Evidence of Christ in America


Kurt
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To give you some idea, I still believed in Santa Claus when I was 10!

WHAT? There is no Santa Claus?! (I know, old joke reaction). But actually, on that point and very OT, Coca Cola's red Santa was an advertising change from the old guy being dressed in green. He was in green because he was Hearn, or Cerrunos, the Green Man; the old 'pagan' god. He has twigs in his hair and beard, and ruled creation quietly from behind the scenes with his goddess. This was central to shamanistic practises. Him coming 'down the chimney', or more accurately, down through the Yurt opening, and returning again, was symbolic of him appearing to the shaman. Reindeer or horses took him back to the heavens, depending upon the times and where tribes lived.

Anyway... To consider your points Jamie, I think there are many dichotomies or paradoxes in the church. Members are told to accept without concrete evidence, yet told also to think for themselves. The glory of god is intelligence, yet when someone comes up with an unanswerable question or topic, they're said to be confused, or 'looking beyond the mark', or 'not yet ready for the meat', and so on. I've heard seemingly wise people say that everything is revealed in secret, yet years later they leave the church and say they were smugly fooling themselves. So, as in everything, what we perceive and feel is true is up to us - and us alone. I'd say that wise church members know this, and many others don't want to consider it; they want to feel safe. Nothing wrong with that though.

As to divine revelation, again we have a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, church doctrine teaches that we can all have revelation by the spirit, and even see angels and more. Yet we're also told that if anything we perceive seems not to be in line with official doctrine then we're being fooled by the adversary. (In this sense, let's put aside inter-family feuds in the church's past, who should be prophet, etc., and think about what it means to us as individuals). I don't try to tell things as I see them, but I think the questions are very interesting. In fact, the questions often lead to revelations we may not have expected, or ever have considered.

Oh, secular evidence of Christ in the Middle East. Yes, I've read of some things, and there's even some evidence of him travelling to the Far East. However, even such evidence could be tinted by myth, so I neither believe nor disbelieve it.

On the subject of paradoxes, as I mentioned it, I like an expression a poet/author made in one book; "A paradox does not mean that something is irrefutably wrong, simply that we don't yet understand what we're seeing".

Edited by IAmTheWork
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WHAT? There is no Santa Claus?! (I know, old joke reaction). But actually, on that point and very OT, Coca Cola's red Santa was an advertising change from the old guy being dressed in green. He was in green because he was Hearn, or Cerrunos, the Green Man; the old 'pagan' god. He has twigs in his hair and beard, and ruled creation quietly from behind the scenes with his goddess. This was central to shamanistic practises. Him coming 'down the chimney', or more accurately, down through the Yurt opening, and returning again, was symbolic of him appearing to the shaman. Reindeer or horses took him back to the heavens, depending upon the times and where tribes lived.

Umm, no. Santa Claus : Postcard Images, Antique Postcards on Magnets

Also, the reindeer bit was invented by Clement C. Moore.

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A few notes of my own.

1. I do not believe that the descendents of Lehi were the only residents of the Americas from 600 BC on. There is evidence that the Egyptians, Phoenicians and the Chinese had all successfully reached and colonized (traded) in the Americas as much as 1,000 years before Lehi. Because testing is mostly based on Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from the mother) mixed populations would skew DNA results both for Jewish DNA and Native American DNA. The Book of Mormon itself gives some credence to the possibility that direct descendents of Lehi were small minority among the populations.

2. No one knows for sure where the Book of Mormon American sites were located or for certainty how vast of areas were covered. If Mesoamerica was where the family of Lehi settled it is quite possible that the Mayan civilization was somehow related. However, less than 3% of the known Mayan ruins have been secured and studied. Thus two things about the Mayan sites studied - almost all were constructed around 400 AD which is after the Nephit fall and would have little or no evidence of Book of Mormon civilization. And second; finding Nephit’s artifacts would be like searching for a needle in a haystack - which is counter to normal non-bias scientific methods.

3. It is not unscientific to make an assumption and look for evidence but many scoff at this method and claim it invalid - still it is not uncommon. With this in mind many things begin to have a different meaning than previously many have thought of in history. An example is the search for the Fountain of Youth by Ponce de Leon. If one realizes that Jesus is the source of “living waters” and that there were among the Nephits not just stories but actual individuals that had drank of the living water living from time to time among the population then the “foolish” search for a spring based on stories of individuals of eternal youth is not unrealistic fantasy - so much as a misinterpretation of what was fact at one time.

