You Level of Engagement in Sacrament Meeting


Guest mormonmusic
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What describes your level of interest in Sacrament meeting?  

18 members have voted

  1. 1. What describes your level of interest in Sacrament meeting?

    • I'm consistently engaged and interested in the proceedings.
    • I'm somewhat engaged in the proceedings
    • I'm neutral on it -- neither engaged or bored
    • I'm somehwat disinterested or bored.
    • I'm consistently bored in the meeting.


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Guest mormonmusic

This is related to another post I made about increasing engagement in Sacrament meeting. I wanted to get people's individual perceptions about sacrament meeting to diagnose if this is even a problem. I may use this information to write up a proposal to our Bishopric about increasing the level of engagement our membership has with Sacrament meeting. This will be only one of a few surveys I will do -- another one at the local level.

Please take the poll and share your level of interest/engagement in Sacrament meeting in general, recognizing that as it stands, Sacrament meeting does provide many positives -- such as opportunities to learn, speak, etcetera. Thanks!

Edited by mormonmusic
Spelling errors in the title I can't seem to fix
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Now keep in mind... if I have to go to one Sabbath meeting, it is sacrement. I believe the sacrement is holy and vital to the church. I will make that meeting even if there is skipping the other two hours.

However, after the sacrement, my attention wanes. I like the beginning. I like hearing an opening song. I like hearing any announcement. I try to make the partaking of the sacrement meaningful.

But after that... seriously, there are so many times when I just open my scriptures and read. I even had few qualms about leaving after the sacrement, if my schedule requires it.

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I make an effort to pay attention; I don't know if that means I am engaged or not.

Not that it is easy all the time; there are times when the speakers are uninteresting or hard to follow or just plain bad, which makes it difficult. Also, for the month or so I attended a family ward, there were consistently problems with the sound system, so speakers were generally drowned out by shouting children; it was as though a sacrament meeting had broken out in the middle of a daycare.

Of course, being at a singles/university ward has its own problems. I get that not everyone can be engaged during the meeting, but little groups talking amongst themselves is not helping matters. Just like the university, some of us are there to learn. :rolleyes:

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Do you think your Bishop will be able to approve use of drums or songs not in the hymn book? Or that approval can come from the Stake? hmmmm... maybe you'd better send your survey results to Pres. Monson. :)

In all honesty I had to laugh when I read your surveys.

I have found that I'm most engaged in Sacrement Meeting when I'm most intuned with the spirit. If you're not feeling it, then you have moved away from the spirit.

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Guest mormonmusic

Do you think your Bishop will be able to approve use of drums or songs not in the hymn book? Or that approval can come from the Stake? hmmmm... maybe you'd better send your survey results to Pres. Monson. :)

In all honesty I had to laugh when I read your surveys.

I have found that I'm most engaged in Sacrement Meeting when I'm most intuned with the spirit. If you're not feeling it, then you have moved away from the spirit.

Sadly, I'm going to have to disagree with these comments. I think you should read the new CHI -- I did.

I feel we put the onus on the members to keep the spirituality of Mother Theresa and Ghandi to enjoy our meetings at times. And people are at all different levels spiritually -- many at low points who need a boost. We put the onus on the backs of little children to sit quietly when there is little for their age-group -- to the point I've heard many young families say they wonder why they even bother to come (I've heard this a lot). I have interacted with a lot of less-actives in my last calling, and one of the themes for not coming was boring meetings.

Now, I do enjoy sacrament meeting some time. But I think there is definitely room for improvement.

Regarding other instruments, the new CHI says that other instruments can be used that are in keeping with the spirit of hymns, as can contemporary music (We are as the armies of Helaman is a case in point, from Janice Kapp Perry). So in that respect I've already checked with Pres Monson and he said yes :)

As I said in the survey "approved instruments" other than piano or organ. In my view drums and electric guitars are out -- flutes, violins, even classical guitar or other wind instruments could be used (in my opinion) provided they enhance the worshipful aspect of our meetings. I think as a Church we assume it has to be piano or organ; it doesn't. And it can be instrumental or choral, says the new Handbook last time I read it.

I also think comments like the ones above are indicative of the boxed-in culture we sometimes create for ourselves that doesn't consider more liberal options that are completely justifiable and worthwhile , and even in the CHI -- simply because it's the way we've always done things -- time for a fresh perspective in my view.

Edited by mormonmusic
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I am like Backroads. The blessing and passing of the Sacrament holds my interest, but the speakers often do not.

