The death penalty?

[Traveler]

Here is my 2 cents. When people live in fear of voilent criminals more than criminals live in fear of the law - The law has failled the people.

When citizens arm themselves for protection against violent criminals - the law has failed the citizens.

There are places in the world where violent criminals - in fact criminals in general fear the law so completely they dair not make anything public.

Once when traveling in Japan I asked my translator if I just saw a vending machine that sold beer. They responded yes. I asked if minors could by beer. The answer was no. I asked what kept minors from buying beer from vending machines? The response was - It is against the law.

In the USA we do not respect the law but in Japan you do not break the law because if you do you will be reported. In the USA no one cares - we think that obeying the law or not is no bodies business.

The Traveler

[JohnnyRudick]

Here is my 2 cents. When people live in fear of voilent criminals more than criminals live in fear of the law - The law has failled the people.

When citizens arm themselves for protection against violent criminals - the law has failed the citizens.

There are places in the world where violent criminals - in fact criminals in general fear the law so completely they dair not make anything public.

Once when traveling in Japan I asked my translator if I just saw a vending machine that sold beer. They responded yes. I asked if minors could by beer. The answer was no. I asked what kept minors from buying beer from vending machines? The response was - It is against the law.

In the USA we do not respect the law but in Japan you do not break the law because if you do you will be reported. In the USA no one cares - we think that obeying the law or not is no bodies business.

The Traveler

Great point

[NeuroTypical]

When citizens arm themselves for protection against violent criminals - the law has failed the citizens.

Since we're all giving our two cents...

In any given villiage, town, city, county, state, or nation - any governmental grouping of a few hundred or more people anywhere on planet earth - there will be a small segment of that group, made up of individuals willing to kill you for what you have, or for kicks, or to quiet the voices, or whatever. That small segment varies from place to place by a tenth of a percentage point or two, depending on various factors. But it's always there.

We go to great lengths to convince ourselves this segment isn't there. We talk about how our laws takes care of the bad people, and we usually manage to overlook the fact that the law usually gets involved only after something horrible happens to someone.

Just and good people must conceed the first blow to the violent criminal. But when citizens have the ability to fight back on even terms, it's not a sign the law has failed. It's a sign the laws are just.

LM

Edited February 21, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[JohnnyRudick]

Since we're all giving our two cents...

In any given villiage, town, city, county, state, or nation - any governmental grouping of a few hundred or more people anywhere on planet earth - there will be a small segment of that group, made up of individuals willing to kill you for what you have, or for kicks, or to quiet the voices, or whatever. That small segment varies from place to place by a tenth of a percentage point or two, depending on various factors. But it's always there.

We go to great lengths to convince ourselves this segment isn't there. We talk about how our laws takes care of the bad people, and we usually manage to overlook the fact that the law usually gets involved only after something horrible happens to someone.

Just and good people must conceed the first blow to the violent criminal. But when citizens have the ability to fight back on even terms, it's not a sign the law has failed. It's a sign the laws are just.

LM

[Seminarysnoozer]

I helped a guy get 5-life. I wish he'd repent. I worry greatly he'll get out and come after my family for revenge. His victim is still very much terrified of him getting out. For these reasons, I submitted additional evidence to his parole board to try to keep him behind bars longer than they would have otherwise kept him.

Am I unchristlike in your eyes?

I am not your judge and it is unfair to try to put me in such a position so that you might defend a specific decision. I wouldn't begin to understand all the details of such a thing and this goes against everything that I am saying.

If you want to comment on such matters go ahead. Go ahead and tell us how you make that fit into what Jesus said; "39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

[Seminarysnoozer]

Here is my 2 cents. When people live in fear of voilent criminals more than criminals live in fear of the law - The law has failled the people.

When citizens arm themselves for protection against violent criminals - the law has failed the citizens.

There are places in the world where violent criminals - in fact criminals in general fear the law so completely they dair not make anything public.

