Second Disciplinary Council => Excommunication

[Bethiepooh]

I participated in a DC a few months ago. At first, I went to my bishop but, over time, I didn't care to talk to him so he initiated contact a few months after that, which resulted in further confession to more progressed sin in the same category.

Now, a few months after the first DC where I was disfellowshipped (not the first time), I am not necessarily regretful for the actions I have taken. The bishop very well knows this. He received approval from the Stake President to proceed with another DC.

So, this will occur in a few days.

I know that, when you are ex-communicated, you can no longer wear the temple garment (I am an endowed member) or pay tithing. I am pretty confident this is correct but please tell me if this is wrong.

I know that the Holy Ghost is "taken" from you but I am curious as to this procedure, if there is one.

How is the result of ex-communication handled in the DC? Or is it?

On the other hand, I know that I will come back but just not right now (obviously). I believe the things the gospel teaches and I always will. I know they are there for a reason and I have just used my agency in a certain aspect that is frowned upon by the Lord.

[NeuroTypical]

The only meaningful answer we can give to your questions is "it depends". It really is different for everyone. The purpose of a DC is to aid the member in their journey away from the transgression and closer to God. How this is best done in your case, will be different than it was for my case, or anyone else's.

Yeah, if you're excomunicated, no garment. Probably no thithing, but not sure. Probably no public praying at church or holding callings or giving talks, but again, not sure.

God bless. Here's hoping that you can have this process be as cleansing and freeing, as it has been for so many of us.

LM

[bytor2112]

Excommunication=no longer a member.

[needingadvice]

I would totally copy and paste the link but my computer is behaving funny. In the September 1990 Ensign there is an article about disciplinary councils. It is called "A Chance to Start Over."

[Wingnut]

I would totally copy and paste the link but my computer is behaving funny. In the September 1990 Ensign there is an article about disciplinary councils. It is called "A Chance to Start Over."

A Chance to Start Over: Church Disciplinary Councils and the Restoration of Blessings - Ensign Sept. 1990

[FlaviusHambonius]

Why would you or anyone believe that the Holy Ghost is taken from you? While I believe that the Holy Ghost will not dwell in unholy places -- to me it sounds as if you are saying it is taken away until you are re-baptized and confirmed and if that is the case then it sounds as if you are saying that the only possibility that the Holy Ghost is given, is to the LDS members.

If you are in the repentance process and striving to overcome your weakness with a true heart, why would you not have the possibility to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost to guide you during these troubling times.

[Wingnut]

The gift of the Holy Ghost is taken away upon excommunication. The influence of the Holy Ghost is not. Not necessarily, anyway.

[prisonchaplain]

Help me with this...because it is common to most religions. Individuals feel that the "sin" they are doing is something they need to continue with. And yet, they know God does not approve. So there is this talk of coming back some day...I do ot understand this line of reasoning. If God is our Creator, and we know what He wants, why would we walk in disobedience, even while espousing his teachings?

On the one hand, yes, we all sin...we all give in to temptation from time to time. What I am not understanding is this couplet of decisions--the gospel is true, yet I will continue doing what I know God does not want.

And yet, this is fairly common. So, how does one come to that place?

[GaySaint]

As to some of the questions, as someone who has been through this, unless the CHI has changed in this regard, you are not allowed to wear garments or pay tithes after being excommunicated (although I do find it odd that a non-member can pay tithing if they wish, but excommunicated members can not). I specifically asked the tithing question because I wanted to continue paying them, but was instructed that I would not be allowed.

I also believe that one would still have access to the Holy Ghost if such access is sought. The gift may be taken away, but I find that the spirit is always there when I ask it to be. There is no "formal" process for removing any of the gifts or blessings of the gospel (in other words, you don't have hands laid on your head to strip you of blessings, etc).

I've always viewed excommunication as the Lord's way of saying, "Let's start over when you are ready." I believe very strongly that it has been a blessing in my life.

[sweetiepie]

I am trying to say this without sounding too harsh, but I feel it is not fair that someone feels that they can do what they want (i.e. wrong choices with the knowlege and truth of the gospel), then come back when "they" feel is it time.

I do what I am supposed to do, even though, yes, it would be easier and much more fun to do those things that are contrary to the gospel. I wish it was as easy as that, but its not. We are humble and obedient.