I like what Elder Holland said several years ago at a stake conference I was at: we need to set our pulpits on fire. Or, as he taught in General Conference (A Teacher Called From God), if we teach with power from the Holy Spirit, the investigators/converts (and others) will not be kept away from the meeting.

Members either do not prepare much at all, or if they do, it is often preparation of ideas and quotes and stories, but not spiritual preparation. I'd love to see all Sacrament speakers fast while preparing their talks, pray for long periods over what should be in the talk, stay away from things that detract from the Spirit (R rated movies, whatever), and focus on things that induce the Holy Spirit's power.

What awesome meetings we would then have!

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Well, you've got to take into account the variables. First, every sacrament meeting is different, so it would be natural to react to each one differently. Also, some weeks I may be tired, distracted by other concerns, feeling sick, feeling great, in a super-spiritual mood, or whatever, any of which would affect my level of engagement or interest in the meeting. So... in my case, none of the answers to the poll would apply consistently every week. ;)

Personally, I think we should treat sacrament meeting primarily as a worship service, not a meeting for instruction. We have two more hours for instruction, after all. It should always, always be focused squarely on the Savior, not just for special occasions. And the sacrament should be the meeting's main event, not just something to get out of the way before moving on to the talks.

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However, after the sacrement, my attention wanes. I like the beginning. I like hearing an opening song. I like hearing any announcement. I try to make the partaking of the sacrement meaningful.

But after that... seriously, there are so many times when I just open my scriptures and read.

Ditto, particularly during Fast and Testimony meeting. Kinda ironic when Fast Sunday is the least interesting and (IMHO) with the stream of Thankimonies, Travelogues, My-Life-Sucks-imonies and just pure rambling probably the least spiritual.

Edited by Dravin
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Do you think your Bishop will be able to approve use of drums or songs not in the hymn book? Or that approval can come from the Stake? hmmmm... maybe you'd better send your survey results to Pres. Monson. :)

CHI 14.4.2, regarding music in Sunday meetings.

Regarding other instruments, the new CHI says that other instruments can be used that are in keeping with the spirit of hymns, as can contemporary music (We are as the armies of Helaman is a case in point, from Janice Kapp Perry). So in that respect I've already checked with Pres Monson and he said yes :)

The old CHI said the same thing. I was in charge of music for my ward until about a year ago -- I don't think there have been any changes in that section.

As I said in the survey "approved instruments" other than piano or organ. In my view drums and electric guitars are out -- flutes, violins, even classical guitar or other wind instruments could be used (in my opinion) provided they enhance the worshipful aspect of our meetings. I think as a Church we assume it has to be piano or organ; it doesn't. And it can be instrumental or choral, says the new Handbook last time I read it.

I've seen acoustic guitars used in the chapel for non-Sacrament meeting events, but I believe that it's generally a discouraged-for-that-context instrument.

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Sadly, I'm going to have to disagree with these comments. I think you should read the new CHI -- I did.

I feel we put the onus on the members to keep the spirituality of Mother Theresa and Ghandi to enjoy our meetings at times. And people are at all different levels spiritually -- many at low points who need a boost. We put the onus on the backs of little children to sit quietly when there is little for their age-group -- to the point I've heard many young families say they wonder why they even bother to come (I've heard this a lot). I have interacted with a lot of less-actives in my last calling, and one of the themes for not coming was boring meetings.

Now, I do enjoy sacrament meeting some time. But I think there is definitely room for improvement.

Regarding other instruments, the new CHI says that other instruments can be used that are in keeping with the spirit of hymns, as can contemporary music (We are as the armies of Helaman is a case in point, from Janice Kapp Perry). So in that respect I've already checked with Pres Monson and he said yes :)

As I said in the survey "approved instruments" other than piano or organ. In my view drums and electric guitars are out -- flutes, violins, even classical guitar or other wind instruments could be used (in my opinion) provided they enhance the worshipful aspect of our meetings. I think as a Church we assume it has to be piano or organ; it doesn't. And it can be instrumental or choral, says the new Handbook last time I read it.

I also think comments like the ones above are indicative of the boxed-in culture we sometimes create for ourselves that doesn't consider more liberal options that are completely justifiable and worthwhile , and even in the CHI -- simply because it's the way we've always done things -- time for a fresh perspective in my view.

I appreciate your comments. Nothing you've added here isn't already being done in many places. I'm still struggling to figure out the problem.