One thing that is interesting to me - two individuals can look at the same scripture and come to opposite conclusions as to its meaning both claiming to be inspired by “the Holy Spirit”. With all the evidence directly in front of us - we cannot get Republicans and Democrats to agree on what is the best way for government to assist in job creation. To someone that does not want to believe - no amount of evidence is enough - G-d himself could stand before them (as he did 2000 years ago) and they still would not believe. Only someone that is willing to pay the price of truth will enjoy it.

The Traveler

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Sure, I will have a look, though I personally don't hold 'peer reviewed' as meaning too much. It depends entirely upon who the peers are, who funds them, what the agenda (innocent though it may be) behind their work is, and so on.

That's an appropriate stand. And it's also pretty true that the only peers of Maxwell's degreed LDS scientists and scholars, are other degreed LDS scientists and scholars.

Or, to put it another way, there is no such thing as (for example) a non-LDS DNA scientist publishing scholarly papers on DNA and the BoM. I wish there was - they might be able to help quiet down all the ignorance from the critics. I figure they'd have to mostly agree with the stuff FARMS is producing.

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Guest DeborahC

Here's the deal for me... I'm 57.

When I was a child, when preachers would read about how when Jesus comes "every eye will see him" we thought that was a fairy tale. We thought "How is everyone on EARTH going to see him? Is he THAT BIG!!???"

We never DREAMED of anything like the internet or a television in every room!

We never DREAMED of talking to someone while you look at them (as on Skype) until the Jetsons cartoons came out.. .and then it was 'cartoons.' And within the next few years, you will not talk to a blank screen, but to a holographic image of the person. If you would have told me this 30 years ago, I would have laughed in your face!

So when people say things like "they haven't discovered BOM historical sites in the US" or "that concept doesn't make sense in my reality" I just say... perhaps they/it will someday?

And regarding history.. really who cares? I mean I don't "think" I believe the earth is only 6000 years old either. I'm a college graduate with enough science under my belt.

BUT...

I also do not believe everything that "science" teaches is true.

Science changes with every new discovery.

I do not believe it has proven that humans descend from apes.

It is a THEORY because there is that one missing link.

And besides, if we evolved from apes... why are there still apes?

Dating techniques like carbon dating are not 100% accurate, and often they are simply INaccurate, and really, the bottom line is "nobody knows for sure."

I also do not TRUST my government or the science it tries to smother me with. The scientists backing any administration are out to make a dollar... and often very good research is ignored while research supporting THEIR cause is touted. It can be dangerous to disagree with huge scientific corporations like Monsanto, for instance. If you don't believe me, do a Google search on 'dead microbiologists' and come to your own conclusions.

So rather than blather on... I'm just going to put in my 2 cents ...

and that is,

"I don't care."

What I DO care about is the statement that "By their fruits you will know them"

and this Church produces better fruit than any other denomination I've explored, or been involved in, including most of the Protestant , Catholic, and pagan paths.

I do not claim to "believe" 100% of what this church teaches.

But for me, it has been impossible to believe 100% of what ANY church teaches.

So.. I stacked them all up next to each other... and the LDS Church won.

If I'm wrong.. so what?

I'm sure God will know I've sincerely sought Him out...

and my life has been better for it.:)

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Glenn Beck discussed the Batcreek Stone on his program, presenting it as if it were proven to be genuine. He then goes into his obligatory conspiracy theory where the government/scientists/Smithsonian colluded to keep it from us.

Elphaba

I guess you'd have to include the Church in that list also:estaloco:

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Umm, no. Santa Claus : Postcard Images, Antique Postcards on Magnets

Also, the reindeer bit was invented by Clement C. Moore.

Nice catch! Yep, I should have looked back a bit further for the red coat there. Mind you, regarding the reindeer, I was referring to shamans of the Laplands. The reindeer there specifically seek out and gorge on hallucinogenic mushrooms, though it's not clear from what I've read whether they go off on trips like shamans have done in the past.

If I'm wrong.. so what? I'm sure God will know I've sincerely sought Him out... and my life has been better for it.

Your whole post was lovely, and pretty inspirational, I thought. Thanks for that.

And thanks to those who've mentioned the Batcreek Stone, amongst other things. I had a read elsewhere and found it very interesting.

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Sure, I will have a look, though I personally don't hold 'peer reviewed' as meaning too much. It depends entirely upon who the peers are, who funds them, what the agenda (innocent though it may be) behind their work is, and so on.