I know that some people have trouble with some things when introduced to the gospel, and need time to become ready to accept. But those who already accepted those things, become endowed (such a gift), have a second chance with dc, then think, well, I will just become a member when I feel like it again. Its too hard to choose the right now.

Trust me, I have those thoughts, life outside in the world seems alot more fun at times, but I know it is Satan's tool to trap you and lure you away from ultimate happiness.

I just think its not fair to make that choice when it is completely in your power. Very, very, hard, and I am sorry you are struggling, but not sorry that you have no regret. You are smarter than that, and Satan is fooling you into this line of thinking.

[Dravin]

I am trying to say this without sounding too harsh, but I feel it is not fair that someone feels that they can do what they want (i.e. wrong choices with the knowlege and truth of the gospel), then come back when "they" feel is it time.

The gospel isn't fair it is merciful. It isn't fair that Christ died for your sins, not in the least.

I do what I am supposed to do, even though, yes, it would be easier and much more fun to do those things that are contrary to the gospel.

It being easier and more fun is debatable. Wickness never was happiness and when it comes time to return or if one doesn't return and is standing before the Judgement bar I don't think things are going to be easier than if one had been obedient. Disobedience has very real consequences. For instance one consequence is it can be much harder to maintain a testimony or to keep other commandments as time goes on.

Very, very, hard, and I am sorry you are struggling, but not sorry that you have no regret. You are smarter than that, and Satan is fooling you into this line of thinking.

One of those consequences can be the the weakening of the ability to feel godly sorrow.

Giving in to sin can be considered easier in that the natural man doesn't pester you. However it makes other things much more difficult. Likewise as it concerns the natural man being obedient is harder, but it makes other things like feeling the spirit and having a testimony much easier. It also makes not being excommunicated a lot easier as well.

I'm seeing a lot of parallels Sweetipie (okay, typing out your name always feels a little awkward) between your line of thinking and the thinking of the obedient son in the parable of the prodigal son.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Dravin

[prisonchaplain]

In my work, I see folk who went very much the wrong way, and do make that turn around towards the Lord. However, generally speaking, they were never very serious for God, or they were serious at a young age, and left the faith long ago.

I would never want to discourage someone from deciding it was time to come back. What I find difficult to understand are those who know the Good News is true, and yet leave the practice of their faith for a decision they know does not please God.

At the same time, this happens frequently, and I suppose it is better to rejoice in those who repent, then to berate those who make their choices, yet hold out the hope of God's forgiveness and mercy.

[sweetiepie]

I'm seeing a lot of parallels Sweetipie between your line of thinking and the thinking of the obedient son in the parable of the prodigal son.

After much thought, I am seeing what you are saying, and what you mean by that. Bear with my thoughts, I am young still, and somewhat protected by my little bubble I place around myself through the gospel. Just my way of saying what I felt about that. I am someone who has never had any serious sins to repent of, so I shouldn't have been making judgements.

I still believe that this person knows what to do, but is simply choosing not to do it behind the mask of reasoning. It just seems easier.

But thanks for softening my answer...I will be more candor in my thoughts in the future. :)

[Dravin]

I would never want to discourage someone from deciding it was time to come back. What I find difficult to understand are those who know the Good News is true, and yet leave the practice of their faith for a decision they know does not please God.

It is interesting isn't it? The first assumption is they don't really have that testimony and knowledge despite appearances. One can seems to be more deeply planted in gospel sod than they actually are. I suppose in the end God is (thankfully) the best judge of that. I do agree that with a true and comprehensive knowledge and testimony of the atonement and the effects of Sin that consciously deciding, "I'm gonna game the system" is hard to grasp.

Of course I've always found the behavior of Laman and Lemuel in the Book of Mormon to be alien (God and angels talk to them and they still rebel?) or of Cain and Judas in the Bible. Satan is very seductive and very good as what he does. I suppose he's had quite a lot of practice and then there is simple rationalization. I think people are capable of that without his help.

I still believe that this person knows what to do, but is simply choosing not to do it behind the mask of reasoning. It just seems easier.