Once when traveling in Japan I asked my translator if I just saw a vending machine that sold beer. They responded yes. I asked if minors could by beer. The answer was no. I asked what kept minors from buying beer from vending machines? The response was - It is against the law.

In the USA we do not respect the law but in Japan you do not break the law because if you do you will be reported. In the USA no one cares - we think that obeying the law or not is no bodies business.

The Traveler

Here is the real question though, when it comes to respecting the law, when the two clash as is it seems to be from this discussion, is it better to respect God's law or the law of the land?

Is it better to give importance to the guidelines Christ gave us or try to justify a little tweeking of Christ's laws to make it fit into the law of the land, thus giving more importance to the laws of the land over Christ's commandments? (I am not saying disobeying the law of the land - for those of you that want to find an area of weakness to attack my post, I am just saying where one's priority is)

I believe those people that don't respect the law would be better off learning the love of Christ where it seems that many who have posted on this thread have settled with the idea that the only way to get those people to change their ways is to make sure punishment is dealt. That is sooo sad to me. If, we who are Christian have lost hope in that idea, then I guess there is no hope for the criminal.

Are we promoting hope in Christ or not?

[Guest]

I believe those people that don't respect the law would be better off learning the love of Christ where it seems that many who have posted on this thread have settled with the idea that the only way to get those people to change their ways is to make sure punishment is dealt. That is sooo sad to me. If, we who are Christian have lost hope in that idea, then I guess there is no hope for the criminal.

Are we promoting hope in Christ or not?

I don't think anybody here is promoting that the "only way to get those people to change" is to punish them.

What I understand people are saying here, or at least, what I'm saying here... is that in regards to children where the responsibility of their upbringing lies with us, the parents, punishment is "one way" to correct bad behavior. In the case of a society and its criminal element, punishment in the form of incarceration is "a way" to protect the criminal and the society from the ills. No, we don't incarcerate criminals so they will change - that's some bonus that America provides - the rehabilitation part. We incarcerate them to protect them from society and to protect the society from them.

Hope in Christ is something that has nothing to do with the punishment. That is completely between the individual (both the society and the criminal) and Christ.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm not leaving it out (in fact I used it and its synonym pursue several times). I can seek out the right battery for my remote, it doesn't mean there is an emotional investment like you seem to be attaching to the phrase or that I'm gonna go above and beyond and get D cells or something. If you had said we shouldn't derive schadenfreude from administering punishment then I certainly wouldn't have objected.

No, because I disagree that a Christian shouldn't or can't pursue the death of someone else under any circumstance (Teancum sought out the killing of Amalickiah). Changing "seeking out" to deriving schadenfreude I can certainly see where you are coming from (Captain Moroni pursued the killing of people but certainly didn't derive pleasure from doing so). Of course if you do that you don't really need to replace "any punishment" with "any killing". I don't think it's entirely righteous to be deriving schadenfreude from grounding your kid either.

I am sorry if I didn't have the German word equivalent to what I was trying to say, I guess I thought "desire" was a strong enough word. Maybe that word doesn't totally work anyways because it is not just "pleasure" driven but also pride or a sense of carrying out "justice". Some people feel that justice has to be carried out in this life. I don't think it does, it will be taken care of in the next. If that sense of 'need to carry out justice in this life' overpowers the love of Christ then we are in trouble.

Going to your metaphor of "seeking out" a battery for "my remote" is not a great metaphor for what we have been talking about because the OP was about a situation that is not "my" anything. The situation did not belong to that person or is under the direction or responsibility of that person. To be so concerned about someone else' punishment in this life to me implies a bit of emotional attachment of some kind. Either it is fear that that person might harm you. Or it is a sense of wanting justice or revenge etc. for that situation which is also emotional based. My point was that we shouldn't worry about making sure people get punished in this life because I think it does create an emotional reaction that goes against Christ like love towards our enemies, towards those that do us harm.

[Traveler]

Here is the real question though, when it comes to respecting the law, when the two clash as is it seems to be from this discussion, is it better to respect God's law or the law of the land?

