Atheist Ads Cross The Line


TL10
 Share

Recommended Posts

Sorry, DS, I meant "snarky." I didn't think you had said "snaky," (I HATE snakes!), and I apologize for giving people the wrong impression.

No problem, just making sure you knew what word I was using since "snaky" has a much different meaning :) I was also giving TL10 the benefit of the doubt since my main point of contention was the bounds of freedom of speech rather than the bus ad itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 101
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

(I HATE snakes!)

Elph

Ahh that's it. That's the unpardonable sin! You can't be Athiest AND hate snakes! C'mon, you don't believe in God, how much more for the snake giving Eve the apple! SNAKES ARE COOL... not really the snarky/snaky creatures you think they are. I'm gonna have to think about putting you on my ignore list... :D:D:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I came across this atheist ad that's at the Lincoln Tunnel in New Jersey, and decided to post it, just to let you know that there are atheist ads I do find offensive. This is one of them.

Posted Image

I find this ad beyond presumptuous. It's not anyone's place to tell me what I KNOW--that's for me to say, regardless of whether I agree with the statement or not.

Expanding on that, it's not the American Atheists' place to tell believing Christians what they KNOW. That's for each Christian to say, and if I were such a Christian, I would be very offended by this ad.

It makes me cringe.

Elphaba

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can sit in a room full of spiders and I'm just fine. But my fear of snakes is so profound, just looking at the word sends me in search of a xanax. I'm just one of those people whose fear of them is instinctual. Some of my worst nightmares are full of them.

Elph

Are you Indiana Jones????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted Image

Elphaba

I had a high school English teacher who was trying to provoke a conversation, and spoke about "the creation myth." Later on she asked if anyone had any comments. Nobody did. So she says, "Nobody was concerned about my reference to the creation myth?"

One student responded, "Well, a myth simply means that the basis of the story is more literary than historic, not that it's false, so why should we?"

To this day I think the teacher was hoping for a fight, or at least a minor controversy. :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a high school English teacher who was trying to provoke a conversation, and spoke about "the creation myth." Later on she asked if anyone had any comments. Nobody did. So she says, "Nobody was concerned about my reference to the creation myth?"

One student responded, "Well, a myth simply means that the basis of the story is more literary than historic, not that it's false, so why should we?"

To this day I think the teacher was hoping for a fight, or at least a minor controversy. :cool:

Hi PC! Long time no talk, I know. Things have gotten busy in PoL land.

I never like it when people try to treat scripture as literature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People complain all the time about having to be "politically correct" and tiptoe around other people's feelings. And yet, when their own beliefs are contradicted, they often get, well, oversensitive.

We Christians do make extraordinary claims. These are only a few:

Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus was born of a virgin.

Salvation is to be had through Jesus (and only through Him).

Jesus miraculously healed people, and even raised them from the dead.

Jesus miraculously provided food for thousands of people.

Jesus was resurrected from the dead, and so will everybody else (according to the LDS).

Now, I know full well that I cannot produce evidence that will "prove" the truth of any of the above. But I do believe evidence can be had, in the form of direct, personal, spiritual experience, and that is "extraordinary evidence," indeed!

That atheist ad was not hateful. It didn't say "we hate Christians," "homeopathists are evil," or "Bigfoot believers are going to hell," or anything of that ilk. All it says is "show us the evidence to back up your extraordinary claims." We don't have to agree with the sentiment, but I see no reason to get all upset about it. Seriously, we live in the Free World where people are allowed to express differing opinions, even "offensive" ones. This billboard is just so... mild, compared to other messages I hear on a daily basis, that I really don't see what the fuss is about.

HEP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi PC! Long time no talk, I know. Things have gotten busy in PoL land.

I never like it when people try to treat scripture as literature.

I do ot like it either. However, I can understand why an English teacher who does not have faith would do so. Even church historians would like admit that the writings of Moses do not exactly fit within the traditional academic understanding of history. We accept it as such, by faith. However, if a non-Christian English teacher wants to examine the scriptures from the perspective of literature, I guess I figure that this kind of attention is better than outright dismissal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do ot like it either. However, I can understand why an English teacher who does not have faith would do so.

I can't. It's illegal to teach public high school students that the Bible is true, and for good reason. It's just common sense that teaching it is false, while perhaps not illegal, is just as inappropriate.

What is legal is to teach about the Bible as literature, and I really don't understand the opposition to that, as its truthfulness or falseness doesn't hinge on its literary value. But when discussing the Bible, that's the only approach the public school teacher should take.

One exception might be if the subject were creation myths in general, because the story of Adam and Eve does have parallels with other creation stories, and obviously, we think other's stories are, indeed, myths. The teacher's approach to that would be a little more difficult, and given most of the students would be Christian, I would hope s/he would be sensitive to that.

But I see no purpose to your teacher calling it a "myth," other than her personal desire to plant a seed. One of the reasons it's inappropriate to teach the Bible is true is because not all students are Christian. It only makes sense that the same should hold true for teaching the Bible is false--Christian students shouldn't be subjected to that in a public school.

Elphaba

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't. It's illegal to teach public high school students that the Bible is true, and for good reason. It's just common sense that teaching it is false, while perhaps not illegal, is just as inappropriate.

What is legal is to teach about the Bible as literature, and I really don't understand the opposition to that, as its truthfulness or falseness doesn't hinge on its literary value. But when discussing the Bible, that's the only approach the public school teacher should take.