Oh don't get me wrong, people do make the choice to sin now and repent later because its "easier". I think that thinking in and of itself is one of those things they'll have to repent of. So right there is one thing that makes such thinking and behavior harder instead of easier because on top of any other sins they committed they have that attitude on top of it they are going to have to repent of.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Dravin

[Maureen]

...I do what I am supposed to do, even though, yes, it would be easier and much more fun to do those things that are contrary to the gospel. I wish it was as easy as that, but its not....

I would hope that God's people would make the good choices because they want to and not because they're supposed to. I would think having the right attitude in being a child of God makes a difference.

I don't understand how a person can think that going against God would be easy or fun. Take for example a serious commandment: "Do not murder". For me it is much easier and better to keep that commandment than not.

M.

[Dravin]

I would hope that God's people would make the good choices because they want to and not because they're supposed to.

Depends how you look at it.

Why do we want to do something (assuming proper attitude)? Because we love God. But why do we do that something because we love God? Because he's told us it is what he wants from us and that if we love him we'll do that. In other words because it is how we are supposed to show our love (or how our love manifests itself) for him.

It's why not committing adultery is a demonstration of your love for him and why choosing the blue shirt over the yellow shirt (everything else being equal) is not. Because not committing adultery is how we are supposed to show (or if you prefer how our love for him manifests itself) our love for him and choosing the blue shirt over the yellow shirt is not. And of course if you really want to get broad, are we supposed to love God? If so everything we do as part of loving God is something we are supposed to do.

Doing something because one wants to and because one is supposed to are not inherently contradictory or somehow mutually exclusive. I do the things I am supposed to because I want to and the reason I want to do things like not committing adultery is because I am supposed to. Now to be fair, they can be separated. For instance, removing God's desire that I obey the laws of the land, I don't want to pay my taxes, I pay them because I'm supposed to.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Dravin

[bytor2112]

It's simple really....one MUST become converted and have a mighty change of heart. Then they must hold fast to the iron rod, pray and seek the companionship of the Spirit or they may well be drawn in to the world.

Much of what we view as sin....the secularist just see's as normal, natural and part of life. That can be very confusing and appealing if we are not careful.

[Bethiepooh]

Loudmouth_Mormon:

I didn’t realize that ex-communication is different for everyone. I am well aware of the purpose of a DC. When I went through one years ago, it was a much more positive experience than this one, granted different bishop/different ward, which has made a HUGE difference. As dis-fellowshipped members can’t pray at church, have a calling or give talks, I would hope that a ex-ed member couldn’t as well, as it’s more serious of a “consequence.”

Wingnut/needing advice:

- Thank you. I have pulled up that article and will read it (if I haven’t done so already; even if I have, it’s a good refresher).

Wingnut:

Thank you for the explanation of the gift of the Holy Ghost v. the influence. That makes absolutely PERFECT sense to me.

Flavius:

I am pretty confident that, in the last DC I had, the bishop said that the reason I wasn’t ex’ed then is b/c he didn’t want to take the Holy Ghost away from me. I thought that was harsh but, understandably (at least I think so), I believed that. Very good point about why I wouldn’t have the Holy Ghost with me during this difficult time. Thank you.

Prisonchaplain:

The sin isn’t something I “need” per se, it’s something I want/choose to do. Why? Pride and nothing but. The fact that I have a testimony and am still doing wrong is something the bishopric is having a very difficult time understanding. I am not sure how to get them to understand. It’s not that I don’t believe. I am just choosing not to practice all of the principles of the gospel. To me, there’s a HUGE difference. I think that one comes to that place when they let pride become more important than their relationship with the Lord. Yikes, that kind of hits home as I type it.

Sweetiepie:

Just b/c we are members and have been for an extended period of time doesn’t mean we won’t fall. We all fall, some of us further than others. I WILL be back and I KNOW I will (granted I get ex’ed) but, unfortunately, right now, pride has taken over. I think that, if I went to the bishop about the most recent occurrence, I would have a much more repentant heart. I’m well aware that Satan has got me right now, at least to a certain degree. I also believe that we all go through trials for a reason. I know one thing that I have gained a testimony of already through this and it’s fellowship.

Dravin:

- I like your comments about the natural man. Would that be synonymous with pride? I think, to a certain extent, it would be…?

- The “sin now and repent later” is also synonymous with pride, isn’t it?

Bytor:

I enjoyed your comments – thank you.

