Can atheism be illogical, even if there is no god?


riverogue
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"aqge" I mean against.

Do you know of atheists who leave any "true religion", due to scientific logical reasoning, feel that atheism brings unhappiness?

My definition of a "true religion": A religion that inspires love, and its innocent believers are not used as pawns for some immoral purpose, but for a moral purpose instilling happiness, regardless of how untrue or scientifically illogical the doctrines of said religion are.

So, is leaving "true religion" as one deciding that god doesn't exist, then considered illogical, even if god really doesn't exist?

P.S. My posting infraction about the Book of Mormon and it's origins from those various manuscripts were ill researched. Later, I spent about an hour browsing through the Spaulding document and could find no real ties to the Book of Mormon other than what I understand as a theory of the time explaining burial mounds and artifacts of the region. I read somewhere today that the historical record tieing Rigdon to the family of the deceased Solomon Spaulding's family's community was a forgery by Mark Hoffman. Could be true, or not; I do not know. But I will be more sensible next time and not post stuff like that.

Edited by riverogue
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You may wonder why am I so concerned about this? Have you ever been used as a pawn in the extermination of anothers life in the name of your religion? I want to take down my photo with my uniform. I hate it when people tell me that they appreciate that I went to war for the country. I only agreed to join the army for the money. I was willing to kill others who were merely being used as pawns by those with power in Iraq, just so that my now exwife and I could live comfortably. And I felt justified in it because my beliefs were that I was serving god and man. Not only that, but I had a spouse leave me because I was fundamentalist and hypocritical in my religious beliefs. And now here I am leaving my religion. So yeah I do feel crappy about what went down.

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I"m not questioning what you feel. I'm not going to insult you by saying I know how you feel, nor what you are going through. It's just that you asked a question that, as far as I've been able to figure out, is if a person can go from believing in God, to not believing in God and still be content and/or happy?

If that's the question, I can only answer on how it affected and helped me. All I know is the pain I felt from my activities and leaving a swath of victims behind was lifted because I cried out to the Lord for his Atonement to please lift this pain. And he did. But it was a process to get to that point. The process, I've found, really runs very close to the five stages of grief:

  • Denial
  • Anger
  • Bargaining
  • Depression
  • Acceptance

I can tell you that the Atonement includes ALL the pains that we could ever have in this life. The question you need to ask yourself is if you are willing to give it a chance? You're going to go back and forth because of the process of trying to find peace, but it's a journey only you can go on. It is a journey that you will ultimately have to live with, however you decide to travel it.

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Even if The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints is Gods inspired true church, I was not in God's true church, even if I was baptised, and active, and everything. But now I no longer believe. And It hurts to not have an afterlife to look forward too, and I do not know what I am going to do with my life. Whether to stay within the church as a nonbeliever and try to glean what I can from the moral principals that are taught, or stay away?

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Being hurt that you no longer have an afterlife sounds like you still have some belief still left. The question to stay as a non-believer or not is a personal decision on your part. The only suggestion I would ever give you is to talk to a professional counselor/therapist. You need to work through some stuff and PTSD that they will have the insight to guide you through. Religion doesn't seem like, at least to me, the issue. It's the internal battle of conscience that being waged inside you. I may not have been to war, but I have had plenty of personal experience with PTSD. It will literally make you think, if not make you insane.

Talk to someone. It can only help.

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To answer the title:

Straight up 100% atheism* isn't logical (of course neither is 100% straight up Deism from the same argument*) as absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Logically speaking that one can't prove a God exists doesn't mean he does not. That said agnosticism is perfectly logical (even strong agnostism aka 95% atheism or what have you).

* One who says "There is no God" as opposed to "I don't believe there is a God." Which when speaking colloquially is a fine distinction that most don't make. The logical error is in concluding because he hasn't been proven he doesn't exist, not in operating under the position that until proven otherwise you will operate under the assumption that he does not. Also this would apply to a God in general terms, one could under certain circumstances say a certain described God doesn't exist. As if the requirement of your God is anyone with a phone can dial 2345 and get connected to him and people can't do such then such a God as described can logically be concluded not to exist (though a different 'version', for lack of a different word, may).

Of course logical and reasonable aren't always one and the same and is highly subjective.

Edited by Dravin
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But now I no longer believe. And It hurts to not have an afterlife to look forward too, and I do not know what I am going to do with my life. Whether to stay within the church as a nonbeliever and try to glean what I can from the moral principals that are taught, or stay away?

I've seen people lose faith and leave the religion of their upbringing before. When it is replaced by something else meaningful, they report growth, comfort, and peace. When it's like a hole just opens up and everything they used to believe drains out, they do indeed report stuff like you're expressing.

