Why do people stop attending church?

[Anddenex]

@Theophan, what are you looking for? Were you looking for the "burning in the bosom?"

What is your understanding of the spirit? What is your understanding of how the Lord communicates to us?

[Theophan]

@anddenex. I don't have a clue anymore. I was looking for something, anything. A feeling of peace or certainty, a burning bosom, a prompting, serenity, unbidden thoughts, whatever. You know, the same kinds of spiritual experiences you hear church members talk about experiencing in varying forms all of the time, every single Sunday in every single meeting, no matter where you are in the world, that 'aha!' moment church members take note of when they feel something after they pray or when they hear or witness something that moves them at church or in the temple to say "I feel the spirit so strongly today." The kinds of experiences my pioneer ancestors wrote about in their diaries. That kind of thing. Other people were having these kinds of experiences. All I needed was something, anything remotely, recognizably distinct from the pounding of the blood in my ears, which is all I ever experienced during the countless times I would pray and listen for the same whisperings of the Spirit I was taught I would receive if I prayed in faith. That's what I was looking for. The exact same thing other church members look for when they pray for guidance and what investigators supposedly receive when they pray sincerely in response to Moroni's Challenge.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Theophan

[Anddenex]

@anddenex. I don't have a clue anymore. I was looking for something, anything. A feeling of peace, certainty, a burning bosom, serenity, unbidden thoughts, whatever. You know, the same kinds of spiritual experiences you hear church members talk about experiencing in varying forms all of the time, every single Sunday in every single meeting, no matter where you are in the world, that 'aha!' moment church members take note of when they feel something after they pray or when they hear or witness something that moves them at church or in the temple to say "I feel the spirit so strongly today." That kind of thing. Something. Anything remotely, recognizably distinct from the pounding of the blood in my ears, which is all I ever experienced during the countless times I would pray and listen for the whisperings of the Spirit. That's what I was looking for. The exact same thing other church members look for when they pray for guidance and what investigators supposedly receive when they pray sincerely in response to Moroni's Challenge.

Do you mean while you studied scriptures you never came across something new, something the Lord impressed upon your mind and heart as true?

A principle that was unclear and then became much clearer?

[Maureen]

...For people like me, the Church can be a family destroyer and a cause of depression.

IMO, this is the saddest thing that happens when once members leave the LDS church and loose their testimony; their family relationships suffer.

M.

[Theophan]

Do you mean while you studied scriptures you never came across something new, something the Lord impressed upon your mind and heart as true?

A principle that was unclear and then became much clearer?

Nope. Not once in relation to anything idiosyncratically LDS, and not for lack of trying. Alas. I've had many intellectual aha! moments in and out of the church, during both spiritual and non-spiritual study, but those are not the same.

[Anddenex]

IMO, this is the saddest thing that happens when once members leave the LDS church and loose their testimony; their family relationships suffer.

M.

This happens within any faith. Yes, indeed it is sad, however it is more tragic that someone looses their faith in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The family relationship will always suffer when someone removes themselves, it is a natural consequence to a personal decision.

[Anddenex]

Nope. Not once in relation to anything idiosyncratically LDS, and not for lack of trying. Alas. I've had many intellectual aha! moments in and out of the church, during both spiritual and non-spiritual study, but those are not the same.

Please explain "intellectual aha! moments" for me please, as you would describe them. Please understand, I know how I would describe them but I want to know how you would describe them.

Thank you.

[Theophan]

This happens within any faith. Yes, indeed it is sad, however it is more tragic that someone looses their faith in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The family relationship will always suffer when someone removes themselves, it is a natural consequence to a personal decision.

The LDS church is structured to produce an especially acute form of the heartache when the father has doubts and/or leaves. LDS dads are the priests of the family, baptizing and ordaining, giving blessings, etc. This is unique to Mormonism and only has parallels in certain rare instances (e.g., when an Eastern Orthodox priest, who can marry and have children, leaves the faith). When the dad leaves, there's a huge, gaping hole that cannot ever be filled until/unless the dad returns to his priesthosod duties. In most other churches, the doubting dad can still go with the family to be with them, to support them, sitting there quietly with them during services with no one the wiser. There isn't remotely the same kind of pressure on dads in those churches as exists in the LDS church. That pressure is what caused me to lie when I agreed to bless our babies and give my wife blessings, even though I no longer believed the church was true. That lying just about killed me. Once I came out of the closet as a non-believer to friends and family, I experienced another form of dying inside. But at least I was no longer lying to family and friends.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Theophan

[Theophan]

Please explain "intellectual aha! moments" for me please, as you would describe them. Please understand, I know how I would describe them but I want to know how you would describe them.

Thank you.

Hmm..how about the aha! moment I experienced when I finally grasped the meaning of red-shift, how it's measured, and how the measurement is used to establish evidence for the Big Bang. A light bulb went on. I've had similar moments reading the New Testament, Buddhist texts, science books, Plato, and the Book of Mormon. These are just flashes of insight. My experience of such moments was not unique to mormonism, hence their inadequacy for me during my faith crisis to establish whether the church was true.