I will be at my DC in about 40 minutes. Sadly, I am planning on being ex-communicated. I planned on it the first time but I wasn't. It did keep me from sinning for a little while but then I am right back into the trap but this time, I have a much different attitude (not necessarily a good thing). I know that, regardless of the outcome, this whole thing is for my better in the end.

[prisonchaplain]

Bethie...you say pride is the root of this choice. Is it possible that you believe the "sinful" action you partake is either not sinful, or not that serious? You accept the gospel, and more or less believe the specific teachings of your church...and yet, you believe this decision offers something to you very worthwhile, and perhaps not so bad. Am I understanding at all?

[Bethiepooh]

I don't necessarily know if pride was the root of it in the beginning. I think it was more of a "make me happy" (selfish?) thing and now, unintentionally (but, apparently, it can't be that unintentional if I am still doing it, right?), it has started again and I am not necessarily willing to "give it up" at this time. I do believe it is sinful and serious. However, in the disciplinary council last night, I was asked if I realize the consequences of my action if I was to get ex'ed (which I was). I said that I understand clearly the literal sense (in this life) but, as far as the Plan of Salvation, I am not sure it's something I can comprehend as far as the consequence(s). They didn't bother going over any details with me to help me understand but, I suppose, when I feel I am ready, I will look into that myself. I am pretty confident this decision doesn't necessarily offer anything worthwhile. You're understanding - I just have a hard time explaining myself in this one....LOL

[Dravin]

Dravin:

- I like your comments about the natural man. Would that be synonymous with pride? I think, to a certain extent, it would be…?

- The “sin now and repent later” is also synonymous with pride, isn’t it?

Most sin can be tied to pride. In this case the pride comes in essentially stating through your actions that you know a better (using that in a rather nebulous way) way to live than God does.

[mordorbund]

Oh don't get me wrong, people do make the choice to sin now and repent later because its "easier". I think that thinking in and of itself is one of those things they'll have to repent of. So right there is one thing that makes such thinking and behavior harder instead of easier because on top of any other sins they committed they have that attitude on top of it they are going to have to repent of.

Not only will they have to repent of that attitude (sin now, repent later), but I think that attitude is more difficult to repent of than whatever particular sin is justified by it.

[Tarnished]

In looking back at my past sins I find myself often coming to the conclusion that people sin because we are selfish. We see something we want, or think we need and we go after it, not always thinking of the consequences. Often sin creeps up on us bit by bit. It may even start innocently and grow from there.

As someone who knew the gospel was true before my sin, I can honestly say that my sin crept up on me. And for a good long time I had a war within myself between my spiritual side and my natural man side. My spiritual side would say, "No, we can't do this, this is wrong." and my natural man side would say, "Oh, what is one time going to hurt? Just once?" Eventually as I got deeper and deeper into my sin the natural man side got stronger and stronger. And no, when I took my first real steps into the depths of my sin I did not feel guilt, I did not feel remorse. I felt nothing. It wasn't until I really sat down with myself and looked at the consequences. What my sins would do to not only myself but also my family, that I really began to take steps away from my sin and back toward God.

Repenting is never easy, especially when we have allowed our sins to get deep, and severe. Sinning can seem easy and fun, but when it comes down to it, and you realize what you have done, sinning is never as fun as it looks like from the outside.

[Bethiepooh]

Dravin: I didn’t realize, until this instance, that pride really is related to every sin. From every challenge, we learn things, right?

Mordorbund: I agree that the attitude will be more difficult than the sin to repent of. It’s not easy to put the natural man aside, regardless of whether it’s the physical natural man or the emotional/mental natural man.

Tarnished: There came a point where the consequence didn’t matter. It’s at that point that you know it’s not the Lord that has your heart/soul/whatever-you-wanna-call-it. Thank you for your comments, as I can relate to a lot of what you’ve said.

[Tarnished]

My point of turning away from my sin came when I realized that what I had done was going to destroy everything in my life. That I was probably going to lose everything. Thankfully I didn't, but it easily could have happened. It was then that I really looked at the consequences because I had to face them. Basically I realized that I was probably going to lose my family, my home, my pets, everything I had built my life around and all because I got to a point where I couldn't care less about consequences and just wanted to do what I felt I needed at the time. I think when it comes down to it everyone hits a point of rock bottom before they turn back toward where they should be heading, rock bottom though is different for each person.