Is it better to give importance to the guidelines Christ gave us or try to justify a little tweeking of Christ's laws to make it fit into the law of the land, thus giving more importance to the laws of the land over Christ's commandments? (I am not saying disobeying the law of the land - for those of you that want to find an area of weakness to attack my post, I am just saying where one's priority is)

I believe those people that don't respect the law would be better off learning the love of Christ where it seems that many who have posted on this thread have settled with the idea that the only way to get those people to change their ways is to make sure punishment is dealt. That is sooo sad to me. If, we who are Christian have lost hope in that idea, then I guess there is no hope for the criminal.

Are we promoting hope in Christ or not?

According to prophesy - how will Jesus deal with the criminal element for his return?

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

I am not your judge and it is unfair to try to put me in such a position so that you might defend a specific decision.

I think that's a fair answer. I appreciate that you are not calling me unchristlike.

Go ahead and tell us how you make that fit into what Jesus said; "39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

"Resist not evil". It seems so comprehensive - like such a blanket statement. Makes folks want to think the jury is out - no need to take up arms, defend against bad guys, or even protest when being robbed. In fact, it looks like we're supposed to give bad guys more than they come for, right?

Well, if that scripture existed in a vacuum, that would be one thing - but it doesn't. We have Alma 61:14: "Therefore, ... let us resist evil, and whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our words, yea, such as rebellions and dissensions, let us resist them with our swords". Christ says "resist not evil", righteous, God-fearing Pahoran exhorts Moroni to "resist evil". Things aren't as one-sided as one might think.

Speaking directly to matters of law, we have D&C 134:11 "We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same." It seems to be in direct opposition to verse 39 above, doesn't it? It seems to pretty well cover my specific situation.

We have Christ in Luke, urging his apostles to arm themselves. Alma 43 and 48 talks about folks defending themselves from attack. We have many examples in our early church history of the church trying to get the government to enforce it's laws. Joseph Smith even appealed to the president of the United States for relief against the church's enemies.

Christ saying "resist not evil" seems to be so clear on it's surface, taken alone, and ignoring the rest of the scriptural and doctrinal and historical base. But given the rest of the stuff that's there, can we really convince ourselves that Christ doesn't want us to ever resist evil in any form in any way?

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

This part is easy. Nobody has sued me, nobody has tried to compel me to do anything, nobody has asked to borrow from me. The only people asking me for things, is the victim and victim's mother - asking for my help to keep the guy behind bars so the victim can have some sort of a normal life without being anxiety-ridden that this guy will pop out from around every corner.

43¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

Very important verses. They go hand in hand with D&C 64:10: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." In fact, I would say that these verses are of the highest importance for situations like mine. I would further say that court proceedings and parole hearings and whatnot can be highly emotional times, where we are sorely tested to abide by the commandments to love and forgive everyone - no matter who they are or what they've done to us.

So - I submitted evidence to a parole board in order to keep someone behind bars for a longer time than he might be there if I kept my mouth shut. How do I make that fit with clear commandments to love and forgive? A relevent and excellent question.

I have developed a pretty clear understanding of what love means and doesn't mean. And what forgiveness means and doesn't mean. In this particular case, love and forgiveness do not mean helping this person remove just consequences of their actions from them. This person had parents who fought for years to keep this guy's actions from having consequenses, and the actions got worse and worse until finally he committed this felony. It wasn't his first, but it was the first time someone went to the cops. Tell me - all this sheltering and protecting and enabling by his parents - would you call that love? Is that what forgiveness is supposed to look like? Turning a blind eye to his growing evil?

Well anyway, yes, I have worked very hard to love and forgive this person. I struggle to bear no animosity towards him. I've prayed for him. I sincerely hope he uses this time in prison to get his mind right, so he can be a productive member of society when he gets out. But I remain aware the odds of that are not incredibly great.

