find those talks from prophets and apostles. It’s not hard once you try it.

Yes, FARMS and FAIR are external to the Church, although they both receive funds from the Church and others who are interested in supporting them. And as I just told Jason, you can find many references to secular sources of information by reading some books written by Hugh Nibley. Or, you can go to a public library near you to find those sources of information for yourself from all of the information we have available.

Q#6: Have you seen a copy of the first edition of the BOM? Have there been any changes to substantive passages in comparison with that? Is there even a copy of the first edition still available to the public to confirm this? Are we certain that the dictated version has stood from its inception?

A#6: Yes. No. Yes. If your “we” includes me, then yes.

Q#6b: Where did you have an opportunity to view the first edition? Do I have access to that first edition as an average Joe? Is it purchasable on the internet? If so, where and how much does it cost? Can u point me to a written reference where the two books are held in juxposition for analysis?

A#6b: You originally asked if anyone had seen “a copy of the first edition”, and I told you that I have seen a copy, which I acquired by purchase at Amazon.com for about $20 American. I know of no first editions which are available, if you’re referring to the original printing of 3000 copies, but we do have some fragments from the one of the original copies written by the hand of Joseph Smith and some of his scribes, which was left in a box near the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple and got wet after a mob destroyed it. I believe those fragments or some of those fragments can be viewed at the Church History building, which is near the Visitor’s Center in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Q#7: Has the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people been validated through other means/methods/researchers/archeological excavations, etc?

A#7: Yes.

Q#7b: Can you elaborate. Author/expert, reference?

A#7b: Search FARMS, FAIR, and books by Hugh Nibley as already mentioned.

Q#8: Have these things been unequivocally verified?

A#8: Yes, though some still choose to not believe it.

Q#8b: Again, will you please provide me with some reference material beyond the church?

I’m not going to send you any books or articles, and I’m not even going to do the little bit of research it would take to find out the names of some of those books or articles, but I have told you about some sources you can use, and none of them is better than God.

Q#9: (I didn't know different contributing authors wrote the BOM). Who were these other writers?

A#9: I may miss a few, but the words of the book are from Nephi (several people have that same name, btw), Jacob, Enos, Omni, Alma, Mosiah, Mormon, Moroni, Ether, and Joseph Smith (who translated all of their writings for us).

Comment#9. That is interesting. Thanks, I didn't know that.

Reply#9: You’re welcome. I recalled all that from memory.

Q#10: Why the Mosaic Law? Should I assume that the law given through Moses was/is the exact same in the BOM and the first 5 books of the OT? Also, what is meant by the religion of Jesus Christ? Is this the same or different than the Biblical accounts?

A#10: Because those people were told to follow the Mosaic Law until that law was fulfilled. I don’t suggest that you assume anything, but the answer is yes. That’s a question for MrsS, since she is one who used that phrase, but I would guess that she was referring to the religion which teaches about Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is a different account than what we have recorded in the Bible, but the same basic teachings were giving to the people in both hemispheres.

Q#10b: What do you mean by fulfilled?

A#10b: The Mosaic law consisted of principles and ordinances God gave His people to help prepare them for the ultimate knowledge and sacrifice of their Messiah, and all of those laws were fulfilled and superceded by the atonement and gospel of Jesus Christ.

Or if you simply wanted to know what fulfilled means, it simply means “it is finished”

Q#11: Many sacred writings claim they are not fictional. You seem to assert that the BOM is not fictional. How is this confirmed?

A#11: This is confirmed by God and people who have received a witness from God.

Q#11b: I'm sorry- maybe I chose the wrong word here. I meant more along the lines of "SUBSTANTIATE implies the offering of evidence that sustains the contention <the claims have yet to be substantiated>. VERIFY implies the establishing of correspondence of actual facts or details with those proposed or guessed at <all statements of fact in the article have been verified>. AUTHENTICATE implies establishing genuineness by adducing legal or official documents." Maybe these are better words. Now, can has this been done?

A#11b: Yes, God has provided that evidence which everyone who receives substantiates.

And btw, there are also some interesting books and articles which are out there for you to read, and study, and pray about, which will help you receive the same evidence.

Q#12: Are these wars documented elsewhere? Historical chapters accurate and able to be confirmed? Prophecies all fulfilled? Any prophesies not fulfilled or proven wrong? Has anyone gone through the BOM and the NT to see if they are in flawless agreement? If so, can you give me a reference?

A#12: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes to some that have not been fulfilled (yet), No to prophesies that have been proved wrong. And yes, me.

Q#12b: Where are the wars documented? Who confirmed the historical accounts? So you're saying that no prophecies have been proved wrong?

A#12b: The wars are documented in writings, where most other writings are “documented”.

But instead of reading books and writings written by other people I suggest that you seek your confirmation from God. And yes, I am saying that no prophecies of God, including those documented in the Book of Mormon, have ever been proved wrong,

Q#13: Can you give me some examples of this?

