Literal sense or symbolic sense of the scriptures

[imanuelga]

Elisha was a prophet of God, in 2KING 21 :

*And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land.

But just after this He cursed little children because they mocked him (because of his hair....) so 42 of them were killed...

2 KING :

23 *And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 *And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

25 *And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

How is it possible that a prophet of god who did many miracles could be justify before God when he cursed them just for this? The everlasting gospel is not a love one? The lord did not teach us to forgive ennemy? and in

Matthieu 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

?

How to explain this ?

[bert10]

Both Samson and David lost their way before they could complete their mission. However, God had foreseen this even before they were called to their mission and God used it, for his glory for his will and purposes are not foiled nor turned aside by the wicked or even those whom he call should fail him like David and Samson. It is much harder to come to the truths of Gospel without the BOM. There is much missing from the bible in the books that are already in the bible. Not to mention those books that God caused the ancient prophets and holy men to write are not included in it. Do you not find it strange that the books of Enoch are not included in the bible? The man who was able to teach a whole city to be translated into heaven are not included in the bible. And what of Melchizedek. In one of my posts on that other site I teach on he, which is Shem the Son of Noah and how he earned his New name as Melchizedek. The way is much harder, without the BOM. Most get lost in false doctrines on faith and grace and ignore completely the words of Jesus. Who said that He came to call sinners unto [the gospel of] Repentance which is is detailed in Hebrews 6:1-2. bert10

Here Paul spoke of men of faith, and Samson is mentionned :

Hebrew 11:32 *"And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

So Paul has a positive vision of Samson also.

[imanuelga]

Both Samson and David lost their way before they could complete their mission. However, God had foreseen this even before they were called to their mission and God used it, for his glory for his will and purposes are not foiled nor turned aside by the wicked or even those whom he call should fail him like David and Samson.

Bert, this is your opinion (and the teachings of the LDS church on Samson), and I respect it, but I don't agree.

Why is Samson so criticized and not Elisha who curse Children because they mocked him ?

The problem is not missing scripture if they really miss... The problem is how they are readen.

I believe that if we read them only in the firt degree, we are like blind people. I believe the lord want the blind to receive his sight (recouvrer la vue) and this means not really of the natural infirmity but the spiritual one.

I think we all have to learn how to really read the bible.

I personnaly, I will not put my confidance in the teachings of this church any more. Because as the lord said :

Matthieu 12:33 *Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

And again, who could believe that this means fruit from a supermarket ? And not what is produced by them ? And the "truths" or teachings are a kind of these fruits...

So I don't know if Samson did commit sins (as David did), I don't believe so personaly... But even if he did... This would be of few importance comparing with it is hidden in the story.

I would like to point that it is not evident in the bible to know if the lord agree or not what a profet or a personne did. Sometime It can look strange. Take the example of Elisha , or when the guy who wanted to help the arch and died because of this. That counts it is not really the action itself but the "symbolic" (some would say the internal) sense, the representation of a spiritual truth...

When David commit his sin the writter was clear :"

2 Samuël 11:27 *And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

This is not the case with Samson. By the contrary, It is written :

31 *Then his brethren and all the house of his father came down, and took him, and brought him up, and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the buryingplace of Manoah his father. And he judged Israel twenty years.

And again this refer to the resurrection of Christ : because He was taken by friend and brothers :

John 19:38 *¶And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

And also the angels.

God Bless you.

Edited April 25, 2011 by imanuelga

[bert10]

A lot of time the problem is personal interpretation of the bible. The word children still apply to them who are 8 years old and could understand the law. And so they were under the law. No man can handle the powers of heaven unrighteously. So if you remember this..you will not judge evil the dignities of God.

It was in those days and still is today a sin to dishonor one's Elder. This is not taught today. But the law is still there. It is a mistake to judge those things according to our own sense of good and evil.

The thing that we all have to realize is that men of the OT all had weaknesses. Also forgiveness of sin is dependent on the severity of the sin. There are some sins that can be forgiven in this world, and there are some sins that cannot be forgiven in this world only in the next world...and there are some sins that are not forgiven in this world nor in the world to come. Jesus spoke on unpardonable sin.

Why? Because some sin put men beyond the power of the Holy Ghost to bring them into repentance. And without repentance they cannot be forgiven and so are called sons of perdition.

David's sin concerning Uriah could not be forgiven in this world. Simply because his repentance could not restore Uriah his life back and his wife. But he did receive the promise of the Lord that His soul would not stay in hell forever. Psalms 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. David will resurrect with the unjust at judgment day. And the Apostle said of David...that David did not rise with the just. Neither was he seen in Jerusalem with the rest of the prophets.

Acts 2:29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

You are right to judge by fruits. Which religion fought publicly against same sex marriage? Which modern day religion lost their first two temple like Israel did? Which modern day religion had the hand of GOD to save them twice from the mobs and the militias and the evil State Governors and the inept Congress to be able to respect their rights? Which modern day religion went into the wilderness like Israel of old? And which modern day religion were removed twice from their land like Israel was?

