On returning to church


IAmTheWork
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Some advice from active members would be useful regarding what a retuning non-member (ex'd years ago) would be asked or able to participate in. For example, you wouldn't be asked to give talks, and certainly not offered a calling until baptised, obeying all the rules, etc..? All advice most welcome.

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I read a story about a gay man who served a mission and was fully active, but was frustrated with being gay and not being able to express it. He fell in love with another man, and got into a relationship with him, told his Bishop, and was excommunicated. He still reports that he attends Church though, and obeys all the commandments, even though he is excommunicated and still in the same-sex relationship. His partner isn't a member and has no desire, I understand.

He said that as an excommunicated member, he sings in Church, and I've seen exed members participate in service projects, attend meetings, and other service-oriented activities. My understanding is the excommunicated members don't take the sacrament, speak or hold callings, however. I think there is a lot an excommunicated members can do to improve the lives of the people in their Ward through pure service. Sometimes you just need a doer who can take care of things that need to be done, and people who are willing to do that are worth their weight in gold to help auxilliaries and quorums do their work.

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My advice would be to go back to church, and as you're swarmed by the usual LDS welcome-brigade, make sure you mention you'd like to meet with the Bishop. Then tell the bishop what you're telling us. I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear that an excommunicated member is willing to work on completing the repentence process, and can give you much better advice than we can on how to go about doing it.

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One thing I heard that I always liked that ex-communication should be considered part of the repentance process and the fact that one has been exed should be no deterrent for one who wants to participate in church, perhaps even one day return to full fellowship.

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Many thanks for the responses folks. As far as being excommunicated, and having to repent, of course I have probably quite different views to active church members as I've been away for almost twenty years. No close contact with members or missionaries, either.

I was ex'd a couple of years after getting divorced, because I moved in with my new partner. I met someone and we got a house together, intending to marry (which we did after about six months). Somehow the church knew where I'd moved to. Secret street cameras and covert operations by missionaries dressed in combat gear to hide in gardens..? :) Anyway, I got a knock on the door from a very embarrassed old quorum friend, who said he didn't know why the bishop had asked him to deliver a sealed letter, etc. (Mormon's are rubbish at lying!)

So, I was ex'd, but not too concerned about it. I don't know what happened with my ex-wife, but she moved a few hundred miles away to be away from me and the church (yes, it's just possible in the UK). Since leaving church in the throes of divorce, everyone - and I mean everyone - cut us off cold. All old friends we'd known for years, people who said we had such close bonds; gone without so much as a sigh.

In case any non-members reading this think, "Aha! I knew Mormons were like that!" well, no you don't. I've heard other tales of people being looked after, friendships carrying on for years, and even huge obstacles overcome with the help of members. I think in our case, as with others, they were all embarrassed to 'chose sides' and so dumped both of us, or as happens with some members (and indeed whole wards) they band together so they feel safe from 'infection' by ex'd members.

Anyway, the other point is repentance, and by all means chuck in your own feelings and perspectives on this - I'd love to have them. To me, repentance is not a matter of grovelling and obeying rules, sack-cloth and ashes and all that, but simply making restitution where you can (emotionally in the main), and making the decision to change your behaviour because it didn't work out well. Personally, I don't feel that I offended the lord by having a few relationships over twenty years which were not in marriage, mainly because I don't think any of us can offend or hurt him or HF/HM. By all means chuck in a couple of scriptures saying otherwise if you want, but that's just my feeling. The lord gives us guidelines to follow for our own good, and when we don't, we reap the consequences of our actions.

I think what I'm doing here is trying to clarify the reasons why I've considered going back to church, and looking at whether I'm being more selfish than serving, or more serving in the way of a doormat, as so many do (and I once did) in church.

Edited by IAmTheWork
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Personally, I don't feel that I offended the lord by having a few relationships over twenty years which were not in marriage, mainly because I don't think any of us can offend or hurt him or HF/HM. By all means chuck in a couple of scriptures saying otherwise if you want, but that's just my feeling. The lord gives us guidelines to follow for our own good, and when we don't, we reap the consequences of our actions.

One of those "guidelines" or commandments is that we shouldn't commit adultery or fornication. Whether we "offend" Him or not can be arguable for some, however the main issue is that we broke one of His rules and a consequence (as you well said) follows. When a child disobeys his parents, is the parent happy? I don't think so.

Possibly the number one step on the repentance process is to feel "Godly Sorrow" and recognize that we have committed a sin against God's commandments. It's not an easy thing but something we ALL must go through, because we are all sinners.