LM

[Dravin]

Going to your metaphor of "seeking out" a battery for "my remote" is not a great metaphor for what we have been talking about because the OP was about a situation that is not "my" anything. The situation did not belong to that person or is under the direction or responsibility of that person

Except you said any punishment, which muddled things, it moved things beyond the scope of the original topic of the thread (the death penalty) to include literally anything (well, any punishment) from wiping out a village because they didn't vote for you to putting your child in time out. There are plenty of circumstances in which administering punishment is "my" anything*. Children being a prime example, another being a prosecutor who's job it is to pursue the punishment of others under the law (though they certainly have some discretion).

Edit: Honestly I think what we have here is the law of unintended universals.

* Also certainly plenty of circumstance in which the administration of punishment is none of my business.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Dravin

[LocalFarms]

It is my belief that there are times when the death penalty could be considered a greater mercy ( for society in general but also for the offender). That being said I don't think we are very good at judging when that is so.

[slamjet]

I've been reading through this thread and I am so confused as to where everyone is going, granted, it could very well be because of my mental weakness.

But I am reminded of where it says; it would be good for you to have Kings, if they were all going to be righteous. I do believe here is a danger in having a punishment that is so permanent, it robs the person of any chance of repentance in this life. But the counter argument could be that society demands this kind of judgment and punishment. I fear for a society that finds death to be a suitable option for punishing the criminal. My opinion of this is thus:

1) For society to judge that there is a need to dismiss this person from life for the safety of it's people is almost a non-argument. It stops where it begins. Society cannot control everything around it. There will always be danger. If that argument is placed on one thing, it must be expanded to everything to have any validity. Thus, a chronic drunk driver is also a danger to society, so they must be dispatched for the safety of society because of the odds of taking a life.

2) Societies values and sensibilities are always changing and evolving. To say that today, the death penalty is proper, next year it is not, then the year after it is, denoted that society shifts in what it values are, thus making punishments a matter of perceived needs and fads. To have such a permanent solution takes away any chance that society may change and find other ways of dealing with the criminally violent.

3) What we do with those who are among us will ultimately come back as a judgment of a particular society as a whole. If we are a God fearing people, we need to fear how he sees us as a societal structure. We must be willing to take the punishment as well.

4) There comes a time when punishments do not fit the crime. Here, in California, we have three strikes. It is the worst thing that has happened to this State. It takes a person and tells them that on the third conviction, you are no longer worth our time. Thus, the prisons have become the most vile, based and violent place to live. I kid you not when I tell you that the guards want to not see what is done because it messes up their "program." So we have people in prison for 25-life for stealing a slice of pizza.

5) The powerful will always take advantage of the weak. When a person does a crime, the full force of the State comes crashing down on them. No one, other than the very rich and powerful, has the means to combat such a huge giant. The powerful will pound on the weak to prove their willingness to save society. It is obscene how common and blatant this is. The politicians and jurist all use the backs of the person who has no means of defending themselves to better their position in career and life. In the jails and prisons, the police, sheriffs and CO's all abuse those in their custody because they can, and there's not a thing the prisoner can do about it. It's all about power.

Bottom line, I don't trust man's version of punishment. I've seen too many abuses of it. The D.A has WAY too much power and society is lulled into a false sense of protection. When, in the end, it just serves to ramp up the violence.

[GeneC]

I myself will go by the latest Revelations of God to answer the OP's question.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 134

1 We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life. . . . .

8 We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, in all respects, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquility all men should step forward and use their ability in bringing offenders against good laws to punishment.

----

The Book of Mosiah Chapter 29

14 And even I myself have labored with all the power and faculties which I have possessed, to teach you the commandments of God, and to establish peace throughout the land, that there should be no wars nor contentions, no stealing, nor plundering, nor murdering, nor any manner of iniquity;

15 And whosoever has committed iniquity, him have I punished according to the crime which he has committed, according to the law which has been given to us by our fathers.