Do not be afraid show me which modern day religion the world hated so much that they had to undergo these things and witnessed the Hand of GOD in saving them and taking them out of Egypt like God did with the LDS? There is none.

The world love these new religions and they in turn love the world. And one thing they have in common is that they are united in their fight and hatred of the LDS church.

You posted "I think we all have to learn how to really read the bible." What we do not need is another take on the bible that comes from the wisdom of man. What we need is to have more people read the scriptures and the Bom with the Spirit of GOD.

bert10

Bert, this is your opinion (and the teachings of the LDS church on Samson), and I respect it, but I don't agree.

Why is Samson so criticized and not Elisha who curse Children because they mocked him ?

The problem is not missing scripture if they really miss... The problem is how they are readen.

I believe that if we read them only in the firt degree, we are like blind people. I beleave the lord want the blind to receive his sight (recouvrer la vue) and this means not really of the natural infirmity but the spiritual one.

I think we all have to learn how to really read the bible.

I personnaly, I will not put my confidance in the teachings of this church any more. Because as the lord said :

Matthieu 12:33 *Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

And again, who could believe that this means fruit from a supermarket ? And not that is produced by them ? And the "truths" or teachings are a kind of these fruits...

So I don't know if Samson did commit sins (as David did), I don't believe so personaly... But even if he did... This would be of few importance comparing with it is hidden in the story.

I would like to point that it is not evident in the bible to know if the lord agree or not what a profet or a personne did. Sometime It can look strange. Take the example of Elisha , or when the guy who wanted to help the arch and died because of this. That counts it is not really the action itself but the "symbolic" (some would say the internal) sense, the representation of a spiritual truth...

When David commit his sin the writter was clear :"

2 Samuël 11:27 *And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

This is not the case with Samson. By the contrary, It is written :

31 *Then his brethren and all the house of his father came down, and took him, and brought him up, and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the buryingplace of Manoah his father. And he judged Israel twenty years.

And again this refer to the resurrection of Christ : because He was taken by friend and brothers :

John 19:38 *¶And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

And also the angels.

God Bless you.

Edited April 18, 2011 by bert10

[imanuelga]

Hello Bert10,

First of all, I never said that Elisha was wrong to curse the child.. I just said that the Church don't use the same kind of glass (for eyes) to judge Samson and Elisha. You seems to say that today it is still a sin to dishonor one's Elder... I may agree, but would an elder curse a child because he has mocked him ( and not really his preastood but his lack of hair...) ?

That today a child curse himself because he is doing what is wrong, I can understand,but that an elder ask God to curse this child is not understandable ! If not, because in those days, it was the symbol that count (as I said previouly : "That counts it is not really the action itself but the symbolic, (some would say the internal) sense, the representation of a spiritual truth")... Would you not pray for these children yourself if you would have been mocked, remembering the word of the Lord in the cross "God forgive them because they don't know what they are doing" ?

But my point was not only this one... And I didn't take this example of Elisha casually... The story of Samson and Elisha have both this in common that it is about the hair !!

And in the scriptures, there is a lot about the hair :

Lévitique 21:10 *¶And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;

Numbers 6:5 *All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

18 *And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

In the book of Mormon, it is said and this is true that the law of moses was a representation of the things to come and of Christ. So what is it represented by the hair ?

And will this not explain why Samson was so strong or why Elisha curse these children (42 died) ?

And in the case of samson he had 7 locks of his head. What are these locks representing?

It is a mistake to judge those things according to our own sense of good and evil.

No man can handle the powers of heaven unrighteously. So if you remember this..you will not judge evil the dignities of God.

I agree so much with you !! But why do you tell this to me who is defending the Samson as also Elisha ? But not to the church.. who is judging Samson ??

How could Samson have done so many powerfull things, if he was not guided by God?

You finish showing your love for the church. I respect it. I have no hate against any members... Even the leaders... But I am saying that what it is teached is wrong concerning Samson ! And also concerning much of the bible... And the way or read the scripture... Am I responsable if they criticized Samson they do not understand?

And I am just saying without any hate : you are wrong.

Why am I saying this to "happy people" as it is said in the BOM ? For the same reason I was a missionnary of this church 20 years ago in Spain and knocked doors (and missionaries still say to those they teach) : Just because what I believe to be true (I wanted it so much...). And because I will not let a innocent (Samson) be dishonored without saying anything.

Concerning the persecutions the church did suffer, what I know is the love of the lord for this church, as the love of Samson for the woman he loved and the proof of love he gave to her giving his secret and putting his live in his hand. Giving himself completely because of his love for her.Being tortured. Yes, I can see (understand) that he, the Christ, accepted to go down to Hell (Gaza means "Strong Place") under any one as Samson was under all philisteans.

And I do understand that with the power of God the Christ was able to fight and distroy even the all hell as Samson in this temple of Dagon. And after this overwhelming victory, he was brought by his brothern and friends to his father as the lord by the disciples and the angels.

So I know Dalila represents the true love of the Lord, his true Church !

God Bless you.

Edited April 25, 2011 by imanuelga

[bert10]

The Story of Samson is a wonderful Story. It shows how even those who are called by God can fail and how they can find redemption and glorify GOD. Samson was the closing of an Era.