I wish you all the best in whatever decision you take! :)

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Why do you want to return to Church? What do you hope to accomplish in doing so?

As an X'd member of the church, I'm trying not to get offended nor hot under the collar in the wording of this question. It's tone presupposes that there a person must have a good, quantifiable reason to return into the fold. It shows an animosity for someone who want's to return. You may as well be saying "You are a bad person who doesn't deserve this church because of your actions so think again about coming back." I'd ask that you please rephrase or clarify the question.

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When a child disobeys his parents, is the parent happy? I don't think so.

I can see your point, but in this case we're talking about super-intelligent, incredibly powerful beings who have what I can only call 'purified versions of human emotions'. In my experience, they suffer no consequences of our mistakes or pain, as human parents would. Heck, if they did, they'd be constantly unhappy due to the actions of their children - no way to spend eternity!

Why do you want to return to Church? What do you hope to accomplish in doing so?

A very good question, and one I'm trying (slowly and with due consideration) to answer for myself. I'd say perhaps two general things;

a) To fulfil my inner wish to be of service and commune with others who have similar moral outlooks to myself, and...

b) To gain something from such community too, eg., decent friends and companionship, a little more structure to life, and a sense of belonging.

As is no doubt plain, I'm weighing things up to see how I feel within myself before 'jumping in', as I know from experience that attending church brings various pressures to conform, and to 'progress' in various ways. Church structures which do this can be seen as either safety from the world, or in the case of many non-members, routine to keep the member busy and brainwashed. We take our pick. :)

I'm trying not to get offended nor hot under the collar in the wording of this question. It's tone presupposes that there a person must have a good, quantifiable reason to return into the fold. It shows an animosity for someone who want's to return. You may as well be saying "You are a bad person who doesn't deserve this church because of your actions so think again about coming back." I'd ask that you please rephrase or clarify the question.

That's a really interesting response slamjet, though not how I saw the question at all. I think one of the most awkward things about forums and email, etc., is that so much is lost between mind and mouth, and more lost between ears and another mind. The problems of being human, eh?!

Edited by IAmTheWork
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As an X'd member of the church, I'm trying not to get offended nor hot under the collar in the wording of this question. It's tone presupposes that there a person must have a good, quantifiable reason to return into the fold. It shows an animosity for someone who want's to return. You may as well be saying "You are a bad person who doesn't deserve this church because of your actions so think again about coming back." I'd ask that you please rephrase or clarify the question.

Originally Posted by a-train

Why do you want to return to Church? What do you hope to accomplish in doing so?

Yet I think it's a legitimate thought behind the question. I am not a huge fan of the total New Order Mormon thing and it bugs me when people want to fully participate in the church but still keep all their spiritual options open. I believe most of spirituality is personal, but I hate the idea of "picking and choosing" what you want.

So my version of this same question is: Are you going back just for a bit of spirituality? Trying to find out how you believe and feel about the church? Looking for renewed full fellowship? For social reasons only?

And I ask this in a most loving way, I promise you, just out of complete curiosity.

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Yet I think it's a legitimate thought behind the question. I am not a huge fan of the total New Order Mormon thing and it bugs me when people want to fully participate in the church but still keep all their spiritual options open. I believe most of spirituality is personal, but I hate the idea of "picking and choosing" what you want.

I've put some thought into this -- and I think there are certain members and even people who are attempting to reach out to less-active members -- who think being active in Church on your own terms is better than not being active at all. At least then, you are connected to the influence, warmed by people with good values, and less likely to fall completely away.

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Possibly the number one step on the repentance process is to feel "Godly Sorrow" and recognize that we have committed a sin against God's commandments. It's not an easy thing but something we ALL must go through, because we are all sinners.

This is the kind of point I find very interesting, as we can see things in so many different ways. It's also obvious that people often struggle to know whether they're feeling selfishly absorbed in their pain, or 'godly sorrow', or if in fact, there is a quantifiable difference.

For myself, I've grown to see 'commandments' in the same way that many see the Old and New Testaments. One tends to be fire and brimstone, and the other tends to be more gentle and healing. As an attempt at an example, I once watched one of my young toddlers burn his hand and let him do it. Before your hand hits your mouth in surprise, let me add that he was old enough to understand perfectly well what I was telling him, and the electric heater he was about to touch had a guard, and had not been switched on for long enough to be dangerous.