[Anddenex]

There isn't remotely the same kind of pressure on dads in those churches as exists in the LDS church.

I would venture to say that this largely depends on the household of faith. In some homes, this would be correct, in others, the pressure is still there; otherwise, people would not disown a child for joining another faith, or disowning a husband for joining another faith.

Overtly, I would agree, it is easier to see in the LDS faith when someone isn't accepting the faith.

[Theophan]

I would venture to say that this largely depends on the household of faith. In some homes, this would be correct, in others, the pressure is still there.

Yes, I suppose you're right if dad became an atheist or a non-Christian. In the LDS case, however, it's not sufficient for the doubting dad who is still a Christian to only take the lead in prayers at home and attend church with the family. The fact that I refused to baptize and ordain the kids had consequences and that kind of terrible choice is never faced by men in most other Christian churches.

[Anddenex]

Hmm..how about the aha! moment I experienced when I finally grasped the meaning of red-shift, how it's measured, and how the measurement is used to establish evidence for the Big Bang. A light bulb went on. I've had similar moments reading the New Testament, Buddhist texts, science books, Plato, and the Book of Mormon. These are just flashes of insight. My experience of such moments was not unique to mormonism, hence their inadequacy for me during my faith crisis to establish whether the church was true.

Thank you. This is why I enjoy Joseph Smith's words describing the spirit and our enlightenment as from God,

"When you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus."

( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 151.)

My question, why do you think the spirit, this pure intelligence which flows through us, would speak differently when reading a science book, a book from Plato, or a book from a buddhist text?

I have read a Buddhist text, a Hindu text, words from Krishnamurti "To be Human" and have felt the Lord's spirit enlighten me the same way as when I read the Book of Mormon.

Why do you think it would be different?

EDIT: Please understand you are conversing with an individual who has never felt "the burning in the bosom" as described by others who have received such a wonderful witness.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Anddenex

[Theophan]

Thank you. This is why I enjoy Joseph Smith's words describing the spirit and our enlightenment as from God,

My question, why do you think the spirit, this pure intelligence which flows through us, would speak differently when reading a science book, a book from Plato, or a book from a buddhist text?

I have read a Buddhist text, a Hindu text, words from Krishnamurti "To be Human" and have felt the Lord's spirit enlighten me the same way as when I read the Book of Mormon.

Why do you think it would be different?

EDIT: Please understand you are conversing with an individual who has never felt "the burning in the bosom" as described by others who have received such a wonderful witness.

I appreciate the reply. I suppose the issue for me has always been that if such experiences of enlightenment aren't unique to Mormonism, it follows they can't be used as evidence for Mormonism. They can be used as evidence of a pure intelligence flowing through us. Specific spiritual evidences for the truth of Mormonism must be unique to Mormonism. It must be only within the LDS church that such testimony-building experiences can be had.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Theophan. I hope you are doing well! :)

Hmm..how about the aha! moment I experienced when I finally grasped the meaning of red-shift, how it's measured, and how the measurement is used to establish evidence for the Big Bang. A light bulb went on. I've had similar moments reading the New Testament, Buddhist texts, science books, Plato, and the Book of Mormon. These are just flashes of insight. My experience of such moments was not unique to mormonism, hence their inadequacy for me during my faith crisis to establish whether the church was true.

Its these small little impressions that I latched on to early in my faith journey. In fact, most of my experiences in the gospel have been the types of experiences you describe. Are they unique to Mormonism? Of course not! It is unique to the Spirit! That is a way that the Spirit speaks to us, through flashes of intelligence and insight.

My testimony is primarily the sum of small "aha moments" accumulated over a period of many years.

Regards,

Finrock

[Theophan]

Thank you. This is why I enjoy Joseph Smith's words describing the spirit and our enlightenment as from God,

My question, why do you think the spirit, this pure intelligence which flows through us, would speak differently when reading a science book, a book from Plato, or a book from a buddhist text?

I have read a Buddhist text, a Hindu text, words from Krishnamurti "To be Human" and have felt the Lord's spirit enlighten me the same way as when I read the Book of Mormon.

Why do you think it would be different?

EDIT: Please understand you are conversing with an individual who has never felt "the burning in the bosom" as described by others who have received such a wonderful witness.

I appreciate the reply. I suppose the issue for me has always been that if such experiences of enlightenment aren't unique to Mormonism, it follows they can't be used as evidence for Mormonism. It only makes sense to conclude that spiritual experiences that build LDS testimonies must be available only within an LDS context. What's a person to do if the exact same spiritual experience results from prayers about the truth of Book of Mormon, the Buddhist Heart Sutra, and the Koran? All that does is confirm that God is part of all three.

[Anddenex]

I appreciate the reply. I suppose the issue for me has always been that if such experiences of enlightenment aren't unique to Mormonism, it follows they can't be used as evidence for Mormonism. They can be used as evidence of a pure intelligence flowing through us. Specific spiritual evidences for the truth of Mormonism must be unique to Mormonism. It must be only within the LDS church that such testimony-building experiences can be had.