A#13: 1. The belief that knowledge of Jesus Christ, or the gospel, was limited to people in what we now call the eastern hemisphere of the Earth until people from that hemisphere conveyed that knowledge to people in what we now call the western hemisphere of the Earth. 2. The belief that knowledge of Jesus Christ began to be spread by people in the eastern hemisphere who were alive or born after the birth of Jesus Christ. 3. The belief that revelation and miracles should cease or have ceased.

Q#13b: I don't understand your third point. Please explain.

A#13b: To recap, the original challenge was to write a book in which:

"many of the facts, claims, ideas and statements given as truth in the book must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of your claims must prove to be the direct opposite of the prevailing worldly beliefs of the time."

I then stated the belief that revelation and miracles should cease or have ceased as an example of a fact, claim, idea and statement that was entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world at the time the Book of Mormon was written (as a translation), because the prevailing beliefs of the world maintained that revelations and miracles from God had ceased or should have ceased. And many prevailing beliefs in the world maintained that God has never spoken.

Q#17: Does this truly stand up or is this only confirmed through belief/worldview?

A#17: I say it truly stands up, but feel free to tell me what you think.

Q#17b: I don't have an opinion on this yet. It’s too early in my exploration. I'm only challenging the proposition and trying to find out if they are confirmed or just consistent beliefs that are held because that is what is expected from church members.

A#17b: Congratulations on your decision to discover if we [LDS] are worshipping God.

Q#18: There are no contradictions, absurd or impossible statements in the BOM?

A#18: No contradictions. No absurd statements. Nothing is impossible with God.

Q#18b: Would you feel comfortable altering your statement to "Nothing that is logically possible for God to do is impossible."?

A#18b: Yes. For instance, God must be God, because God cannot not be God.

Q#20: Worldview or point of view (POV) of a believer or can these also be understood as fact by nonbelievers? It appears that this would have to be the case if it is truly incontrovertible.

A#20: Many facts revealed in the Book of Mormon have been understood as fact by people who do not believe the Book of Mormon.

Q#20b: Such as?

A#20b: The fact that the ancient continent(s) of America were occupied by people with a fairly high degree of civilization, in many different groups or “nations”, with a culture influenced by both Egypt and “Jewish” origins, for instance. Also, the fact that Jesus is the Christ and God of this whole Earth; and not just for the people who live and have lived in the eastern hemisphere of this Earth

Q#29: Do so willingly? Was Joseph Smiths' death at the jail “willingly”?

A#29: Yes, in the same sense that Jesus Christ died “willingly” for all of us.

Q#29b: Did Joseph Smith lay down his life in meekness like Jesus' account?

A#29b: Yes, he knew he was going like a lamb to the slaughter, and yet he went anyway, knowing there was no other way to save his people than to go with those who came after him.

And btw, although you can’t tell it sometimes from some of Snow’s comments, he and I are real buddies, and he gives me a hard time sometimes only because he likes to play the “Devil’s Advocate”. :)

[Dr T]

Thanks for your ideas Ray. It's great that you and Snow are friends. I love commerodery-makes for more fun. I'm sure I'll learn a lot here (or at least ask questions to help in my understanding).

Dr. T

[Ray]

You're welcome Dr. T.

Will you do me a favor now?

Go over to the FARMS website and do a SEARCH for the key words "Hugh Nibley", then return and report something about what you have learned about him for us. I'm sure we would all find it to be interesting. :)

And btw, you can get to their site by clicking on this link: http://www.farmsresearch.com/

[Dr T]

Ray,

Thanks for the link. I've only glanced at it thus far. It looks really fun! I look forward to reading about the evidences and apparent contradiction responses.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Snow]

Hello Snow,

It's nice to meet you. It was also a pleasure to read your post. Thank you for the link. That site looks interesting. The thing I really enjoyed about your post was that it went beyond "yes" and "no." It gave me other places to look, gave me examples and it was respectful. I look forward to learning from you.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

Here's my off the cuff take on the validity of the Book of Mormon:

The main arguments against the Book of Mormon:

1. Religious: Basically, it can't be true because it conflicts with somebody's notion of the Bible being the be-all, end-all of scripture.

2. There is a lack of any hard evidence (archeology) to support the Book of Mormon narratives.

3. Some stories from the Book of Mormon seem rationally implausible.

4. DNA - some folks think that DNA evidence disproves the Book of Mormon's explanation of the origin of Native American peoples

I personally don't find any of those arguments to be terribly threatening. Of course, critics may disagree.

The main arguments for the Book of Mormon:

1. So far there is no hard evidence - like the word "Mormon" scratched into a 2000 year old wall. But, there is ample linguistic and literary and parallelistic evidence that many people find very compelling. These are typically rather sophisticated arguments and require an interest in such things to study and appreciate.