He did the 'kiddie dare' thing as soon as I told him to come away from the heater; he stood his ground and reached out to touch it while staring me down as a challenge. I again told him to come away, and said it would hurt if he touched it, but he continued to challenge me. After a few tries to make him come away from it, I left it to him and said, "Ok, you touch it if you want, but it WILL hurt!" He touched the guard, and of course threw a screaming tantrum, giving me dirty looks in the process as though it was my fault. My wife, naturally, threw a fit at me, but our son was quite unharmed.

My point? Well, I could have gone all 'Old Testament' and shouted loudly that he would surely burn, etc., and his fear of father yelling would have driven him away from the fire. I could also have considered that my child had broken MY commandments, 1) to not touch fires, and 2) to obey father at all times. But I left it up to him, and he learned a simple lesson.

I know there are no perfect analogies, but it occurs to me that if I as an ordinary human father have no wish to push my ego onto my children and have them follow like robots, then how much more free of such power trips are heavenly beings? So, I'm sure that when we learn lessons our spiritual parents don't think, "Aha, you need to feel suffering for that!" More like, and with a loving smile, "Ah, you understand a little more, yes?"

So is 'committing a sin' something which entitles us to punishment alone, or learning alone, or both..? And what does that make of 'repentance'..?

I am not a huge fan of the total New Order Mormon thing and it bugs me when people want to fully participate in the church but still keep all their spiritual options open. I believe most of spirituality is personal, but I hate the idea of "picking and choosing" what you want. So my version of this same question is: Are you going back just for a bit of spirituality? Trying to find out how you believe and feel about the church? Looking for renewed full fellowship? For social reasons only?

I've never heard of the 'New Order Mormon' thing. Is that a phrase of your own, or one currently used by church members?

In answer to your other questions, I'd say that;

~ I feel comfortable with my spirituality and very tangible spiritual experiences.

~ I think my feelings about the church are not hugely relevant, as I'd have to define how I feel about members in general, local members (who I haven't met), the church as an organisation in the world, the church as a spiritual organisation, etc. In many cases members have internal conflicts regarding these different aspects, and often suffer somewhat through such.

~ I wouldn't say that I'm looking for renewed 'full fellowship' in terms of ordinances, callings, etc.

~ I certainly don't want to attend any church for purely social reasons, as I can socialise anywhere.

I think what I said earlier is the best I can put it at present;

a) To fulfil my inner wish to be of service and commune with others who have similar moral outlooks to myself, and...

b) To gain something from such community too, eg., decent friends and companionship, a little more structure to life, and a sense of belonging.

I obviously don't have any concrete answers, which is why I'm taking my time, considering options, and feeling grateful for the thoughts you're all offering.

I think there are certain members and even people who are attempting to reach out to less-active members -- who think being active in Church on your own terms is better than not being active at all.

'On your own terms'. I guess this is the clincher for many, if not all of us in some respect.

Also, I do think that geographical location matters with regard to 'falling away'. Living in somewhere like the UK, where your branch or ward members are likely to be scattered amongst the general population is very different to living in an area of Utah where almost everyone is a member.

In the former case, leaving church means no real change in life around you, whereas in the latter, leaving church can often lead to huge changes in your life, including how the neighbourhood treats you, whether you're considered for employment, and so on. As I've said elsewhere, I don't for a minute think that such changes are always wholly negative, but they can be to some degree, and are completely in some cases, with families having to move to another state to feel accepted as 'normal' and ok.

That brings up questions about Mormon societal culture as well as its role as a church, and without getting into all that, it seems to me that its impact is very different in predominantly Mormon towns and cities. Here in the UK, as elsewhere, you can leave the church behind very easily (at least once you're over the initial pain of feeling abandoned, as many do).

Edited by IAmTheWork
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He touched the guard, and of course threw a screaming tantrum, giving me dirty looks in the process as though it was my fault.

Heh. Our kids get in trouble for throwing fits and blaming others for stuff they were responsible for. Give your wife a little time - there's good odds she'll find the kid's behavior getting old REALLY fast, and might come to see it your way. Appropriate consequences rock. Handing kids their agency, and being there to hug them with they need it, rocks. The trick is to know which is the truly harmful stuff to protect them from, and which is the unpleasant or painful lesson they can sit there and learn over and over again until some sense sinks into their skulls.

And yes, I see our Heavenly Father approaching His children with a similar mindset.

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You know, if I never kept my spirituality open when I was Catholic, I wouldn't be LDS now.

As an LDS, I still do the same- keep my spirituality open so that I may be cognizant of God's personal revelations.

