Is the final judgment permanent?

[Backroads]

Awesome link, Pam, thank-yee kindly for being a handy moderator.

Spirit prison is a common Mormon term for a part of the spirit world, where the spirits of mankind wait to reunite with their their physical bodies in the Resurrection. Mormons use the term in two distinct ways, which are discussed below. In either case, spirit prison refers to those who have not received the blessings of spirit paradise.

Prison as a Place of Learning, Preparation, and Waiting... Prison as Hell

So the wording of this article suggests these are the same single place. But I wonder, in speculation only, if the perception would be different between those who didn't have the opportunity and those who refused the opportunity.

[Just_A_Guy]

How would you handle this, then, if this came up in Gospel Doctrine or Essentials class? And, throw in the fact that the person making the claim is coming out of less-activity.

Whether teaching Gospel Doctrine or Primary, whenever someone posits some kind of bizarre speculation I usually just say something like

"Well, the Church hasn't been authorized to teach one position or the other. That doesn't mean you can't go and get your own revelation on the subject; it just means we won't teach it as doctrine."

[tubaloth]

I didn't see the scripture. Lets have McConkie answer the question.

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16*17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.

The Seven Deadly Heresies - Bruce R. McConkie

Yes the Final Judgment is Final. If it wasn't Final God would not be God.

[rameumptom]

I don't take much stock in Elder McConkie's deadly heresies talk. It is ancient discussion, and makes claims that are sometimes contrary to the official church stance. For example, evolution is one of his heresies, yet the Church does not make that claim. This is his personal interpretation of issues.

He also has been rather harsh in his depiction of repentance in the Spirit World. My reading of scripture, however, shows that Christ seeks to maximize the amount of blessings each of us gets.

There is no official doctrine either way on progression between kingdoms, etc. So, I don't teach it because I don't want to give anyone a reason to think they can procrastinate the day of their repentance. This would especially be bad if later they found out that there is no progression between kingdoms and so they were cheated out of exaltation.

[pam]

Exactly Ram. My thought is...Why take the chance?

[Saldrin]

Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions?

You would have to ask the Boss on that one...

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have a question though -- why this assumption that it has to be a test where we make decisions without complete information? And that we have to do so in a mortal state? Why can't we make the decision to change our character at any point in our existence, provided we eventually get to the point we have the character God is looking for? Would he not want us to progress, to change, and get better eventually, and get the rewards even if we did so after the "final" judgment? And doesn't this seem fair given the fact that so many of our choices are uninformed (without being able to see or clearly experience our eternal kingdoms)?

By the way, I'm not disagreeing in a violent way, or challenging you in an adversarial way -- these are just questions that cross my mind as we explore this issue.

To answer this question (which I have had myself from time to time) one has to really consider the value of faith. Why is faith so important and why is it our first principle?

Obviously, the final judgment has to take into consideration choices that are faith based. What is the opposite of faith or what destroys faith is complete knowledge. Our test here is a test of devotion and trust, not a test of logical application of information. I'm sure we already had those kind of tests before we came here. That essentially was what the battle in heaven was. We had all the information about the different pathways and we all agreed after getting that information that we wanted to go onto the next step which is a test of devotion. By all of us being here we already agreed that God's plan is the right one and that we needed a Savior. All of us have already agreed that we believe Jesus is our Savior when we had full disclosure of all the facts. Now we have to continue to agree with that plan based on faith, trust and the heart.

I think God will use both pre-mortal information, based on our valiant or non-valiant choices prior to coming here and our faith based choices to decide what Kingdom we go to. The reason I say that is because we know those that are born with conditions such as Down's syndrome will go onto the Celestial Kingdom without a test of faith.

So, this thing about choosing with full disclosure of the information is something we all have already done, in my mind. Now, we are being tested for our spiritual connection and discernment.

I don't know if I fully understand all the reasons why God only wants individuals in the Celestial Kingdom that are obedient because of their faith. I think one of the reasons is that that is a faster way of learning. When we learn from any teacher there is some amount of faith that goes into that. You have to believe what the teacher is is saying to you. For example, if each generation of humans had to start all over again in their learning and never trusted anything their elders told them we would all be cavemen still. Trust and faith allows us to learn line upon line without having to learn everything for ourselves. Likewise, I don't have to murder someone to know that murder is bad. Faith is required to know all without having to experience all. Those that don't allow faith to be part of the way they learn will never know all.

[Backroads]

So is it possible that someone could go to Spirit Prison and still wind up in the Celestial Kingdom?

[pam]

yes

[Nathan6329]

I think by the final judgment you will have had plenty of time in your mortal and post-mortal life to know where you stand and have repented for your sins and made things right.

If you haven't earned the Celestial Kingdom by your final judgment it is safe to say you probably never will.

