Man won't submit to security, TSA won't let him fly. Who's right?

[bytor2112]

As Spock would say....fascinating! These stories are becoming very common..... I don't fly much, I would probably just get scanned rather than groped. Unless the TSA Agent was uber hot...and er...Mrs. Bytor wasn't around :)

He did marvel that while his own situation was being deliberated, many passengers passed through the metal detector and on to their flights with no pat-down. "One guy even set off the alarm and they sent him through again without a pat-down," he said.

[Blackmarch]

As Spock would say....fascinating! These stories are becoming very common..... I don't fly much, I would probably just get scanned rather than groped. Unless the TSA Agent was uber hot...and er...Mrs. Bytor wasn't around :)

who's right? TSA.

Are they being absolutely fair in treatment equally to everyone? probably not.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Blackmarch

[bytor2112]

[bytor2112]

You can listen to the actual encounter here.

[Just_A_Guy]

I can sympathize with the TSA's "play our game, or don't fly today" position.

What's insane is this BS where they refuse to let you walk away without the threat of a $10,000 fine.

[NeuroTypical]

After listening to the audio, I have zero sympathy for this guy. The original TSA agent was professional and courteous. The supervisor was professional and courteous. The third and fourth guy we hear are both professional and courteous. They were all correct. The guy in the third video was giving him a hard time, and threatening to bring a case against him and whatnot - but everyone else - well, I stand in awe of their patience and courtesy. I'd like this guy to try flying in Israel and try his nonsense with El-Al security.

Sorry guy, pat-downs and groin checks are not 'sexual molestation'. Yeah - let's go to an airport and argue with people trying to do their jobs, about the government taking rights away after 9-11. Yeah - let's wait until after your father-in-law bought you the ticket. Let's wait until you're standing there in line, and then throw your big hissy fit - just to make sure you can make life difficult for as many other people as possible.

He might have been hoping for another ACORN Hidden Video-esque expose about jack-booted government thugs or something, but after listening to both audios, it's pretty clear that up until the last agent talking about bringing a case against him, all of the melodrama and grief was coming from this guy.

It's pretty simple - you wanna fly? You might have to submit to a groin check. You don't want that to happen, you don't fly. My 6 yr old is currently trying to get around such logic by throwing crying fits and assuming victimhood. She'll grow out of it. I guess this guy still has some learning to do. The comments on his blog are aplauding him for his meaningful act of civil disobedience. If that's what he was going for, why wait until after FIL bought the ticket and the family was at the airport? Why not just go to an airport on your day off?

LM

Edited November 15, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Roseslipper]

oh my gosh is all i can say

[bytor2112]

Loudmouth: Totally agree. He seemed like he was ready for a confrontation or maybe he just didn't realize that saying " if you touch my junk, I will press charges " would cause such a stir.( or whatever he said). Of course, he also stated that he felt the TSA was professional and courteous to him.

I must say, I would be riled up as well if I were being given the treatment by the TSA and others were just streaming through via the metal detector.

Edited November 15, 2010 by bytor2112

[Captain_Curmudgeon]

oh my gosh is all i can say

Hey, anybody can rent a nun suit. As soon as nuns are exempt from search, a group of "nuns" will hijack a plane.

[prisonchaplain]

Drudge has the nun frisking picture on its page today with the caption "War on Terror: WE LOST!" The Captain is correct. On the other hand, if we're frisking nuns, why are we so afraid of sharia law? Maybe we have already lost.

[GaySaint]

As Spock would say....fascinating! These stories are becoming very common..... I don't fly much, I would probably just get scanned rather than groped. Unless the TSA Agent was uber hot...and er...Mrs. Bytor wasn't around :)

Bytor, at first read I envisioned a male TSA agent, and I was a little shocked you would say that! hahaha.

Anyway, TSA was right. The last time I was at the airport I accidently got into the full body scanner line. No biggy, but when I got through the line I asked the TSA agent if I could have a copy of my picture for my facebook account. He wasn't amused.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Well, my opinion is that they should not have refunded his airfare ticket. He knew what the rules and policies were going into the airport unless he lives on another planet.

On the other hand I do think it would be overkill to fine him $11,000 for refusal to play the game. Since he felt the need to make it known to the world through his blog in playing the victim role, who knows what will happen.

I have not one bit of sympathy for this guy, and although I think the fine would be excessive, I actually would get a chuckle out of it I suppose.

It's pretty black and white -- you want to fly, then you know the drill -- if you don't want to go through all the procedures of security checks, then ride a bike, train or drive a car or take a boat.

Until the current procedures change -- it's really not rocket science is it?