As for the hair and wine thing...it is part of consecrating oneself to God. The Nazarene way.

As for the thing with the children, we do not know the whole story. And prophets usually hear God in their heart. The prophet did as God commanded him to do. We as man are commanded to forgive and to pray for others. And prophets of God have this within themselves. But there are times when God's judgment comes is an override our inclination. For example see Abraham trying to save Sodom and Gomorrah. God's see further and His reasons for doing something is infinitely better than our judgment.

bert10

Hello Bert10,

First of all, I never said that Elisha was wrong to curse the child.. I just said that the Church don't use the same kind of glass (for eyes) to judge Samson and Elisha. You seems to say that today it is still a sin to dishonor one's Elder... I may agree, but would an elder curse a child because he has mocked him ( and not really his preastood but his lack of hair...) ?

That today a child curse himself because he is doing what is wrong, I can understand,but that an elder ask God to curse this child is not understandable ! If not, because in those days, it was the symbol that count (as I said previouly : "That counts it is not really the action itself but the symbolic, (some would say the internal) sense, the representation of a spiritual truth")... Would you not pray for these children yourself if you would have been mocked, remembering the word of the Lord in the cross "God forgive them because they don't know what they are doing" ?

But my point was not only this one... And I didn't take this example of Elisha casually... The story of Samson and Elisha have both this in common that it is about the hair !!

And in the scriptures, there is a lot about the hair :

Lévitique 21:10 *¶And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;

Numbers 6:5 *All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

18 *And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

In the book of Mormon, it is said and this is true that the law of moses was a representation of the things to come and of Christ. So what is it represented by the hair ?

And will this not explain why Samson was so strong or why Elisha curse these children (42 died) ?

And in the case of samson he had 7 locks of his head. What are these locks representing?

I agree so much with you !! But why do you tell this to me who is defending the Samson as also Elisha ? But not to the church.. who is judging Samson ??

How could Samson have done so many powerfull things, if he was not guided by God?

You finish showing your love for the church. I respect it. I have no hate against any members... Even the leaders... But I am saying that what it is teached is wrong concerning Samson ! And also concerning much of the bible... And the way or read the scripture... Am I responsable if they criticized Samson they do not understand?

And I am just saying without any hate : you are wrong.

Why am I saying this to "happy people" as it is said in the BOM ? For the same reason I was a missionnary of this church 20 years ago in Spain and knocked doors (and missionaries still say to those they teach) : Just because what I believe to be true (I wanted it so much...). And because I will not let a innocent (Samson) be dishonored without saying anything.

Concerning the persecutions the church did suffer, what I know is the love of the lord for this church, as the love of Samson for the woman he loved and the proof of love he gave to her giving his secret and putting his live in his hand. Giving himself completely because of his love for her.Being tortured. Yes, I can see (understand) that he, the Christ, accepted to go down to Hell (Gaza means "Strong Place") under any one as Samson was under all philisteans.

And I do understand that with the power of God the Christ was able to fight and distroy even the all hell as Samson in this temple of Dagon. And after this overwhelming victory, he was brought by his brothern and friends to his father as the lord by the disciples and the angels.

So I know Dalila represents the true love of the Lord, his true Church !

God Bless you.

[imanuelga]

Bert10,

Thank you for your answer. You didn't say that Samson commited a suicide... Or that he thought only on revenge...

You said that the story of Samson is a marvelous story, You said that it show that one can find redemption. It is true for us : Matthieu 16:25 *For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

As you can see, I believe that this story show also the relation of Christ with human kind.

The first woman (philistin) was the Israel church. The second one is a prostitute (see apocalypse) and the last one is the one he loved (even if she betrayed him as judah).

Can't you see paralelism between the end of Samson and the last days of the Lord ?

You said that the hair represent only dedication of Nazarene, but have a look at these scriptures :

Ezéchiel 8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

Ezéchiel 5:1 ¶And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.

2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

Ezéchiel 44: 20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.

Here, it is not about Nazarene...

Edited April 20, 2011 by imanuelga

[imanuelga]

Was is the same gospel for the jews before Christ and after?

Look at this story in the book of 1 King:

1 KING 13:1 *¶And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.

2 *And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

3 *And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.

4 *And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.

5 *The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.

6 *And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.

7 *And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

8 *And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

9 *For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

10 *So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.

11 *¶Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.

12 *And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.

13 *And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the ***. So they saddled him the ***: and he rode thereon,

14 *And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.

15 *Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

16 *And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

17 *For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

18 *He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

19 *So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.

20 *And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:

21 *And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,

22 *But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

23 *¶And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ***, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.

24 *And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the *** stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

25 *And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

26 *And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him.

27 *And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ***. And they saddled him.

28 *And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the *** and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ***.

29 *And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ***, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

30 *And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!

31 *And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones:

32 *For the saying which he cried by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass.

33 *After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.

34 *And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.

How could a prophet lie to a man of God ? How could a profet became an occasion to fall and not be punished by God? And the one who falled be destroyed without mercy ?

Romains 14:13 *Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

What is it teached in this story?

Edited April 30, 2011 by imanuelga