I see you are hurting, river. I wish there was something I could do to help. I can't really offer much besides pointing you in the direction of people in similar situations. You are certainly not alone in what you're going through - finding others and talking with them, seems to help in such situations.

I won't say God bless - but I will wish the best for you.

LM

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Since no one can scientifically prove/disprove the existence of God, atheism is neither logical nor illogical. It is just another set of beliefs, as we have in the various religions.

Any belief system can bring happiness or misery, depending on how it is implemented and used by the individual. The idea of being worm food can bring some atheists to despair, while for others they focus on the circle of life and how they can make a difference to things here and in the future.

Religion can bring people purpose if implemented correctly. But it can also distract people from truly important principles. For example, the Taliban's form of Islam abuses women and dehumanizes them. But in the LDS Church, man and woman are equals who can spend eternity together. If the LDS individual focuses on the beauty of Christ's atonement, then they will be happy. If that person focuses on all the many "requirements" they need to do to save him/herself, then that person will bear a lot of misery.

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Guest Godless

I've seen people lose faith and leave the religion of their upbringing before. When it is replaced by something else meaningful, they report growth, comfort, and peace. When it's like a hole just opens up and everything they used to believe drains out, they do indeed report stuff like you're expressing.

Emphasis mine.

The experience you described is called transitional agnosticism, and it's a very common struggle for those who abandon theism. It usually doesn't last though. Eventually, the individual either builds a new atheist worldview or attempts to find a theist belief system that makes more sense than the one that was previously held. The former outcome is probably the most common due to the fact that atheism accommodates a wide range of non-theist worldviews and philosophies rather than the rigid set of dogmatic principles and beliefs that are commonly found in theist religions.

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I won't explain my circumstances but I'm in a position to emphasize with you. Have you read the poem "Footprints in the Sand"? The Official Footprints In The Sand Page

I think it may apply in your case it has brought me much comfort.

PTSD is a KILLER (without the Gospel I'd be dead some 40 years now) and it get's worse with time if left untreated. In your case it can be literally a double killer for you are at the point of being unpardonable especially being a returned Missionary. Sorry to be so frank but you are my literal brother and I bear my testimony in the name of Jesus Christ that there is a God and He LOVES you, as I do, and wishes you to return to His side. You must have fought valiantly in the pre-mortal life and you went out to bring souls to Christ in this life so you are a choice soul.

As far as the Iraq business, just remember that what is happening there is that it is being prepared to receive Missionaries and it's people to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and you were a part of that, not a bad thing at all. ITNOJC amen.

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Guest Godless

In your case it can be literally a double killer for you are at the point of being unpardonable especially being a returned Missionary.

I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't teach that.

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In your case it can be literally a double killer for you are at the point of being unpardonable especially being a returned Missionary.

Uhm, ok, you need to really not only be carefully here, but doctrinally correct because this is FALSE doctrine. Only deity will judge the unpardonable sin, not us. We have no place to go there. There is no unpardonableness in questioning and trying to sort things out. So give it a rest. And give him some room to breathe. Don't start throwing stuff out there that has no value of helping.

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Uhm, ok, you need to really not only be carefully here, but doctrinally correct because this is FALSE doctrine. Only deity will judge the unpardonable sin, not us. We have no place to go there. There is no unpardonableness in questioning and trying to sort things out. So give it a rest. And give him some room to breathe. Don't start throwing stuff out there that has no value of helping.

Nobody said anything about me, you or any human judging this person. Read what I say not what you read into it. For your information changing to Atheism is not questioning and trying to sort things out.

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Guest Godless

For your information changing to Atheism is not questioning and trying to sort things out.

It's also not an instant process. As I said, there's a transitional phase that people go to when they decide that their religious beliefs aren't working out for them. There's a lot of questioning and searching that goes on during that time. Sometimes people go though all that only to have a stronger testimony of their original set of beliefs than they did previously.

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Look, you threw out a statement of judgment when you typed out "for you are" in the sentence. And it is quite normal for a person to leave the Church and question the reality of God. It is trying to sort things out in ones head. I have personal experience with it.

In this case, he's trying to come to terms with what he was sent to a country to do. He's got a lot on his mind and a lot going on. He should not be blamed for questioning if there is a God or not. This is a personal question that only he can come to the conclusion of. I hope he finds that there is a Father in Heaven who loves him dearly, but I can't give that to him. So telling him that he's in unpardonable territory is not only not helping, but it's not correct and we are not qualified to throw that at him.

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The unpardonable sin is when someone has a full witness of Jesus Christ, then openly becomes his enemy. This normally includes murdering an innocent. Cain is the exemplar here. He spoke with God, and instead chose to worship Satan, seek to become Master Mahan, and rejoiced in killing his innocent brother.