Edited November 16, 2010 by Gwen
language

[prisonchaplain]

Flavious...the guy made a fuss on purpose, and the blogsphere's picked up on it, precisely because people do not agree with the rules of the game. There is a sense that the security measures being taken on overkill and helter skelter. We're frisking nuns (yes, terrorists can dress like nuns), and conducting very detailed scans of people. All this costs money and time, and makes many feel like unconvicted criminals.

So, he protests. He used a publicity stunt to highlight his disagreement. Many others feel the same. And, indeed, this is now a big discussion topic, so mission accomplished. He's not necessarily a good guy or a bad guy. He's a guy with a message, who apparently was willing to risk some severe penalties because he believed (correctly) that many would agree with him.

He may be no Dr. Martin Luther King. On the other hand, he just may have a point.

[Just_A_Guy]

I dunno if we should blame ICE or TSA or who; but someone's head needs to roll for this.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Flavious...the guy made a fuss on purpose, and the blogsphere's picked up on it, precisely because people do not agree with the rules of the game. There is a sense that the security measures being taken on overkill and helter skelter. We're frisking nuns (yes, terrorists can dress like nuns), and conducting very detailed scans of people. All this costs money and time, and makes many feel like unconvicted criminals.

So, he protests. He used a publicity stunt to highlight his disagreement. Many others feel the same. And, indeed, this is now a big discussion topic, so mission accomplished. He's not necessarily a good guy or a bad guy. He's a guy with a message, who apparently was willing to risk some severe penalties because he believed (correctly) that many would agree with him.

He may be no Dr. Martin Luther King. On the other hand, he just may have a point.

Well, if this guy can stir the bowl enough to get enough Americans to rise up and try to have policys and procedures changed through the proper channels, then bully for him.

Until then this was just another man with an agenda that was thought out well in advance or 'publicity stunt' instead of events that spontaneously irked him enough to cause a stink.

The airport security people are just doing what they have been trained to do -- so let them do it. If people have these feelings of being violated then those people need to take their uprising to the politicians and lawmakers -- not to the airport security personel.

Until things change, if they ever do, then all I can say is 'Render unto Caesar' or invest in a Vespa.

The story about the baby that JAG provided is just sad and wrong and procedures should be modified for such rare cases.

I just hope that nothing slips through the cracks and a airplane full of passengers falls from the sky. If that happens then I'm sure the populace might start re-thinking their outcry of being 'scanned' or 'groped' or 'patted down'.

I'm going to take a guess that the people traveling to and from Israel are not feeling 'violated' -- should we be any less concerned? -- especially in this day and age?

[PeaceRoseRest]

I'm amazed at how many people are now forming flying pools - just like car pooling. They are renting private planes and avoiding the pat-downs. Bravo!

One other thing - I hope everyone here realizes that these scanners don't detect plastics. Yes, plastics - like plastic explosives and compostite firearms. Just something to think about.

There's no way the government is going to prevent life from happening. Sorry.

Captain "Sully" didn't have a terrorist on his plane and it still ended up in the harbor.

I took a flight from California to D.C a while back with a knife in my purse the whole time. I had the knife in my purse because I was working nights and frequently needed a small knife for certain things in my lunch. I forgot I had it in my purse at all. My purse still went through the scanners at the airport. The knife went undetected.

[prisonchaplain]

Well, if this guy can stir the bowl enough to get enough Americans to rise up and try to have policys and procedures changed through the proper channels, then bully for him.

Very seldom are causes rallied to because someone simply followed the appropriate procedures. More often, some type of non-violent civil disobedience occurs.

The airport security people are just doing what they have been trained to do -- so let them do it.

So said the store clerks and waitresses who told people of color they would not be served. I'm not suggesting this cause is equivalent. On the other hand, we will have to decide soon, as a country, if this is really what we need or want. If we do not decide, then the decision will be made for us.

If people have these feelings of being violated then those people need to take their uprising to the politicians and lawmakers -- not to the airport security personel.

Sometimes a combination of citizen-lobbying and civil disobedience is necessary. I'm honestly unsure, thus far, on this matter. I can see why many people are upset with the seeming "police state" mentality that we're moving towards, though.

The story about the baby that JAG provided is just sad and wrong and procedures should be modified for such rare cases.

Sometimes the rare extreme brings to our consciousness that the daily humiliations of the new regimen of security checks may not be worth it. Are we losing our dignity and liberty to fear? Again, I'm not certain, but these matters certainly warrant more consideration.

I just hope that nothing slips through the cracks and a airplane full of passengers falls from the sky. If that happens then I'm sure the populace might start re-thinking their outcry of being 'scanned' or 'groped' or 'patted down'.

I understand that argument. Just how safe can we be, and how much does the invasive random searches help? If we're going to be all about safety, then we'd go to 100% scans or pat searches. Do we want that? Where's the balance?

I'm going to take a guess that the people traveling to and from Israel are not feeling 'violated' -- should we be any less concerned? -- especially in this day and age?