I doubt I'll get any questions posted in another thread as I intended to, as I have online work to do as well as all this reading(!) and am also not sure I really need to ask some questions. :)

Well, BYU and the Maxwell Institute (part of BYU) have been involved in the Dead Sea Scrolls being translated and digitized for scholars everywhere to study. They have developed key tools for studying ancient documents, and even for improving the document so words that previously could not be seen can now be read. The MaxInst is one of the key places for translations of Arabic texts (under the guidance of Daniel Peterson). Some of the members of the MaxInst are also Dead Sea Scrolls translators (such as Dana Pike), and have published official DSS volumes on them.

LDS scholars from both MaxInst and FAIR are commonly speakers at events such as SBL and AAR, two of the major Bible and Archaeology seminars in the United States. Some of them hold chairs (or did hold them) at prestigious universities, such as Richard Bushman, who is Gouverneur Morris Professor of History emeritus at Columbia University.

So, I guess I'll let you decide whether such people are qualified or not.

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Just one other point: You may not find any direct physical vestages of Christ in the Middle East, but he is mentioned in so many secular histories of the time that it's hard to believe there wasn't a real man behind the stories. The difference with America is that there are (as far as I know) no secular documents of that period which did not come to us via Joseph Smith.

Personal revelation is important. But it is usually based on what we currently understand and are ready to receive. So Joseph Smith learned the gospel line upon line, and didn't get it all in one huge revelation.

As for Christ in the Middle East, there are no ancient documents of his time that mention him. Josephus wrote his history about 60 years after Jesus' death, and many scholars believe the notes on Jesus may have been added later by early Christians. However, most scholars believe that Josephus wrote something about Jesus, but that it was enhanced later by others. So, the early "secular histories" that include Jesus may not exist at all.

Beyond Josephus, there are potentially brief mentions of Christians by Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius in the early 2nd Century AD, but not directly of Jesus (that I'm aware of).

As for ancient documents in the Americas, Mesoamerica is believed to be the only place that had a written language. Of the books available, the Spaniards sought out and burned almost every book they could find as heretical. Only a handful of books survive, such as the Popul Vuh. These books, however, post date the Book of Mormon period by centuries, so we do not expect them to mention Nephi or Alma.

Also, ancient peoples did not think of history the way we do. Secular did not mean much to most of them. Josephus and Pliny were rare individuals for their time, and even then, Josephus' writings are not completely secular. Of the Mesoamerican books found, all are religious in nature. It is like seeking a history of the American Indian prior to Columbus. We can find ancient stories, but they are usually about brother fox outwitting his enemy, which has nothing to do with secular history, but everything to do with the things most important to the tribe/clan.

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So, I guess I'll let you decide whether such people are qualified or not.

Thanks for the information, which is one good reason for forums, I think. It's most helpful when people pull together information, saving others many hours of digging through sites and Google.

As to qualifications, peers, and so on; I grew up amongst professors and scientists, one or two of them very well known, and I then went on to train at a high level myself. Having seen what goes on behind the scenes over many years, I wouldn't trust the most qualified, best known, and even best loved scholars if butter genuinely didn't melt in their mouths. So much is hidden 'for the public good' that it's actually quite astounding. That doesn't stop what we can find out being uninteresting, though.

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Nice catch! Yep, I should have looked back a bit further for the red coat there. Mind you, regarding the reindeer, I was referring to shamans of the Laplands. The reindeer there specifically seek out and gorge on hallucinogenic mushrooms, though it's not clear from what I've read whether they go off on trips like shamans have done in the past.

I don't know about reindeer seeking out toadstools, but they do eat them from time to time. From what I can tell they act somewhat drunk. Connecting that to Santa Claus' flying reindeer is a stretch.

Lapps did not have gers. They lived in teepee-like tents, and trust me, you couldn't climb in through the smoke hole without destroying the tent. The same holds true for gers. The most damning factor (apart from people equivocating Laps and Buryats) is that in shamanism we are dealing with heavenly ascents. The shaman would undertake a journey, a soul flight, into the heavens, not vice-versa. Also, Buryats worshipped in sacred groves, not through smoke holes.

It seems to me like people are saying Santa Claus comes in through the chimney, yurts have smoke holes, so Sanata must be derived from shamanism. This is a case of absurd parallelomania. When the only practical source for heating your house was fire, then naturally you would have an opening to let out the smoke. If santa were going to sneak into a house, would he go through the bolted door or shuttered window?

Honestly, I don't see any evidence supporting the claim that Santa derives from shamanistic folklore.