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Guest mormonmusic

I appreciate your comments. Nothing you've added here isn't already being done in many places. I'm still struggling to figure out the problem.

Thanks for recognizing that these suggestions are not outlandish and are perfectly consistent with the CHI. You sounded quite sarcastic with your comments that you were laughing at the surveys, and that I needed to check with the Prophet.

To answer your other question, here is the problem:

1. My visits with many less actives have unearthed Sacrament meeting boredom as one reason they don't come to Church.

2. As a missionary I lost investigators who found Church unstimulating -- particularly Sacrament meeting.

3. I myself find myself often bored, confirming the perceptions of the other two groups I have spoken to. I never express this openly on a local level or at home, but in my heart -- I feel their pain.

4. My kids often don't want to go to Church because they find it boring.

5. Many other active members find the meetings boring and have said so. A survey above indicates that a large percentage of people are not fully engaged in our Sacrament meetings.

6. When I was a YM President, youth would often cite boredom as a cause of disinterest in Church.

Simply expecting everyone to look at Sacrament meeting through the lens of overpowering spirituality (including people who are barely hanging on to their activity, or who are young and immature, like kids) isn't the answer in my view -- particularly when there are things we can leverage in the existing CHI of that could increase the worth and value of our meetings -- and which are not widely used. At least not in the 18 Wards I've lived in as a full-time missionary and member at large.

It's a common principle that blessings come to us AFTER we have done all we can do....and if this means rethinking the same old ways we've been doing things to improve things, then so be it.

You've unearthed another problem -- that often, we look at thing the same way we have doing things for years as the norm, ior even the best way to do things, and unchangeable without approval from above, even when the Handbook GIVES us such latitude to be better.

And my last comment -- just because it's true doesn't give us the license to simply do things the same old way all the time, especially when there is so much evidence we could do better.

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M-Music, you make a lot of really good points. As someone who has been attending meetings as an investigator for about 2-1/2 months, I can corroborate a lot of what you've said. Sacrament meetings are generally interesting, but not always; I find it depends in large part on the speakers. Fast Sunday meetings are uniformly uninteresting and often confusing, largely for the reasons Dravin mentioned earlier in this thread. (My first thread ever posted on these boards was to the effect of "Is this what is supposed to happen at a testimony meeting?"). So I can identify, at least on a small scale.

All of that said, I'm not sure that the answer is necessarily to be found in changing the character of the music. I say this because I've been in churches where there has been declining interest in Sunday services, and they changed to a contemporary worship format, thinking that sticking a praise band up front* would bring people (young people, especially) flocking to their church. There was a brief uptick in attendance followed by a continued drop, as well as growing dissatisfaction among the older people, and those who were more traditional. I've actually seen it play out this way in a couple of churches.

I know you're not suggesting a praise band (you specifically said drums and guitars were right out), but I say this only because I would be skeptical that the key to getting people excited about sacrament meeting lies in the music. I don't pretend to have any real answers, but I'm not sure its there.

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Good point Last-Daze -- I don't believe changing the music is a sudden fix, but I do see it as an improvement -- definitely. On my list was also a "How To Give a Spiritually Uplifting Talk" series of classes in Sunday school -- maybe two or three. This speaks to your concern about speakers. That is the least popular option, surprisingly (so far).

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From where I'm standing, sacrament meeting is a time for me to renew my covenants with God and decrease the distance between us. Asking me to rate my 'level of engagement' with sacrament meeting, feels sort of like asking me to rate the level of engagement with museum staff as I take in all the displays.

It ain't about you. It's about God.

LM

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Good point Last-Daze -- I don't believe changing the music is a sudden fix, but I do see it as an improvement -- definitely. On my list was also a "How To Give a Spiritually Uplifting Talk" series of classes in Sunday school -- maybe two or three. This speaks to your concern about speakers. That is the least popular option, surprisingly (so far).

So you did; I missed that. That would be something I would think people could get behind, not least because it is not hard to do; there is a ton of material out there on how to give good sacrament talks, more than enough to build a 2 or 3 lesson curriculum.

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Guest mormonmusic

From where I'm standing, sacrament meeting is a time for me to renew my covenants with God and decrease the distance between us. Asking me to rate my 'level of engagement' with sacrament meeting, feels sort of like asking me to rate the level of engagement with museum staff as I take in all the displays.

It ain't about you. It's about God.