We agree. What I hoped to communicate is that I do not "like" it, but it is the best option. In literature "myth" does not mean "false." It means that the story is literary, not strictly historical in nature. So "Bible as Literature" is a study of the Bible from the vantage point of literary qualities. I prefer teaching Sunday School. I like that. However, in public schools, the Bible as Literature is far superior to most school's "Don't ask don't tell," approach.

One exception might be if the subject were creation myths in general, because the story of Adam and Eve does have parallels with other creation stories, and obviously, we think other's stories are, indeed, myths. The teacher's approach to that would be a little more difficult, and given most of the students would be Christian, I would hope s/he would be sensitive to that.

In this case I brought up, it was a fleeting reference. Like I said, I figured she was hoping to goad one of the Christians a bit. You know, "Teacher, the Bible is truth, and the creation is no myth!" After which she gets to condescendingly lecture the student on the meaning of literary myths.

But I see no purpose to your teacher calling it a "myth," other than her personal desire to plant a seed. One of the reasons it's inappropriate to teach the Bible is true is because not all students are Christian. It only makes sense that the same should hold true for teaching the Bible is false--Christian students shouldn't be subjected to that in a public school.

Elphaba

You are more sensitive than I. I figured she was trying to highlight that in English "myth" does not mean "false," it simply means literary story. Since she did not get a reaction, she tried to goad the question, only to have one of the Christians give her the very answer she was prepared to explain. It was a sweet moment, actually. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ELPHABA:

"But I see no purpose to your teacher calling it a "myth," other than her personal desire to plant a seed. One of the reasons it's inappropriate to teach the Bible is true is because not all students are Christian. It only makes sense that the same should hold true for teaching the Bible is false--Christian students shouldn't be subjected to that in a public school."

I have a problem with any teacher who feels it is appropriate to bait their students, regardless of the beliefs of anyone involved, or the subject matter involved in the baiting. Not appropriate behavior at all from the teacher.

That said, I have no problem at all with the phrase 'creation myth', if we are talking about that category of stories universal to (all/most/many) cultures describing the creation of the world. In a secular academic setting, to suggest that any of them are true, false, or more or less true than any others is inappropriate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a problem with any teacher who feels it is appropriate to bait their students, regardless of the beliefs of anyone involved, or the subject matter involved in the baiting. Not appropriate behavior at all from the teacher.

Not speaking of the specific incident referenced above, I disagree with your statement on a more general level. Baiting students encourages critical outside-the-box thought, the ability to understand viewpoints of one's opponent(s), and thoughtful debate. All of these are good things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figured she was trying to highlight that in English "myth" does not mean "false," it simply means literary story. Since she did not get a reaction, she tried to goad the question, only to have one of the Christians give her the very answer she was prepared to explain.

Thanks for the clarification. I had assumed, because you were piqued by the incident (is that an accurate description?), that she was using "myth" in its more literal context. Given she was using it in a literary context, I don't see that she did anything wrong. It sounds like she tried a novel approach where a more straightforward one would have been more appropriate, and successful. But I had previously seen an atheist agenda on her part, whereas now I don't.

ETA: I wanted to clarify my post. I don't see the type of goading your teacher used as appropriate, so I'm not saying she did nothing wrong. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume the attempt was genuinely to catch the students' interest, but I can still see why it was concerning to the Christians in the room. I just don't see it as the huge fault I had previously.

Elph

Edited by Elphaba
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not speaking of the specific incident referenced above, I disagree with your statement on a more general level. Baiting students encourages critical outside-the-box thought, the ability to understand viewpoints of one's opponent(s), and thoughtful debate. All of these are good things.

What you describe is called teaching; it involves actual respect and dialogue. Baiting is disrespectful or dismissive of the other person's viewpoint. It is the academic equivalent of trolling on a message board, and inappropriate in all situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Elpha, I think you and are are now in total agreement. Another fact in the teacher's favor...it was 1981, and America was far more open to intelligent debate and discussion about politics and religion back then. Today, most are far more think-skinned, and more easily offended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't find this offensive at all. It's a point of view being expressed via a print advertisement. I don't see it being any different than the christian rhetoric I see from time to time on billboards, bumper stickers, and so forth, or when AT&T runs an ad about how great their service is (which is clearly crap I might add).

What really offends me is when McDonalds only has their McRib available once a year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I missed Elphie's post above about teaching the Bible in schools. My senior year in high school, I took Humanities for my English credit. We did a unit on the Bible as literature. The focus was primarily on the Old Testament. Most of the stories were treated as allegorical, in a very non-offensive manner. My high school was not diverse by any means -- primarily Christian, though a variety of denominations. Us LDS students loved the unit because (1) we were all pretty familiar with the stories already anyway, (2) we had chapter headings we could read instead of reading the entire book of Job in one weekend, and (3) we had a seminary teacher we could talk to to ask questions if we had any.

Anyway, that teacher had included the Bible in her curriculum for many years, and if she's still teaching, I imagine she's still teaching the Bible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Remember the old Eastern saying; "He who angers you, controls you". If we take offence at things on behalf of others, whether the lord, ufo pilots, or physicists :) then we'll be continually angered, and thus controlled by the very people who want us to rise to the bait.

I can certainly see the gap between spiritually minded souls and hedonists widening all the time. While it can be saddening to think of those who 'fall by the wayside' being helped to do so by things like this, I think those with a spark inside see it for what it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can certainly see the gap between spiritually minded souls and hedonists widening all the time. While it can be saddening to think of those who 'fall by the wayside' being helped to do so by things like this, I think those with a spark inside see it for what it is.

Hedonists? Lacking a spark? :rolleyes:

Elphaba

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share