---------

[Traveler]

In another life I use to ride to work on a bus with one of Seattle’s finest detectives. One time he had a discussion and I asked his opinion about how to deal with criminals. His opinion shocked me at first - but the more I have learned about criminal elements, the more I agree with his opinion.

He began by saying that it is the nature of criminals and how they think that we must learn to deal with. He said that in dealing with criminals almost anything that is done will only make the criminal more violent. Once a person begins a life of crime it is seldom that they are able to be rehabilitated. Of course there are always exceptions but according to my friend the trend is for criminals to become more violent regardless of the steps and efforts of society. With that background my detective friend suggested that all criminals be dealt with - with a 3 step process.

Step 1. When a criminal is convicted he recommends that the criminal be put on probation - no incarceration. Keep the influence of law abiding society and prevent associations with other criminals. During probation the criminal undergoes rehabilitation training for their crime.

Step 2. If a criminal cannot be rehabilitated while on probation they are then incarcerated and undergo strict social training in a very controlled environment.

Step 3. If a criminal will not be rehabilitated while on probation or incarcerated then they are terminated.

I was shocked and asked my friend if he thought a criminal steeling penny candy for a third time should be executed. My friend I had missed the understanding of a criminal mind. He said that the criminal loves the risk they bring to life and the only way to protect life from them is to end theirs.

One thing I have come to wonder and be concerned with are individuals that want to put the lives of other’s (anyone but themselves) at risk to satisfy their fantasy of what to do with hardened criminals. For example they want to put a hardened criminal in prison for life - forcing guards and others to risk their lives on a daily basis to contain criminals. They claim to respect life but in reality they do not respect the lives that are placed at risk while they indulge their fanaticizes and disconnects with reality and danger of hardened criminals.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

I think there is a difference between me, as an individual, forgiving and praying for someone who has trespassed against me, and allowing society to deal with the criminal.

Back in the 1970s, there were the Ogden Hi-Fi murders, where a group of thugs went into a stereo store, beat the owner almost to death, rammed a pencil into his ear and left him for dead, and while he lay there unable to move, he witnessed his daughter brutally raped and murdered with her boyfriend.

This man recovered, and visited each of these murderers in prison. He frankly forgave them. Still, he allowed society to deal with such dangerous individuals as was best required to protect society.

While Jesus told us to "turn the other cheek", he did not specify whether that was needed in all circumstances, or just in particular ones. Along with that command, God has also commanded to "utterly destroy" on occasion. He commanded the Nephites and Latter-day Saints to defend themselves against their enemies. So there are obviously different ways in which to understand this command. Moroni waged war, but for those Lamanites who sought peace, he allowed them to make an oath of peace and join the Ammonites.

Christ turned the other cheek when the Roman soldiers and Sanhedrin were smiting him. Yet the day will come when he will utterly destroy the wicked.

We can forgive and pray for a brutal murderer, even as he walks the Green Mile.

[NeuroTypical]

Step 3. If a criminal will not be rehabilitated while on probation or incarcerated then they are terminated.

I was shocked and asked my friend if he thought a criminal steeling penny candy for a third time should be executed. My friend I had missed the understanding of a criminal mind. He said that the criminal loves the risk they bring to life and the only way to protect life from them is to end theirs.

I've heard this notion from more than one person who came out of, or works with the criminal element. I can't really bring myself to agree with them, but I have to give weight to their opinion.

My local cops see it this way: It is not possible to get rid of criminals. The best solution our just society has, is for the cops and residents to work together and present a unified front to the criminals, so they go find a different area to prey upon. Living in a crime-free area basically means you live in an area where you are not worth their effort, and there are jucier pickings a few miles down the road or one town over or whatever.

I think there is a difference between me, as an individual, forgiving and praying for someone who has trespassed against me, and allowing society to deal with the criminal.

...

We can forgive and pray for a brutal murderer, even as he walks the Green Mile.

I've found it difficult to put it that simply. Because individuals still must still report crimes and testify and write letters to parole boards and whatnot, in order for 'society to deal with the criminal'. In order to help society deal with the criminal in my life, I've had to put it like this:

"I can forgive and pray for this guy, and support the prosecutorial effort at the same time."