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Also, in the reindeer case, we are dealing with literary constructs, not folk traditions. You have to show that Moore cosnciously selected those particular shamanist traditions (unfortunately they are bogus so that might be a little difficult to show) to fuse into his story inspired by American Dutch heritage.

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Beyond Josephus, there are potentially brief mentions of Christians by Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius in the early 2nd Century AD, but not directly of Jesus (that I'm aware of).

I don't entirely agree: Here's a quote from Tacitus' Annals of Imperial Rome (1956 Penguin Classics Edition, p.365):

To suppress this rumor [that Nero was himself responsible for the burning of Rome], Nero fabricated scapegoats - and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilatus. But in spite of this setback the deadly superstition had broken out afresh...

Now you're right in a way - this isn't a direct memoir based on personal contact with Jesus, but it does record the impact of Jesus' life on the society of that day, in a way which agrees closely with the Biblical account.

But like you say, we can't prove for certain that this account wasn't doctored in later ages.

Just one other unconnected point: Tacitus is obviously treading a fine line when he wrote this - condemning Nero's unjust actions while at the same time making it clear he didn't approve of the Christian religion. The political/religious situation must have been so volatile in those days, people had to be so careful what they said or wrote. It makes me so glad to live in a society which protects the freedom of speech.

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It is all word of mouth. The closest thing we have for proof of Christ's mortal life would be some of Paul's epistles, written about 20 years after Jesus' death.

Of course, there is the James ossuary, a bone burial box from that period that states: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." However, this is still going through court cases and disputes as to whether it is authentic or not.

James Ossuary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personally, I do think it is authentic, having studied both sides of the argument. The Israeli Antiquities Authority (IAA) does not seem to have done a very good job in determining it as a forgery. They used testimony from people who were not experts in specific fields of research. The judges in the cases (against those charged with forgery and fraud) regarding this and a few other questioned items have thrown out many of the charges already.

James Ossuary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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You have to show that Moore consciously selected those particular shamanist traditions (unfortunately they are bogus so that might be a little difficult to show) to fuse into his story inspired by American Dutch heritage.

The wonderful thing about life, volgadon, is that I don't have to show anything. :) We all discover what we discover for ourselves. Without getting into a protracted debate about it, I was merely hinting about shamanic practices of flying up to 'heaven' by the shaman, usually entwined in smoke, as smoke having ethereal qualities it's been seen for thousands of years as a conduit or helper in spiritual things. The shaman then came back via the same path taken heavenwards, the smoke being the unmissable trail to stop him from getting lost 'up there'. He returned with treasures for the tribe, though of course in the form of healings, predictions, etc.

When I began shamanic training years ago, with the assistance of a Native American who lived in southern Canada, I had such journeys quite naturally and without the use of any drug or alcohol. Shamanic practices are not always the same, but it's interesting that even Buddhist sects in the high mountains of Tibet/India continue some quite amazing shamanic practices which have been passed down since Mongol times (ie., the famous khans). A friend of mine who's a vicar in a mainstream church tells me of this, as she goes over there once every year for at least a month.

It's an interesting topic, but even many shamans say that the age of the shaman is long gone, and much is lost. Tracing such things in the academic sense is to miss much of what it's all about, and I'd say pretty much a waste of time except to record aspects of human tribal behaviour and ritual.

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The wonderful thing about life, volgadon, is that I don't have to show anything.

Ah yes, not backing up wild claims truly is a wonderful thing about life.

I fear you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not mean that you absolutely MUST show something, but rather that in order for anyone to take your claim seriously what you would need to do is show that Moore was influenced by shamanism and incoprporated it into his poem.

We all discover what we discover for ourselves.

Shades of Bert?

Without getting into a protracted debate about it, I was merely hinting about shamanic practices of flying up to 'heaven' by the shaman, usually entwined in smoke, as smoke having ethereal qualities it's been seen for thousands of years as a conduit or helper in spiritual things. The shaman then came back via the same path taken heavenwards, the smoke being the unmissable trail to stop him from getting lost 'up there'. He returned with treasures for the tribe, though of course in the form of healings, predictions, etc.

Yet what we have in the case of Santa Claus is someone coming down through a chimney to deposit gifts secretly, then (naturally) leaving the same way (how else?). He doesn't fly up to heaven entwined in smoke, nor does he fly up to heaven at all. He flies through the sky, which is not the same thing at all.

Interestingly enough, the areas of Europe most influenced by shamanism (namely, Ukraine and Russia) are also the ones in which the St Nicholas story bears the LEAST traces of shamanism.

