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Just_A_Guy

TSA's Advanced Pat-Down Techniques . . .

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I Find the TSA's Body Pat Down Procedure to be: Sexual assault and Breaking Of The Law of Chasity

New TSA pat-down procedure expands nationwide | Money & Company | Los Angeles Times

TSA accused of sexual molestation of passengers and pilots

[mod note - waaaaay to personal details edited]

Mark

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon

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well, no, it isn't violating the law of chastity because to violate the law of chastity you need to have sexual relations of some sort. Medical practice and security checks really don't qualify as sexual relations. If you're uncomfortable with these things, that's a personal issue, not a doctrinal or moral issue.

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That pat down according to your first link is for those who forgo the scanning machine. So get scanned instead if you don't want somebody touching you (which I can understand). Personally I'm disinclined to consider it a violation of the law of Chasity any more than I am a gynecologist's contact with his/her patient. It is happening in a professional capacity. Same applies to the scanning machine.

Now if the TSA employee is going beyond their duty that would be a violation but it would be on their part not the scanee/patee.

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Guest Alana

No chastity issues, but I don't want to be scanned and I don't want to be pat down, or my children. I'm going on a plane in about 12 hours. I'm so hoping I won't be singled out. If I am... there may be a problem. I mean, since I'm going to have a baby with me, are they going to check in her diaper?!? I'm feeling a little reactionary, and I do like my airports safe, but I am not comfortable with the naked body scans or ultra pat downs.

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I think these scans in a few yrs or so will be the issue of alot of people getting cancer, watch youll see. and these pat downs geesh i dont like that either but if i had to id choice the pat down. but a pat down on a child come on...just another thing to screw us up in our minds....no child should be put thru that....so just dont fly...drive.

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Oh please. Could we live in a more paranoid world? Both those requiring the scans/pat-downs, and those "afraid" of them. I understand the need for them for safety concerns, but I think there are some aspects of airport security that could be done away with.

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Oh please. Could we live in a more paranoid world? Both those requiring the scans/pat-downs, and those "afraid" of them. I understand the need for them for safety concerns, but I think there are some aspects of airport security that could be done away with.

The fun thing is it is hard to test the efficiency of such security measures. If you ask how many people they have caught the usual response is it deterred many more who chickened out because of the possibility of getting caught.

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Edit: It seems that two thread have been merged. They started on similar yet distinct topics, and I think they would be better still separate. This post is in response to the CAIR article.

Interesting. I'm the first person to differentiate between Muslims and Muslim extremists, but this strikes me as ironic and odd. The reason that existing extensive security measures are in place is because of a group of (overzealous) Muslims. I have no doubt that there are female extremist Muslims.

I also wonder how it will go over for Muslim women to "tell" TSA officers that they may only pat down the head and neck regions, but not the rest. What's the point then? And if that is all that will be done, and the hijab will not be removed (which would be considered immodest within Islam), why ask specifically for a private screening room?

Edited by Wingnut
clarify to what I am responding

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The fun thing is it is hard to test the efficiency of such security measures. If you ask how many people they have caught the usual response is it deterred many more who chickened out because of the possibility of getting caught.

I traveled last month (as you know), and had a really negative incident on the way home. It was due in part to -- what I consider -- paranoid security measures. I was traveling with my husband and our two-year-old daughter. We had two tote bags, two backpacks, one laptop, a stroller, a a car seat, a purse, and three pairs of shoes. You know how you have to take your shoes off to go through security? (I really hope that with these new full-body scans, they'll do away with that, by the way.) I carried our daughter through the metal detector, and waited for the stroller (almost the last item) to come through so I could put her in it before dealing with shoes and everything else. Long story short, as I pushed the locking bar down on the stroller, with my foot, my sock caught on it, and I fell backward, hitting my head and nearly blacking out on the concrete floor of the airport. I was still holding my daughter.

So how many people have they caught with terrorist (or other) weapons hiding in their shoes? Conversely, how many people have fallen because of similar circumstances as mine, or how many people have contracted all manner of gross infections because of bare feet?

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I've always figured that if I get hit up for the pat down I'll ask for their hottest female to do it or the deal's off. But with my luck they probably employ someone who looks like an old Soviet Weightlifter for that job.

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. . . don't apply to Muslims.

This article is misleading, beginning with the headline: "Muslim Group Advises Women Wearing Hijabs to Allow TSA ‘Enhanced Pat Downs’ Only on Head and Neck Area."

CAIR only advises women to do that in a certain situation:

If you are selected for secondary screening after you go through the metal detector and it does not go off, and "sss" is not written on your boarding pass, ask the TSA officer if the reason you are being selected is because of your head scarf. (emphasis mine)

In this situation, you may be asked to submit to a pat-down or to go through a full body scanner. If you are selected for the scanner, you may ask to go through a pat-down instead.

Before you are patted down, you should remind the TSA officer that they are only supposed to pat down the area in question, in this scenario, your head and neck. They SHOULD NOT subject you to a full-body or partial-body pat-down. (All emphases are mine.)