[Rosabella]

Here are some quotes I found on this topic:

(The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50)

No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation by accepting the gospel in the spirit world after spurning, declining, or refusing to accept it in this life. It is true that there may be a second chance to hear and accept the gospel, but those who have thus procrastinated their acceptance of the saving truths will not gain salvation in the celestial kingdom of God.

Salvation for the dead is the system by means of which those who "die without a knowledge of the gospel" (D. & C. 128:5) may gain such knowledge in the spirit world and then, following the vicarious performance of the necessary ordinances, become heirs of salvation on the same basis as though the gospel truths had been obeyed in mortality. Salvation for the dead is limited expressly to those who do not have opportunity in this life to accept the gospel but who would have taken the opportunity had it come to them.

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel," the Lord said to the Prophet, "who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts." (Teachings, p. 107.)

This is the only revealed principle by means of which the laws pertaining to salvation for the dead can be made effective in the lives of any persons. There is no promise in any revelation that those who have a fair and just opportunity in this life to accept the gospel, and who do not do it, will have another chance in the spirit world to gain salvation. On the contrary, there is the express stipulation that men cannot be saved without accepting the gospel in this life, if they are given opportunity to accept it.

"Now is the time and the day of your salvation," Amulek said. "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors .... For after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." (Alma 34:31-35; 2 Ne. 9:27; 3 Ne. 28:34; Luke 9:62.)

An application of this law is seen in the words of the resurrected Christ to the Nephites. "Therefore come unto me and be ye saved," he said in repeating with some variations the Sermon on the Mount he had previously given the Jews, "for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (3 Ne. 12:20.) Thus salvation was forever denied those Nephites unless they gained it by virtue of their obedience during mortality. On the same basis, there is no such thing as salvation for the dead for the Latter-day Saints who have been taught the truths of salvation and had a fair and just opportunity to live them.

(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 181-196.)

Thus the false and heretical doctrine that people who fail to live the law in this life (having had an opportunity so to do) will have a further chance of salvation in the life to come is a soul-destroying doctrine, a doctrine that lulls its adherents into carnal security and thereby denies them a hope of eternal salvation. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 181-196.)

[pam]

Thank you Rosabella..The quote by Bruce R. McConkie is what I was searching for yesterday. I had read it but couldn't find it again.

[Rosabella]

You are very welcome.

That is interesting you were looking for this quote. I have not been on this site or posted in a long time but felt like should look at this site just now and then saw this thread and felt I should post these quotes.

Prompting? :)

[pam]

Very possibly. Honestly, I was mentioning in a private message to someone that I was diligently looking for this quote and here you post it. Again thank you very much.

[Backroads]

Seems like Rosabella answered it.

However, I still have some questions...

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel," the Lord said to the Prophet, "who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts." (Teachings, p. 107.)

Yet earlier we were discussing that all those who die without knowledge of the gospel will go to spirit prison in order to learn the gospel, while this seems to suggest those who would have accepted automatically receive Celestial Glory.

So do these individuals "skip" spirit prison? Or is the Celestial Kingdom simply the end result for these people as known by God and they still go through the learning process of spirit prison?

I also had a nice little epiphany on the nature of spirit prison. The link Pam posted the other day said that Christ did not visit spirit prison, which could almost be bothersome until you realize that we on earth also don't have the benefit of Christ walking around among us.

[Rosabella]

Pam

It is funny how the Lord works sometimes. I am glad I followed the feeling I had today and that it assisted you :)

[pam]

Seems like Rosabella answered it.

However, I still have some questions...

Yet earlier we were discussing that all those who die without knowledge of the gospel will go to spirit prison in order to learn the gospel, while this seems to suggest those who would have accepted automatically receive Celestial Glory.

So do these individuals "skip" spirit prison? Or is the Celestial Kingdom simply the end result for these people as known by God and they still go through the learning process of spirit prison?

I also had a nice little epiphany on the nature of spirit prison. The link Pam posted the other day said that Christ did not visit spirit prison, which could almost be bothersome until you realize that we on earth also don't have the benefit of Christ walking around among us.

Again, my understanding is all those who die without a knowledge of the gospel will go to Spirit Prison. Here they will be taught the gospel. But keep in mind, that in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom one must be baptized. Whether on earth or by proxy. So even those that accept it while in the spirit prison must wait for their work to be done. Again, why temple work is so important here on earth.

[pam]

also had a nice little epiphany on the nature of spirit prison. The link Pam posted the other day said that Christ did not visit spirit prison, which could almost be bothersome until you realize that we on earth also don't have the benefit of Christ walking around among us.

Ahhh but we can have the benefit of being in His presence if we live right.

[Rosabella]

Another quote. This is right off of LDS.org About what Hell is.