It's a much harder statement, but one I believe to be in harmony with the gospel.

LM

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think there is a difference between me, as an individual, forgiving and praying for someone who has trespassed against me, and allowing society to deal with the criminal.

Back in the 1970s, there were the Ogden Hi-Fi murders, where a group of thugs went into a stereo store, beat the owner almost to death, rammed a pencil into his ear and left him for dead, and while he lay there unable to move, he witnessed his daughter brutally raped and murdered with her boyfriend.

This man recovered, and visited each of these murderers in prison. He frankly forgave them. Still, he allowed society to deal with such dangerous individuals as was best required to protect society.

While Jesus told us to "turn the other cheek", he did not specify whether that was needed in all circumstances, or just in particular ones. Along with that command, God has also commanded to "utterly destroy" on occasion. He commanded the Nephites and Latter-day Saints to defend themselves against their enemies. So there are obviously different ways in which to understand this command. Moroni waged war, but for those Lamanites who sought peace, he allowed them to make an oath of peace and join the Ammonites.

Christ turned the other cheek when the Roman soldiers and Sanhedrin were smiting him. Yet the day will come when he will utterly destroy the wicked.

We can forgive and pray for a brutal murderer, even as he walks the Green Mile.

Yes!, thank you. Thought I was alone on this one. Exactly, we are to forgive all, unless there is specific instruction from God to do otherwise.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I know of an individual in my previous ward who was wrongly accused of murder. He happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There were people in my ward that even testified against this brother. He was in jail for 2 years as the trial went on. During that time, his family was torn apart and he lost contact with a teenage daughter that I happened to be young women's leader over at the time. She fell away from the church because she felt like members of the church turned their backs on her. She felt like people were almost accusing her of the thing her father did or didn't do. His wife also left him towards the end of the trial. In the end, additional information came out and there was DNA evidence of someone else there at the crime scene. They were able to find this individual and convict the right criminal. I feel bad for those that wrongly testified against our brother which led to long lasting consequences for him and his family. I feel for this brother and especially this sweet young lady that was caught up in that situation. That will be on the heads of those that did not follow Christ's counsel to forgive and turn the other cheek. I saw for the first time the blood lust frenzy that exists in this country over punishing individuals, this guilty until proven innocent mentality. Sure, everybody, lets promote that some more! Why don't we go back to public executions like in Christ's time to really get everyone's blood boiling. .... that was sure successful back then.

[Traveler]

Having myself been arrested and the prime suspect in a murder I understand what it is like to be on the wrong side and unable to explain certain things. In my case the ordeal only lasted 3 days. Truth is an interesting thing and very much is how you look at it define you as much as truth itself is defined.

If a society has it in mind to be unjust towards certain individuals, as was the case with Mormons during the Missouri time period it is possible that injustices will take place. It is interesting how many anti Mormons still overlook the wrongs of Missouri accusing Mormons of fomenting the problems. Without question a Christian should never falsely accuse others - but at the same time Christians should stand for what is right. The scriptures tell us there is a time for all things - A time to prepare for war and a time to seek peace. There is also a time to bring justice and a time to forgive.

I believe we can all agree that no one should be falsely accused. I believe we all also agree that a unrepentant criminal must be prevented from harming more. But let us reason together.

1. Will a repentant criminal attempt to avoid punishment? In my view a repentant criminal is willing to take their punishment.

2. Is a just person ruined when being punished for something they did not do? I do not believe so - Jesus suffered unjustly for the sins of all and in so doing only added to his glory. Likewise I believe anyone that suffers wrongly and does not seek revenge will be better for it. Thus I believe punishing a righteous individual will not ruin their lives - unless they cannot forgive.