Unless you are going to go buy a book and really dig into it, the best places to start are:

http://farms.byu.edu

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai105.html

You can also look at:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BOMIntro.shtml

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml ... for a simpler overview.

2. The Book of Mormon would have been impossible for a young, ignorant and uneducated Joseph Smith to have written himself. The Book of Mormon is in many ways very sophisticated, full of complex narratives, obscure poetry types, different and never contradictory calendar systems, wisdom literature, etc, etc. Joseph Smith dictated the book in the space of about 70 days in a stream of consciousness, never referring to notes, never asking for a passage to be read back to him, always picking up exactly where he left off after breaks.... and this at a time when those who knew him best said he could barely write a coherent letter, let alone a book.

3. Ultimately, like belief in the Bible, belief in the veracity of the Book of Mormon is a matter of faith. We in the Church believe that there is no more clear or powerful testimony of Jesus Christ than that found in the Book of Mormon - not that the Bible is not just as powerful but I think the Book of Mormon is unmatched for clarity. We believe that God will manifest the truthfulness of his Word, be it the Bible or Book of Mormon, to those that seek it out with sincerity. There are millions of Mormons who can give you their testimony of the Book of Mormon but ultimately that kind of personal knowledge or faith must come from God.

Here's something I just found but can't vouch for everything it says:

http://www.comevisit.com/lds/bom-evid.htm

[Cal]

Everytime I read about the 'challenge' and am always amazed that a critic of the Church doesn't point out that Joseph Smith was visited by Moroni FOUR years before the coming of the BoM. That gives a person a long time to forumulate a story line. In light of this, the '60 day' translation time frame could be a stretch. Anyways, just to play devil's advocate. I think the BoM is scripture regardless.

Regardless of what?

[Cal]

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Jason,

According to your logic, or the logic you’re using, you can only learn truth from someone who DOESN”T know it, because if you learn the truth from someone who DOES know it, you’ll say he is biased and reject him.

No, I’m saying that "Dr. T" is looking for outside confirmation of those things that Mormons would proclaim as undisputable facts. That such outside confirmation is wanting is what I’m trying to point out, in spite of your claims.

Yeah, I know, but you’re also saying that “outside confirmation” must come from people who are and never will be members of the Church while knowing that the Church is true.

Heh, which makes we wonder why you would choose to follow someone who knew the Church was true and then still didn’t choose to join it.

And on a related point, it could be that you haven’t read the right kind of books, Jason, because I’ve found a lot of corroboration of facts from people “outside” the Church as well as in it, and the reason they didn’t choose to accept the church or the gospel and related issues was because they were still grappling with the traditions of men. And if you’re open to suggestion, I recommend that you read some books by Hugh Nibley, a proficient scholar and member of the Church who cites information from artifacts and documents found all over the world from the ancient past and these latter days.

<div class='quotemain'>

And btw, you can use the scientific methods as a pattern for learning the truths that I and other people have discovered, so repeat the steps we took to learn the truth while trusting only in God.

There's nothing scientific about prayer and warm-fuzzies.

Heh, prayer is a type of communication, or a means to receive information from someone, namely God, so using communication to talk with God is just as “scientific” as using communication from anybody else. And just as you might have to wrestle with someone to grasp what they are trying to tell you, you might also have to wrestle with God until you are able to understand what He tells you, which at first you may only perceive to be those “warm-fuzzy” feelings you’re talking about until you learn to interpret them into your language.

And btw, as any good “scientist” will tell you, it’s always better to go to the source of all good information instead of trusting those who say they are copying, which is why I recommend that you talk with God when you really want to know Him.

Ray,

I haven't found one good scientist that thinks that praying is the best way to discover the cure to cancer. People have been praying to have their diseases go away for millenia, and it wasn't until cold hard science discovered things like bacteria, virus and then things like penicillin that we made any significant inroads. Same thing applies to everything in this world. Praying for knowledge is just the lazy way out. First study, use science, do the research, then, if it makes you feel better pray. But its the former that will solve the problem, not the latter. History shows that when ever theology tries to "one up" science, theology always loses. So, ignore science at your peril.

[Snow]

Everytime I read about the 'challenge' and am always amazed that a critic of the Church doesn't point out that Joseph Smith was visited by Moroni FOUR years before the coming of the BoM. That gives a person a long time to forumulate a story line. In light of this, the '60 day' translation time frame could be a stretch. Anyways, just to play devil's advocate. I think the BoM is scripture regardless.

Okay - what evidence do you have that Joseph Smith was following a pre-thought-out story line?

[Dr T]

If it was a "will to power" that he searched for, religion would be a great way to go about it. What would be more powerful than being the direct link to God? The only conduit for "reestablishing" a fallen away church. Able to "speak for God," develop followers, have people look up to you. Buck the traditional system. Financial prosperity, etc. Evidence though... good question.

Dr. T