I appreciate your candid responses.

I can understand why you feel that these experiences "must...only" be within the Church. It would stand with reason and logic that this must be so.

Yet, when I contemplate our Heavenly Father who has shared he loves all of his children, I agree that he is no respecter of persons.

Then, I contemplate even further, would a father communicate any differently with one son than another, or would his voice and instruction be the same (Now we are not talking about times when we were in trouble ) no matter where they lived, what school they attended, or what faith they adhere to?

I have come to understand his voice is the same for all his children, however, for some reason some of my brother's and sister's experience the burning, an overwhelming of peace and joy, like no other place -- this was my father's experience, but not my mother's experience, and not my own.

EDIT: As a father is your voice of instruction and education any different with any of your sons or daughters? Do you speak differently to those who listen and to those that don't?

Edited June 21, 2013 by Anddenex

[Finrock]

Another way that I have gained my testimony that has sustained me through all of my trials has been by practicing the principle of "doing to know the word". I love how Heber C. Kimball speaks to it:

Some time ago I brought up a figure. Say I, John, Timothy, Jack, Peter—I do not care who they are—you go up above the arsenal and dig a well, and dig ten or twelve feet, and you shall find a good spring of water. “Well,” says brother John, “I have no confidence in that, that there can be water got there, neither have I any confidence in you as an Apostle.” Say I, I do not care whether you have or not: go and do as I tell you, and you shall be paid for it. You go and dig a well, and dig twelve feet, and find a good spring of water. Now, do you not get the knowledge of that water without a particle of faith or confidence? It is in the works.

Some say, “What is the use of my doing this, or that, or the other thing? I have no faith in it.” I do not care a dime for your faith. They produce the knowledge; and then, do you not see, knowledge swallows up faith before you ever had it?

Did you ever know anything to swallow a thing when it was not? Yes, the Methodist's God has neither body, parts, nor passions; and yet they have swallowed him.

Well, now, this is a kind of curious doctrine, but it is true doctrine; for I never knew much faith in exercise in a man, except that man had good works, by going and doing as the servants of God say, to produce faith and knowledge.

Heber C. Kimball then relates the story of Naaman the Assyrian who was asked to wash in the river Jordan to be healed of leporasy. Then he finishes:

Do you not see that is the principle that we must be actuated by? I care not whether you have any faith or not: you go and do as you are told to do, and that produces knowledge; and how long will it be before we shall be presented into the presence of Jesus Christ, the Son of God? It will not be but a little while.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited June 21, 2013 by Finrock

[Traveler]

I appreciate the reply. I suppose the issue for me has always been that if such experiences of enlightenment aren't unique to Mormonism, it follows they can't be used as evidence for Mormonism. It only makes sense to conclude that spiritual experiences that build LDS testimonies must be available only within an LDS context. What's a person to do if the exact same spiritual experience results from prayers about the truth of Book of Mormon, the Buddhist Heart Sutra, and the Koran? All that does is confirm that God is part of all three.

I find your thought interesting but perhaps incomplete? Some years ago I did consulting work for the Federal Reserve Bank. It was fun to observe regularly millions of dollars. After seeing so much money every day one kind of becomes numb to the value. After all it is just paper.

While there I had a fun exchange with one of the "managers". I wondered about what he could tell me concerning counterfeits. It would seem that cleaver counterfeiters could duplicate everything the US government did to identify "real" money. I was told that there is a 100% sure never miss, way to determine real money from even the most perfect counterfeit - a method that always works.

What I found so intriguing about his method that in thinking about it - not only does his method work for money but it also works for identifying counterfeit religion as well.

Now that I have told you that there is an exact no fail method to determine a counterfeit from a genuine - how interested are you -- really?

I have discovered that many really do not want to know a counterfeit from a genuine. Many are so rapped up in what they think they have to be genuine that they will actually get angry at anyone that "shows" them otherwise and their treasure looses it value to them. In other words most are so enamored with what they think is the value of their "treasure" that they do not want to know the truth of it - sometimes even if it is genuine because there is the fear that it might not be; so they do not want to know the true value. So with money they would rather pass it on to others and let someone else worry than to know the truth.

So - would you like to know if the money you value is real? Would you like to know if your religious beliefs are counterfeit? What method do you currently use to determine a counterfeit from the genuine?

The Traveler

[skippy740]

This is the only way I can think of:

[mrmarklin]

So that talk is specifically regarding new converts. What about life-long members?

It's the same.

The Church is a social organization, and without a comfort level and social interaction most people will gravitate toward other people and activities that they perceive they have more in common with.

Note the order in which the three things mentioned are in. That's not accidental.

[Guest auberge]

The way I see it is because some writings that most members rarely hear or talk about. However, non members read these and see something different. For example in this excerpt from the History of the Church some might think The prophet was placing himself above Jesus by writing this.

"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

page 409

of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

The logic behind it is simple imho. If Joseph Smith could do something even Jesus couldn't...let's focus on Joseph Smith, and even some members of the church see it that way as well.