3. I do not believe justice is revenge - it is possible to seek justice and not seek to punish anyone. However, we also need to understand that blessings come only by obedience - likewise being disobedient will result in loss of blessings. Perhaps the greatest loss - is the trust of those you love.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Having myself been arrested and the prime suspect in a murder I understand what it is like to be on the wrong side and unable to explain certain things. In my case the ordeal only lasted 3 days. Truth is an interesting thing and very much is how you look at it define you as much as truth itself is defined.

If a society has it in mind to be unjust towards certain individuals, as was the case with Mormons during the Missouri time period it is possible that injustices will take place. It is interesting how many anti Mormons still overlook the wrongs of Missouri accusing Mormons of fomenting the problems. Without question a Christian should never falsely accuse others - but at the same time Christians should stand for what is right. The scriptures tell us there is a time for all things - A time to prepare for war and a time to seek peace. There is also a time to bring justice and a time to forgive.

I believe we can all agree that no one should be falsely accused. I believe we all also agree that a unrepentant criminal must be prevented from harming more. But let us reason together.

1. Will a repentant criminal attempt to avoid punishment? In my view a repentant criminal is willing to take their punishment.

2. Is a just person ruined when being punished for something they did not do? I do not believe so - Jesus suffered unjustly for the sins of all and in so doing only added to his glory. Likewise I believe anyone that suffers wrongly and does not seek revenge will be better for it. Thus I believe punishing a righteous individual will not ruin their lives - unless they cannot forgive.

3. I do not believe justice is revenge - it is possible to seek justice and not seek to punish anyone. However, we also need to understand that blessings come only by obedience - likewise being disobedient will result in loss of blessings. Perhaps the greatest loss - is the trust of those you love.

The Traveler

I agree with everything you have said here and I don't want to take away from how you put it together so nicely. I would add one thought though and that is there is damage that can take place in the heart of the accuser unless forgiveness is the overwhelming sentiment.

This may be a topic for another thread but imagine if the Church held to a strict idea of justice as far as upholding the law as it pertains to illegal aliens in this country. What if the church asked every leader, as soon as they discovered a family was here illegally to bring that situation to justice, then according to many on this forum they should be justly punished for their crimes and authorities should be notified immediately. Imagine the prejudice that would come over the church if we were take such a proactive stand. I realize the Church does not support any degree of breaking the law but what if it were to take a proactive stand on that matter which is what I believe many on this forum would prefer happen. I would think that most would agree that that is not an open arms, Christ like approach to the problem. It's a little easier to talk about murders and people that do us physical harm but if one truly believes its our duty to be pro-active about this kind of justice than every illegal alien should be brought to the authorities immediately and we should fight for swift punishment. There is a difference between supporting laws and "seeking out" (taking it on our own shoulders to be the deliverer of justice) punishment for all lawbreakers.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[NeuroTypical]

My story is sort of a mirror-image of seminarysnoozer's story. Here, the perpetrator violated a young girl repeatedly over a series of months. The perp and his family are all LDS, the girl and her mother are not. The family chooses to stand with the perp, and against the girl and her mother. Even though he admitted doing it, everyone has basically written these two people out of their lives, which is a very sore blow to the girl and her mother. When a parole hearing comes, my wife and I are the only mormons in this girl's life that are standing on her side of the aisle. Everyone else thinks they're a bunch of boatrockers and should just shut up.

there is damage that can take place in the heart of the accuser unless forgiveness is the overwhelming sentiment.

I emphatically agree. Although I'd say 'person wronged' instead of 'accuser'. Not all people wronged end up publicly accusing the wrongdoer, but the damage you speak of can take place in their hearts as well.

But yes, it's an important thing to keep in mind. When I head to these parole hearings, I meet with the victim's mother. To put it lightly, she does not 'have forgiveness as her overwhelming sentiment'. I watch her bear a very heavy burden of darkness and bitterness. She struggles enormously to raise her daughter with a positive outlook. Her struggle would be much easier if she could hand over the crushing burden of her anger and thirst for revenge to God - but she isn't letting that be an option. So they struggle, and we all cry together.