In other words, CAIR only advises woman to say to only pat the head and neck when it is the only area in question--it is not the blanket recommendation the CNSNews article implies it is.

If I understand the issue correctly, CAIR does believe Muslims should not be subject to the scans for religious reasons, but it did not say, in any way, that Muslims do not have to consent to the pat downs.

I am not a big fan of CAIR, and I think it's ridiculous for Muslims to refuse the scan. They are not helping themselves if they want people in this country to stop being so phobic of them. But the article was about the pat-downs, and it left out some critical context, beginning with the headline.

Elphaba

Edited by Elphaba

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I've always figured that if I get hit up for the pat down I'll ask for their hottest female to do it or the deal's off. But with my luck they probably employ someone who looks like an old Soviet Weightlifter for that job.

Lol. The article that JAG posted in another thread (about TSA and CAIR) stated that TSA's policy is for an officer of the same gender to conduct pat-downs.

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Last time I flew in June, I went through the scans and then because the scan couldn't detect around the chest area very well, I had to be pat down. It was done very professionally and without embarrassment. I'm sure many of the TSA agents dislike it as much as those that are flying.

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I don't understand this aversion to the scans. It's more like an xray, not a picture of you naked. Someone care to explain the dislike/fear of the scans?

There are two reasons people have beef[1] with the scans.

One is that they're basically like an X-ray. For frequent travelers, adding extra scans is like going to the doctor's office every week and getting an X-ray or two… whether you need it or not.

The other is that the scanners take very detailed photographs. TSA has said several times that they're not stored, but then they've been caught keeping copies of the pictures. (See e.g. this story.)

There's a pretty good summary of the issues here.

The scans and patdowns do very little to protect against the most significant risks to airline passengers, and by extension the rest of us. I can think of half-a-dozen ways off the top of my head to disrupt air travel or kill people in ways that are undetectable by these scanners, and so can most other security professionals. That's my objection: I don't mind measures that actually contribute to security but I don't want my time (and tax dollars) wasted on security theater.

[1] See what I did there?

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I Find the TSA's Body Pat Down Procedure to be: Sexual assault and Breaking Of The Law of Chasity

New TSA pat-down procedure expands nationwide | Money & Company | Los Angeles Times

TSA accused of sexual molestation of passengers and pilots

[mod note - waaaaay to personal details edited]

Mark

And what would the alternative be? Have the possibility of being blown into bits at 30,000 feet?

If you feel like your being violated at the airport, I suggest that you never entertain the idea of having a colon-rectal exam or a prostate finger wave -- although I think they can check your prostate by a blood examination nowadays.

I think your way over the top as far as feeling sexually assaulted and breaking the law of chastity for a pat down.

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There are two reasons people have beef[1] with the scans.

One is that they're basically like an X-ray. For frequent travelers, adding extra scans is like going to the doctor's office every week and getting an X-ray or two… whether you need it or not.

The other is that the scanners take very detailed photographs. TSA has said several times that they're not stored, but then they've been caught keeping copies of the pictures. (See e.g. this story.)

There's a pretty good summary of the issues here.

The scans and patdowns do very little to protect against the most significant risks to airline passengers, and by extension the rest of us. I can think of half-a-dozen ways off the top of my head to disrupt air travel or kill people in ways that are undetectable by these scanners, and so can most other security professionals. That's my objection: I don't mind measures that actually contribute to security but I don't want my time (and tax dollars) wasted on security theater.

[1] See what I did there?

The way I see it..if they want their cheap thrill more power to them.

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The other is that the scanners take very detailed photographs. TSA has said several times that they're not stored, but then they've been caught keeping copies of the pictures. (See e.g. this story.)

If that happens, I see it as their problem, not my own.

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i'm sure the information is there but is this pat down any different than one the cops or military use when they are doing a search? there is a standard pat down searching technique that has been around for a long time to look for weapons. if they are using the same one then i'm not sure ppl can claim an issue. if they are going above and beyond then i could see a complaint. if a pat down is acceptable for cops to know they are safe then it's acceptable for me on a plane.

as for the pics i'm quite sure no one wants to look at nude pics of me more than they have to. lol google "tsa body scaners" for images. the results are more clear than i'd like pics of me being taken but i didn't see them as porn or sexual in any way. if some creepy airline worker does see them as arousing then they are probably imagining you nude anyway.

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i'm sure the information is there but is this pat down any different than one the cops or military use when they are doing a search?

Actually, it turns out that US forces in Afghanistan are prohibited from performing pat-down searches of women and children.

Think about that for a second: TSA is using a measure on US citizens, in the US, that we don't allow our troops-- who are daily threatened in ways most of us can only imagine-- to use because we can't afford to offend the sensibilities of the Afghans!

All I can say about that is… well, it's a three-letter acronym that's probably not suitable for use in this audience.

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I don't understand this aversion to the scans. It's more like an xray, not a picture of you naked. Someone care to explain the dislike/fear of the scans?

For me it's the Radiation. It's not safe.

Your radiation dosage accumulates over your lifetime- your goal should be to minimize your exposure, not to increase it. For people who fly a lot, this could really add up to a significant increase in their dosage.

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