Hell

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30-35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81-85).

Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36-38; 76:28-33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31-33, 36-37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).

Edited January 23, 2011 by Rosabella

[slamjet]

At the risk of inviting more meaningless drivel, I have a question:

I understand that at the moment of Christs resurrection that the bridge was made across the chasm from paradise to spirit prison. However, I've thought of this as being literal (since that's the way my poor little mind works). However, the more I learn the Gospel, the more I wonder. Is spirit prison a mindset, a physical separation or both? And is there anything other than conjecture to back up what it really is?

[pam]

Can I get a clarification? What do you mean by physical separation?

As far as physical separation..there is a separation between spirit paradise and spirit prison. God and Jesus Christ will not visit those in spirit prison. So there is that separation.

[Rosabella]

At the risk of inviting more meaningless drivel, I have a question:

I understand that at the moment of Christs resurrection that the bridge was made across the chasm from paradise to spirit prison. However, I've thought of this as being literal (since that's the way my poor little mind works). However, the more I learn the Gospel, the more I wonder. Is spirit prison a mindset, a physical separation or both? And is there anything other than conjecture to back up what it really is?

Maybe this quote will help clarify.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Search When you click the Encyclopedia of Mormonism Explanation: Spirit Prison Spirit Prison - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism It seems to be an approved statement because LDS.org links to it. This is what it says:

Author: Parsons, Robert J.

In Latter-day Saint doctrine the "spirit prison" is both a condition and a place within the postearthly spirit world. One "imprisons" himself or herself through unbelief or through willful disobedience of God. In such circumstances, one's opportunities in the afterlife will be limited. Those who willfully rebel against the light and truth of the gospel and do not repent remain in this condition of imprisonment and suffer spiritual death, which is a condition of hell (Alma 12:16-18; D&C 76:36-37). Furthermore, since a fulness of joy is not possible without the resurrected body, the waiting in the spirit world for the resurrection is a type of imprisonment (D&C 45:17;93:33-34;138:16, 17, 50). However, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ all have a promise of resurrection, and thus of eventual release from this type of spirit prison, although the unrepentant will still be imprisoned by their unbelief (see Damnation).

Another more far-reaching definition of "spirit prison" is hell. In this sense, spirit prison is a temporary abode in the spirit world of those who either were untaught and unrighteous, or were disobedient to the gospel while in mortal life (cf. Alma 40:11-14; D&C 138:32).

As part of his redemptive mission, Jesus Christ visited the spirit world during the interlude between his own death and resurrection, and "from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness"-in other words, to the spirits in prison (D&C 138:30; cf. 1 Pet. 3:18-20;4:6). Thus, the gulf between paradise and hell that is spoken of in Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) was bridged by the Savior's ministry in the spirit world. This bridging allows interaction among the righteous and wicked spirits to the extent that the faithful present the gospel to "those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" (D&C 138:32). Latter-day Saints believe that preaching the gospel in the spirit world continues today and will continue until every soul who wishes to do so and repents properly will be released from such imprisonment.

Repentance of imprisoned spirits opens the doors of the prison, enabling them to loose themselves from the spiritual darkness of unbelief, ignorance, and sin. As they accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and cast off their sins, the repentant are able to break the chains of hell and dwell with the righteous in paradise. [see also Salvation of the Dead.]

Bibliography

Pratt, Orson. "Deity; The Holy Priesthood." In Masterful Discourses and Writings of Orson Pratt, N. B. Lundwall, comp., pp. 260-68. Salt Lake City, 1946.

ROBERT J. PARSONS

[slamjet]

Interesting, Thanks.

[pam]

This thread has been very informative. I appreciate all those who are or have taken part in it.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

It just seems a little strange to me that this life is the ONLY time we have for spiritual advancement. What of those who will be given opportunities after this life? Is it possible that could extend into the kingdoms?

And yes, this is just speculation.

As far as my understanding of the scriptures, we only have till judgement day to prepare for eternity, all the scriptures seem to be very clear on this. After resurrection there is no more opportunities to grow beyond what we have chosen to do.

Remember that after judgement the veil is fully removed and we once again obtain a full knowledge of our premortal existence, once we have that full premortal existence knowledge we cannot progress since we can only grow through faith and choice.

The time for faith and choice past at judgement!

I can recall which Apostle it was but in General Conference an Apostle spoke of time on the Earth and in the spirit world (before judgement) as a currency to spend and invest as desire. Once the day of judgement arrives though we have no more currency to spend and if we have not purchased with our time the necessary conditions for exaltation we get no second chance.

Those who failed to do what was required will never inherit any higher glory then they received in judgement.

There is no scripture that I know of that suggests that we can progress post judgement. The very thought of post judgement progression is a offense to the justice of God in my opinion.