The chimney thing is easibly traceable to one of the most popular stories about St Nicholas, that of the three dowries he secretly provided for the daughters of an impoverished nobleman who planned on selling them to a brothel. In popular accounts Nicholas threw gold through a window, or chimney.

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Ah yes, not backing up wild claims truly is a wonderful thing about life. I fear you may have misinterpreted what I was saying.

True, I may have done, but neither of us need get our socks in a twist, eh? As to "Shades of Bert", well, that's a bit of an unkind comparison perhaps, being that you don't know me (though I have no idea as to whether you know Bert personally). But lumping people together as though hinting that one is at fault, so another must be too, is, umm... well, not helpful I'd say.

Yes, yes, I know what we have in the case of Santa. All I was suggesting is that Santa is the last part of the old tribal belief in the shaman's journey, ie., returning with gifts. Maybe we should go right to the source here, and email Santa. ;)

And I wish he'd have come to my house and thrown gold down the chimney, darn it! :)

Edited by IAmTheWork
Wording.
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It is all word of mouth. The closest thing we have for proof of Christ's mortal life would be some of Paul's epistles, written about 20 years after Jesus' death.

While mainstream Christians have something to gain from strong evidence of a historical Jesus, Mormons tend to downplay it because (presumably) they want to show everyone else sitting on the same branch of faith they are. You wouldn't expect the atheists' agenda to support either side, yet even Richard Dawkins accepts that there probably was a historical Jesus Christ.

[And before you tell me that "Dorkins" is a fool, let me point out this is quite the opposite kind of "foolishness" than you'd normally expect from an avowed atheist.]

Edited by Jamie123
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Most scholars accept the idea of a historical Jesus. That said, many of them believe he was only a rabbi, and not the Messiah. His miracles and resurrection are very hard to prove, since there is no evidence from that specific timeframe.

LDS scholars believe in holding to strong evidence for both the Bible and Book of Mormon, because to do less would affect how other scholars view the work and the LDS scholars involved. They may not agree with the findings, but they can at least respect the evidence.

As it is, we have witnesses of the resurrected Christ in the Book of Mormon AND modern prophets. It hasn't gone through centuries of editing by various scholars and scribes, plausibly affecting the final product, as we have with the Bible. For example, the Johannine Comma shows intentional interpolation into the scripture by later scribes.

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Hmmm....if you accept that "divine revelation" (whatever that actually means) trumps any other kind of evidence, why bother looking any further? Are the FARMS scholars just wasting their time?

There's a difference between "proof" and "truth." I assume the guys at FARMS are scholars looking for truth. Evidence can confirm and support divine revelation. The minute is supplants it, the power of faith disappears. In Alma 32 we read:

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth

it.

There is power in faith that saves, whereas evidence has no saving power. The Lord seeks to save his children by testing their faith, not by having them have all the answers.

Although there are some instances of archaeological discoveries, ancient Native American traditions, like "the Pahana" among the Hopi Indians, and various anthropological items of interest, faith is what delivers the sure testimony of the Holy Spirit.

If you don't know by the Holy Ghost, you don't really know at all.

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Evidence can confirm and support divine revelation. The minute is supplants it, the power of faith disappears.

There may be some truth in this, though I can't honestly say I understand it. Like when Jesus said to Doubting Thomas "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

LOL - A quote from Douglas Adams also springs to mind:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.

P.S. I always cringe at the name of your website: "Prevention of Anti-Mormonism" sounds a little too much like "Prevention of Free-Speech". Perhaps "Exposing the Flaws in Anti-Mormonism" would be better, though it doesn't form such a nice acronym.

Edited by Jamie123
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  • 8 months later...

The Dead Sea Scrolls are among the best-known and most essential old documents discovered in years. The ancient files are mainly stored in museums in the Middle East. The biggest collection of Dead Sea Scrolls has been housed in the Israel Museum. The museum has experienced criticism about the restricted access they supply to the files. Now, worldwide admittance to the files is being provided on the internet. The Israel Museum and Google have partnered to offer the access to these files. Digitized Dead Sea Scrolls providing worldwide access. This kind of documents must be kept in a safe place because it's one of the precious thing to be kept. Aside form the fact that it is part of the history it's sacred.

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Hmmm....if you accept that "divine revelation" (whatever that actually means) trumps any other kind of evidence, why bother looking any further? Are the FARMS scholars just wasting their time?

Cause its nice to carry around a big stick in addition to speaking softly :P
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