It's my understanding that Israel does more background searching, and is then more selective about who their personnel do the more aggressive checks on.

Overcompliance, in the name of 'obey the law' can lead to abuse: TSA Hit With Lawsuits As Revolt Explodes

Edited November 17, 2010 by prisonchaplain

[NeuroTypical]

Does anyone here disagree with racial profiling? For example, anyone have a problem with specifically paying more attention to middle-eastern men between the ages of 18 and 40? Or paying more attention to people flying in or out of countries that support terrorism?

LM

[Jenamarie]

Does anyone here disagree with racial profiling? For example, anyone have a problem with specifically paying more attention to middle-eastern men between the ages of 18 and 40? Or paying more attention to people flying in or out of countries that support terrorism?

LM

I would have a HUGE beef with racial profiling. And I don't think it would help much either. The terror organizations would just start recruiting more non-Arabs to do their dirty work to bypass that "safety measure".

Now *behavioral* profiling (person looks jumpy, one-way-ticket, NO luggage, etc.) when performed by highly trained professionals, I think would be far more effective, because then it wouldn't matter what kind of person the terrorist is, he or she will show some signs that no amount of make-up or clothing or lighter-skinned ethnicity will be able to hide.

[Bini]

Does anyone here disagree with racial profiling? For example, anyone have a problem with specifically paying more attention to middle-eastern men between the ages of 18 and 40? Or paying more attention to people flying in or out of countries that support terrorism?

LM

I'm not politically savvy by any means but I know a lot of people protest when the words "racial profiling" are said. But I'm not sure if people really understand what the definition entails and its purpose. I guess the method of racial profiling could easily be manipulated to serve racists authority figures but I don't believe that's its purpose. In some instances, the only way to narrow down and get the "bad guys" is by going with statistics. And if the facts show that (for example only) Asian women perpetrate the majority of terrorist acts in the United States — it makes perfect sense that this "profile" be used by authorities. Is there an exception to the rule? Always. But to overlook a specific profile because non-terrorist people that fit that profile may be flagged and be offended, is just too bad because there's a bigger picture here. Absolutely, behavioural profiling should also be accounted for but many of these terrorists are highly educated, professional in appearance and mannerism, and aren't "jumpy" or display any kind of shady disposition.

[NeuroTypical]

I appreciate your comments about behavioral profiling.

I would have a HUGE beef with racial profiling. And I don't think it would help much either. The terror organizations would just start recruiting more non-Arabs to do their dirty work to bypass that "safety measure".

Well, part of the point, is that they have a hard time doing so. They would have done that already if they could have. Part of Bin Laden's point in bringing the towers down, was to create a groundswell of 'homegrown terrorists' inside secular democracies like ours, that would help carry the war forward. There's been notable failure in that arena. A few isolated exceptions like the shoe bomber, but otherwise, everyone attempting to carry out terror via airplane in America and Europe are still Middle-Eastern men between 18 and 45.

LM

[PeaceRoseRest]

Good points made by both Jenamarie and Bini. I don't think it's possible to avoid the statistics. Security in Israel focuses on people who already have questionable backgrounds.

My father was an airline pilot for over 30 years. He had to face hijackers on occasion who wanted to take the plane, passengers and crew to Cuba. In spite of this, he still feels that all of this scanning and patting down is useless. A plane doesn't have to be blown up by an actual passenger. Maintenance personell could easily attach a bomb to a plane, baggage handlers could throw another suitcase into the hold, someone could launch a ground-to-air rocket, etc.

[bytor2112]

Racial profile away....much better than checking every 8th person. We aren't at war with every 8th person. We are at war with radical Islam nut cases.

[Guest]

All I have to say is this:

If YOU, the American people, are willing to give up your personal dignity to "homeland security", then your country is well on its way to be the next Cuba.

I would like to think that this country is still great enough that patriots can choose to fly an airplane without having to subject themselves to strangers touching their groins and breasts.

It is sad to see that your intelligence agencies, the united states military, and police force feel that this is the way to prevent an act of terror to be instigated on the friendly skies.

Pathetic.

[Elphaba]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what type of scanner everyone WOULD be happy with. One that sees metal products, but not butt cheeks? Why settle for scanners that only see some things, but not others?

If we want scanners to do their jobs, they have to see everything. In order to see everything, they have to see EVERYTHING, and it's only logical, albeit unfortunate, that this includes body parts.

My issue with these scanners is they do not see everything. While it is not true they don't detect plastic, it is true they do not detect thin plastic, and they cannot see through plastic. Given plastics are used in explosive devices, I see this is a major flaw. I want a scanner that can see plastics, and every other item that could be used in a weapon, and if that means it sees my daughter's boobs too, I'm fine with that. I want her alive.

Elphaba