The death penalty?

[GeneC]

Wanting justice was not the issue, wanting punishment was.

I was trying to even out the lumping on the other end of the spectrum by my exaggerated terms which seemed to be tolerated when it was used on the other side as was the focus on the word "any". I have never spoken of abolishing justice or judgment just that I put it in the right hands which is not ours. If you want to keep saying that justice and judgment as to God's commandments is in our hands then I would ask that you stop giving examples of situations where God is the one judging and punishing. That is exactly what I have been saying that God is the one who will judge and punish. That is the opposite of what several on this forum are saying that they want it to be in their control. I like your sentence; "With our job done the rest is in the hands of God and it is then only between the offender and God, our hands have been washed." ... I think that is what I have been saying too.

By God's law and thus Man's law Justice and Punishment are a matched set. Can't have one without the other. That is God's law and undeniable as well as necessary.

For every sin there is “a punishment affixed.” (Alma 42:18; see also Amos 3:1–2.)

As we are on earth to learn to live Celestially why should it be any different here? Who's laws should man emulate, God's or some other being?

[NeuroTypical]

I have never spoken of abolishing justice or judgment just that I put it in the right hands which is not ours.

...

"With our job done the rest is in the hands of God and it is then only between the offender and God, our hands have been washed." ... I think that is what I have been saying too.

So, I'm trying to understand. What is our job, and how do we know when it's done?

Are you saying that a righteous gospel-minded Saint will not make use of courts and never do anything that might result in someone being sent to prison?

If you believe in courts and prisons, then how can you say justice or judgement does not belong in our hands?

[Seminarysnoozer]

So, I'm trying to understand. What is our job, and how do we know when it's done?

Are you saying that a righteous gospel-minded Saint will not make use of courts and never do anything that might result in someone being sent to prison?

If you believe in courts and prisons, then how can you say justice or judgement does not belong in our hands?

The idea is to first show love and we must, unfortunately, work within the laws of the land in this less than perfect world we live in. The gray areas of this topic though shouldn't result in us feeling like we have an obligation to make sure certain people get punished. I think that thought hardens the heart. For the same reasons going to war and killing, even if it is justified by the law is not easy on the soul. The recreational discussion of how bad someone should be punished, as what happens with shows like Dateline, and even the evening news for that matter is similar to what would happen to the heart if one were to discuss and watch a show on how to kill someone. There is no need to pursue that kind of skill or knowledge in this life unless it is a part of one's profession but that would be a tough profession just like being a professional soldier would be.

My intent was never to give some all encompassing mandate that would serve all situations, I think responders to what I had to say were trying to make it that way. My use of the word "any" is what probably threw people off, I meant it as in "whatever" or "whichever" not "all". I don't think we should spend a lot of thought and energy in trying to figure out if punishment X is the most justice serving and complete punishment over punishment Y. To focus that much on the punishment, in my opinion, is not Christlike. That is not where our focus should be, leave that to those that have that job, or in general the government, the judges etc. When we see wrong, sure, report it to those that have authority to deal with whatever that is but to hire a lawyer to make sure they get the book thrown at them or plea with the judge that they get the death penalty or whatever to me is not Christlike. We don't need to worry about that, they will get whatever punishment God has for them whether in this life or the next if they don't fully repent.

I think what is happening here is it is difficult to separate what some are considering "justice" according to the law of the land and "justice" according to God's laws which I think to some degree overlap but are definitely not the same.

If a murderer for example gets thrown in jail for life, is justice served? You might say yes for the justice regarding the law of the land but you might say, just based on that alone, "no" as far as God's justice, but we wouldn't know, that is my point. The judgment and associated punishment is not within our power as far as God's laws and final judgment goes. ... in my opinion.

Do we have the capacity alone to satisfy God's justice for someone else? Through the laws of the land, I don't think so. Through the avenues of repentance, possibly but that is still between the person and God. So, can we ever aspire to adequately judge and complete the laws of justice by ourselves? I don't think so. So, then why worry about whether the punishment fits the crime? What goal have we achieved by "making sure" someone gets fully punished in this life? Even if someone has been "brought to justice" according to the laws of this land, why would it matter if the person got life in prison over the death penalty? What additional justice or blessing or advantage comes from that as far as God's laws go? I just don't see that as a valuable, fruitful pursuit in this life. If we cry repentance, show love, and let the laws of the land handle what they must, that should be good enough, regardless of the punishment.

So, since we can't know if God's justice has been satisfied (again, in my opinion) by just following the laws of the land then the only potential outcome, for the most part, for someone to pursue punishment for someone else in this life is selfish, i.e. - protection, revenge, fear, anger, etc. The accuser stands to get hurt by those pursuits as opposed to simply taking the approach of turning the other cheek, forgive, forget, show love, compassion for the sinner, pray for the sinner, plea for their repentance etc. and not worrying about what punishment they get in this life. The way Jesus outlined to handle those that harm us or persecute us (and yes there are always exceptions to the rule and go ahead and give the one in a million exception if you must) is to show love.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[NeuroTypical]

Great post, Seminarysnoozer. I disagree quite a bit with many of the details, but sincerely agree with most of your major points.

One of God's promises, is that ultimately 'mercy cannot rob justice'. Here in fallible mortal error-prone agenda-driven fallen-manville, mercy and justice rob each other all the time. Even in the cases we're really trying to do the best we can do.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like President Uchtdorf's article in the Ensign this month, "Looking for the Good".

"President Cannon’s powerful counsel is something we members of the Church should consider with great care. The word of God admonishes the followers of Christ to be “pure, … peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.” For those who make peace, “the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace” (James 3:17, 18).

We have a choice. We can seek for the bad in others. Or we can make peace and work to extend to others the understanding, fairness, and forgiveness we so desperately desire for ourselves. It is our choice; for whatever we seek, that we will certainly find."

...especially the last sentence, "whatever we seek, that we will certainly find." If we seek out punishments for people, that, we will certainly find. If we seek out love, kindness and forgiveness, that we will certainly find, if we 'see the glass half full'. (He seems to understand what the word "seek" means, didn't realize it was such a confusing word for some.)

[Dravin]

(He seems to understand what the word "seek" means, didn't realize it was such a confusing word for some.)

Words can have both multiple denotative and connotative meanings. Though in this case it looks like President Uchtdorf is using the word as a synonym for pursue which by and large people have been using it to mean in this thread. It's your nuance of obsession or over reaching that not everyone is on board with as being an inherent part of the word.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Dravin