I saw for the first time the blood lust frenzy that exists in this country over punishing individuals, this guilty until proven innocent mentality. Sure, everybody, lets promote that some more! Why don't we go back to public executions like in Christ's time to really get everyone's blood boiling. .... that was sure successful back then.

Just wanted to ask if you saw anyone doing that on this thread. If it is, could you point it out?

LM

[GeneC]

I saw for the first time the blood lust frenzy that exists in this country over punishing individuals, this guilty until proven innocent mentality. Sure, everybody, lets promote that some more! Why don't we go back to public executions like in Christ's time to really get everyone's blood boiling. .... that was sure successful back then.

Surely you lump too many people together. Just because people expect or even want Justice doesn't make them blood lusting people.

We are sent down on this earth to learn to be as God is. Without Justice, God would not exist. If God didn't exist then, well, we wouldn't exist. We have to learn God's laws and tools while on this earth, yes, including Justice. You have to learn about it, experience it, be involved with it, and even believe in it. I can't imagine getting to the Post-mortal existence, not knowing anything about Justice, Mercy, Righteous Indignation, needs for opposites, etc. I'd be lost and I and my Heavenly would surely be disappointed that I didn't take the time and opportunity that He had given me to learn these important lessons in this probationary state.

Without these tools the earth would be overrun by Gadianton robbers, murderers, other Secret Combination, the likes of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is hard enough to keep a balance now. Remember God wept when he caused death by the Great Flood, didn't stop him, didn't stop justice, but He wept.

Yes, we can forgive, for that is the task our Lord gave us. This makes us clean of their blood, but it also gives the offender a chance to repent. If the offense be murder and we forgive him and he repents then maybe God's mercy will be invoked. With our job done the rest is in the hands of God and it is then only between the offender and God, our hands have been washed. The command to forgive does not abolish justice or judgment.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Surely you lump too many people together. Just because people expect or even want Justice doesn't make them blood lusting people.

We are sent down on this earth to learn to be as God is. Without Justice, God would not exist. If God didn't exist then, well, we wouldn't exist. We have to learn God's laws and tools while on this earth, yes, including Justice. You have to learn about it, experience it, be involved with it, and even believe in it. I can't imagine getting to the Post-mortal existence, not knowing anything about Justice, Mercy, Righteous Indignation, needs for opposites, etc. I'd be lost and I and my Heavenly would surely be disappointed that I didn't take the time and opportunity that He had given me to learn these important lessons in this probationary state.

Without these tools the earth would be overrun by Gadianton robbers, murderers, other Secret Combination, the likes of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is hard enough to keep a balance now. Remember God wept when he caused death by the Great Flood, didn't stop him, didn't stop justice, but He wept.

Yes, we can forgive, for that is the task our Lord gave us. This makes us clean of their blood, but it also gives the offender a chance to repent. If the offense be murder and we forgive him and he repents then maybe God's mercy will be invoked. With our job done the rest is in the hands of God and it is then only between the offender and God, our hands have been washed. The command to forgive does not abolish justice or judgment.

Wanting justice was not the issue, wanting punishment was.

I was trying to even out the lumping on the other end of the spectrum by my exaggerated terms which seemed to be tolerated when it was used on the other side as was the focus on the word "any". I have never spoken of abolishing justice or judgment just that I put it in the right hands which is not ours. If you want to keep saying that justice and judgment as to God's commandments is in our hands then I would ask that you stop giving examples of situations where God is the one judging and punishing. That is exactly what I have been saying that God is the one who will judge and punish. That is the opposite of what several on this forum are saying that they want it to be in their control. I like your sentence; "With our job done the rest is in the hands of God and it is then only between the offender and God, our hands have been washed." ... I think that is what I have been saying too.

[Dravin]

I was trying to even out the lumping on the other end of the spectrum by my exaggerated terms which seemed to be tolerated when it was used on the other side as was the focus on the word "any"

It's not an exaggeration if you actually said it. Contrary to your "lumping" example you can be quoted saying any punishment.