Because, even though we know in the LDS faith that this Church is true and that it is the last dispensation, we still don't know what the future holds. The Catholic church said the exact same things too - that the Catholic Church is the only true church on earth...

P.S. I probably should qualify that...

What I'm trying to say is that... there is power in personal revelation when you seek diligently for guidance in your life from the Holy Ghost and sincerely submit yourself to God so that "Thy Will Be Done" is your intent and not "What I'm comfortable with".

Edited by anatess
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Give your wife a little time ...

Oh I did; it's around twenty years since we divorced and she moved a long way away. My kids are all adults now, and the one from the fire testing incident went on to blow things up for a living! But he's very respectful to others in the area where things need blowing up. :)

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I've put some thought into this -- and I think there are certain members and even people who are attempting to reach out to less-active members -- who think being active in Church on your own terms is better than not being active at all. At least then, you are connected to the influence, warmed by people with good values, and less likely to fall completely away.

And this is a good point. Yet at the same time there are so many other ways to be around good influences. What drives me nuts is when it gets hypocritical, when people full-out lie about their beliefs just so the other Mormons think they're doing a good job. I appreciate and better understand the ones who are honest about what they believe. Why let people lie their way through a temple recommend interview just so everyone feels better about what they're doing?

I've never heard of the 'New Order Mormon' thing. Is that a phrase of your own, or one currently used by church members?

It's a legitimate term used by church members.

In answer to your other questions, I'd say that;

~ I feel comfortable with my spirituality and very tangible spiritual experiences.

~ I think my feelings about the church are not hugely relevant, as I'd have to define how I feel about members in general, local members (who I haven't met), the church as an organisation in the world, the church as a spiritual organisation, etc. In many cases members have internal conflicts regarding these different aspects, and often suffer somewhat through such.

~ I wouldn't say that I'm looking for renewed 'full fellowship' in terms of ordinances, callings, etc.

~ I certainly don't want to attend any church for purely social reasons, as I can socialise anywhere.

I think what I said earlier is the best I can put it at present;

a) To fulfil my inner wish to be of service and commune with others who have similar moral outlooks to myself, and...

b) To gain something from such community too, eg., decent friends and companionship, a little more structure to life, and a sense of belonging.

I obviously don't have any concrete answers, which is why I'm taking my time, considering options, and feeling grateful for the thoughts you're all offering.

I see. Thanks for sharing. :animatedthumbsup: I see those as legitimate reasons. Though again, I do have issues with people who aren't honest about what they're doing in the church.

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What drives me nuts is when it gets hypocritical, when people full-out lie about their beliefs just so the other Mormons think they're doing a good job.

I would think this happens more within concentrated Mormon communities, perhaps? Or at least, to a greater degree in such communities.

As to New Order Mormons, my question would have been better put as; what does the phrase actually mean?

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I would think this happens more within concentrated Mormon communities, perhaps? Or at least, to a greater degree in such communities.

Or is more noticed. :D Really, I just think it's stupid to say you believe one thing when you don't. I am fine with whoever attends church just as long as they're honest about their beliefs and reasons. My grandma recently went through the temple at the age of 82 after attending church for forty years simply for social reasons. We were all okay with it because she didn't like about it.

As to New Order Mormons, my question would have been better put as; what does the phrase actually mean?

According to those who call themself as such, it is Mormons who believe some to very little of church doctrines but stay in the Church for various reasons such as belief in some doctrines, family, social, opportunities to serve, etc. I'm fine with those who admit it, but not with those who lie about it.

There's a recent thread about it...

http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/36014-new-order-mormons.html

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In the last Sunday and Testimony meeting, two members got up and they mentioned something about a documentary they watched that it made them to think twice about coming back to Church (they didn't share details so whatever they watched is everyone's guess). However, what it strike me is that they said that despite hearing those things that they didn't know about they decided to stay. So when you expect the next sentence to be that they will stay because the Church is true or have a testimony of the Gospel or a testimony of Jesus Christ, they said instead that their friends and family are here and that's why they are staying. I wonder at times how many members we have that go to Church or stay in Church only for social reasons.

Edited by Suzie
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And this is a good point. Yet at the same time there are so many other ways to be around good influences. What drives me nuts is when it gets hypocritical, when people full-out lie about their beliefs just so the other Mormons think they're doing a good job. I appreciate and better understand the ones who are honest about what they believe. Why let people lie their way through a temple recommend interview just so everyone feels better about what they're doing?

.