LM

I notice at least one comment above indicating that the part you mention -- renewing covenants -- as being engaging. I think I share the perception.

On the other hand, the whole "it's not about you" argument I find empty. It's about BOTH of us... God and myself, and I personally feel distant from God when I'm exposed to a highly repetitive situation that I don't get much out of. I end up feeling closer to God by continuing the detached meditation I feel when taking the sacrament rather than engaging with the meeting. I also feel detached when my kids are so bored they are terrorizing the people around us, fighting etcetera and requiring me to find creative ways to keep them in their pew (such as Sacrament Bingo, and other listening exercises).

I have tried at times to listen intensely to the speakers, to find something sincerely moving or good about what they have done, and then invest time in strengthening the person afterwards with complements, however I find that difficult to sustain weekly, over a 20 to 30 year period.

I also think you're completely ignoring the needs of children, youth, and new converts who have not yet achieved the spirituality to handle the meeting with the kind of selfless spirituality you have apparently attained. Also, you ignore the data above which shows that there are some who are definitely not into it in its current format, and support improvement.

Now, am I proposing sweeping changes? Definitely not -- but I am proposing we try harder to break some of the mental blocks to implementing even the more liberal approaches to music that we find in our own handbook. Apple Pansy's original response is a case in point -- she couldn't initially see how much of what I was proposing would even be allowed given its absence from our meetings and the "embedding" of the way we normally do things in our culture -- when it's actually part of the manual and allowed -- and , according to Wingnut -- was part of the OLD Handbook. Such is the power of culture and tradition to blind us.

I had one meeting that totally uplifted me a while ago. There was an instrumentalist that played beautifully in Sacrament meeting. The music itself lifted me and flooded my spirit. Then two speakers gave talks where they used several of the 6 Ways of inviting the Spirit. I would love to see a concerted effort to improve those aspects of our meetings so we can do it more consistently. Interesting -- we spend the majority of our three hour block (all of it, in fact) in either teaching, musical or speaking situations, yet I feel these areas are given only cursory attention in most Wards through skill development -- and they have a HUGE impact on building desires to fellowship and hear the message.

There is definitely room for improvement....and I'm making plans to be proactive about trying to improve the quality of our meetings in our Ward. This survey is part of it.

[by the way, I would also like to see a more concerted effort to inspire desire in people to develop musical talents -- including people who lack funds to develop those talents -- perhaps as a program in the Ward, with recitals held at Church to showcase and encourage the development of musical talents, and more open use of Church pianos for private lessons and potentially, even practice for people who can't afford them and have no other alternative. I would also see some more small group performances to encourage the Spirit and bring our worship to a different level of engagement].

Edited by mormonmusic
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it was as though a sacrament meeting had broken out in the middle of a daycare.

Not only are you clever, you can use the subjunctive when it's called for. Two thumbs up! :D

We LDS people have a way of blaming those who struggle for their own problems. Don't feel the spirit close? Well, it's you who moved. Random practice/tradition doesn't resonate with you? Well, you're not doing it right. We need to get away from the idea that if you do everything right, things will go your way. You can do everything in your power to be obedient and still have misfortune, suffering, and doubt.

Sacrament meetings vary - some are very uplifting, others are completely irrelevant, outside of the sacrament itself. I'd love to see it more engaging! I appreciate any efforts in that direction, even if (especially if!) they shake up "how we've always done it."

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I have to admit I've struggled with the Sacrament meetings. I posted about the kids' noise as distracting. I've learned to sit up front, which helps. kinda I think we have good speakers and some not so good, but as a prof who has to listen to a lot of 'not so good' student presentations during the year, I don't mind a speaker who's not the best. It's hard getting up in front of people to speak, it's hard creating a speech/lesson if you aren't used to it, so I try to cut folks some slack.

I remember receiving Communion as a Catholic. I remember feeling at one with the Lord then, even as a child. I am glad there is Sacrament meeting so that I can take the time to remember and pray. Sometimes I pray that the parent will take the crying kid out of the chapel:D, but usually my thoughts and prayers are on a higher level. I can deal with what goes on around the Sacrament because I am so eager for it and to put my head in that space.

Fast Sunday was a bit strange. I forgot it was Fast Sunday, so though I had read about what goes on, I wasn't prepared for the flow of testimonies. I could probably do without that every month, but I understand why, emotionally and spiritually, people have a need to give their testimonies. I'm just not sure I need to hear it every month. But, I'll probably forget again and be sitting there next month. :lol:

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