I do not believe the OP has seen Jesus, has chosen to be his sworn enemy, or has killed innocent people on purpose. He is not eligible to be a Son of Perdition. He has not broken the unpardonable sin.

Even as an atheist or agnostic, one may believe in an afterlife. Hindus/Buddhists are atheists of a sort, yet they believe in the spirit continuing after death. They have sought a religion that can bring them focus and peace. And for many of them, it does. Again, it depends upon how the individual attempts to implement it personally.

Life is never easy. Had the OP gone to war as an atheist, he would still have struggled with the concept of going for patriotism or for a paycheck. Often in life, we must do things we hate, or which affect us deeply. Perhaps it is times like this when we ponder whether there is a God, and if so, where is he?

Religion can sometimes give us answers to things that are terrible. LDS believe we go through trials, tragedies and terror as a form of spiritual development. Such struggles help us to appreciate and turn to the atonement for healing. These struggles also allow us to learn from others' and our own experience. These tragedies help us to understand eternal concepts, how to reach out to others, have charity and compassion, and how to be Christ-like.

I know some atheists who still study the Bible. Why? Because they believe the main teachings of Jesus are necessary to a world spinning out of control. If mankind can adopt his teachings of faith, hope, love, compassion, service, humility, etc., then we can build a world of peace and joy. For them, Jesus is the Master Teacher. Mahatma Gandhi considered becoming Christian due to Jesus' teachings (which he studied all his life, and guided him in the principles of peaceful revolution). However, he never became Christian because he saw that most Christians did not follow Jesus' teachings, but just gave lip service to them. He chose to remain Hindu and follow Jesus' teachings.

Perhaps there is some guidance in the above for the OP to find a place for himself in the faith or psyche of such ideas, and in doing so, find peace and joy.

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Look, you threw out a statement of judgment when you typed out "for you are" in the sentence. And it is quite normal for a person to leave the Church and question the reality of God. It is trying to sort things out in ones head. I have personal experience with it.

In this case, he's trying to come to terms with what he was sent to a country to do. He's got a lot on his mind and a lot going on. He should not be blamed for questioning if there is a God or not. This is a personal question that only he can come to the conclusion of. I hope he finds that there is a Father in Heaven who loves him dearly, but I can't give that to him. So telling him that he's in unpardonable territory is not only not helping, but it's not correct and we are not qualified to throw that at him.

Nobody's blaming anybody. If anything was "thrown out" it was a warning to be careful as an Atheist denies the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ. No God, no Godhead, no Holy Ghost. Maybe read Doctrine and Covenants 76 in it's entirety

You may not be able to give him the knowledge of a Father in Heaven but you can testify to it after all that is the crux of the Gospel.

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The unpardonable sin is when someone has a full witness of Jesus Christ, then openly becomes his enemy. This normally includes murdering an innocent. Cain is the exemplar here. He spoke with God, and instead chose to worship Satan, seek to become Master Mahan, and rejoiced in killing his innocent brother.

I do not believe the OP has seen Jesus, has chosen to be his sworn enemy, or has killed innocent people on purpose. He is not eligible to be a Son of Perdition. He has not broken the unpardonable sin.

Even as an atheist or agnostic, one may believe in an afterlife. Hindus/Buddhists are atheists of a sort, yet they believe in the spirit continuing after death. They have sought a religion that can bring them focus and peace. And for many of them, it does. Again, it depends upon how the individual attempts to implement it personally.

Life is never easy. Had the OP gone to war as an atheist, he would still have struggled with the concept of going for patriotism or for a paycheck. Often in life, we must do things we hate, or which affect us deeply. Perhaps it is times like this when we ponder whether there is a God, and if so, where is he?

Religion can sometimes give us answers to things that are terrible. LDS believe we go through trials, tragedies and terror as a form of spiritual development. Such struggles help us to appreciate and turn to the atonement for healing. These struggles also allow us to learn from others' and our own experience. These tragedies help us to understand eternal concepts, how to reach out to others, have charity and compassion, and how to be Christ-like.

I know some atheists who still study the Bible. Why? Because they believe the main teachings of Jesus are necessary to a world spinning out of control. If mankind can adopt his teachings of faith, hope, love, compassion, service, humility, etc., then we can build a world of peace and joy. For them, Jesus is the Master Teacher. Mahatma Gandhi considered becoming Christian due to Jesus' teachings (which he studied all his life, and guided him in the principles of peaceful revolution). However, he never became Christian because he saw that most Christians did not follow Jesus' teachings, but just gave lip service to them. He chose to remain Hindu and follow Jesus' teachings.

Perhaps there is some guidance in the above for the OP to find a place for himself in the faith or psyche of such ideas, and in doing so, find peace and joy.

This also includes:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 76

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

--------------

Alma Chapter 39

6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.

.....

and thus the "caution proceed with care"

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