I'd never suggest anyone lies in their temple recommend interview. I'm saying that many of us would rather have these people around choosing not to go to the temple, but being involved and subject to influence -- even if they aren't fully living commandments.

Also, the LDS culture actually discourages being open about non-traditional beliefs. Try piping up with some believe in Gospel Doctrine that goes against current LDS culture or thought, and see what happens. Also, we are discouraged from exploring doubtful or controversial areas of our faith at Church. So, these people aren't culturally "allowed" to share their doubts and contrarion attitudes at Church, or else they face social consequences.

Also problematic is the plight you can find yourself in if you start sharing doubts about certain things with your leaders. I know of a few people who expressed doubts to their Bishop about core doctrines such as JS, prophets, the BoM, etcetera;. This can lead to losing opportunities which may well have strengthened faith if they weren't withdrawn.

In my view, we are all apostate in some way -- we all have areas of belief that are shaky, and that very few people have "perfect knowledge" about core doctrines. For me, in TR interviews, I answer Yes to the questions of belief because to me, I accept they may well be true, and am willing to proceed on the assumption they are. But I don't KNOW for sure on all of the key questions.

I don't consider this hypocritical either. I think it's better for my family and myself to be TR-holding, active, and mainstream than being this maverick spreading doubt in our meetings.

But I agree no one should lie about living certain commandments, definitely not.

Edited by mormonmusic
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Maybe something will have to change in church when people bring up things that disagree with currant thought. However, as was discussed on another thread, are fringe doctrine topics really things that should be discussed in church, or should they be discussed at other times. Are we really encouraging people to base their entire testimonies on things that really aren't doctrine? WHat I'm getting from your words is that you're saying we should waste church worship time discussing random doctrinal/historical events that have nothing to do with salvation just so a few people can feel better about it? There are so many other ways to fellowship than to attempt to make everything peachy keen for members. If they're having doubts on something, there isn't much we can do to affect their faith either way. If they have doubts on something or flat-out don't believe something, we should appeal to what they are willing to contribute to the church, not fix everything for them.

And yes, I don't think any person has ever believed every single thing that has come out of a GA's mouth. We don't know for sure on anything. If there are doubts and questions, there are so many ways of finding possible answers and explanations rather than being the jerk in Gospel Doctrine class. And yes, I've seen them before.

You go to church to worship because you have faith, not to get faith. If you don't have faith and are attending for other reasons, please do so and participate where you can for I truly encourage that. But don't pretend you have faith and don't expect others to fix it for you in class.

But to be dishonest just so your family and friends will like you? Do family members really prefer someone to be pretending to be a Mormon or whatever other faith just to make the family happy? I would prefer someone who is honest with me, someone who will say "This is what I do believe, this is what I don't."

For me, in TR interviews, I answer Yes to the questions of belief because to me, I accept they may well be true, and am willing to proceed on the assumption they are. But I don't KNOW for sure on all of the key questions.

And that sounds like a legitimate response. But if you really and truly did not believe one of the questions, would you still say yes? Would you encourage others to do the same and be dishonest with themselves and everyone around them just to make someone happy? When you say you'd rather be good than be the maverick, are you just keeping quiet while you are thinking nasty thoughts in your head about everything being said?

I'm also not talking about living certain earthly commandments. I'm talking about beliefs. If you don't believe in what the temple does, then it's a lie just to go to the TR interview.

I've heard of too many New Order Mormons happily admitting they lied their way through TR interviews just so they could see a child get married even though they didn't believe a single thing about the Church. To them, they think it's okay because they're in the church for family reasons.

My other question is what is so wrong with the family that difference of religion threatens to tear the family apart? How is following a religion you don't believe solving that?

Edited by Backroads
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Backroads -- there are times stuff comes up in lessons and I just bite my tongue. Usually about cultural norms that have no basis in doctrine. There IS one belief I have that is definitely not mainstream, and on that one, I just bite my tongue as well.

I don't have a problem with that at all. In all other contexts in my life, I'm never completely candid about my feelings and beliefs -- that is part of being discrete and respecting the norms of whatever organization you're interfacing with. I'm not even entirely open with my wife about all things, because I know certain beliefs I have about her behavior or habits would only lead to conflict, hurt, unhappiness, etcetera. In my work they come out with policies all the time that I think are wrong, but I say nothing. I don't see why it's any different at Church.

Again, I agree we shouldn't lie in recommend interviews just to get through ordinance attendance in the temple, or perform the ordinances. But I think learning to hold your tongue is part of being a gentleman/gentlewoman.

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