from a scientific perspective


kimz
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I think evidence has come forth in the last 20 years that certain spiritual people have an actual genetic marker for spirituality. This marker is called a midi-chlorian, and can be measured in the blood with the appropriate equipment. Chinese scientist Qui Gon Jinn stated that he has found the equipment to be extremely reliable in detecting midi-chlorian markers in children. They vary in individuals from virtually non-existent to amounts that are large enough to determine that the child will undoubtedly grow up to be the next religious Billy Graham or Pope.

Of course there are studies that show that religious people tend to be happier, live longer, etc.

Church-goers tend to be happier, study says - Health - Behavior - msnbc.com

Is God an Anti-Depressant? - ABC News

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A nephew of mine is experiencing a crisis of faith, and questioning his testimony. At issue is whether we at times condition ourselves to react to emotional issues then convince ourselves that it is the spirit, particularly in regard to personal revelation. Are there actually physiological reactions to spiritual promptings that are not emotional reactions? I have looked on LDS.com, and have not been able to find any articles that address that specific point. I know that both President Eyring and his father have an education founded in science, but have not been able to find any articles that address this either. Just wondered if anyone could point me in a direction to look further.

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A nephew of mine is experiencing a crisis of faith, and questioning his testimony. At issue is whether we at times condition ourselves to react to emotional issues then convince ourselves that it is the spirit, particularly in regard to personal revelation. Are there actually physiological reactions to spiritual promptings that are not emotional reactions? I have looked on LDS.com, and have not been able to find any articles that address that specific point. I know that both President Eyring and his father have an education founded in science, but have not been able to find any articles that address this either. Just wondered if anyone could point me in a direction to look further.

I don't think you'll find any reliable studies along that matter. How would you test it? Putting people in an MRI and having them say, "Yep, having a revelation, mark that on the scan." is rather problematic methodology wise and then even if you could reliably get scans when people are having revelation, or rather say they are, how do you determine the scan results you get are the results of revelation or just the results of people thinking (rightly or wrongly) they are receiving revelation? I suppose you could test other systems other than the brain but the same issues apply.

The answer to your nephew's question is that we most certainly can mistake emotion for the spirit (actually President Hunter warned against equating the spirit with strong emotion for precisely that pitfall). I experienced something in which I feel the truthfulness of the Gospel was confirmed to me. Could those have been the imaginings of a frenzied mind as Korihor put it? They could have, but that's where faith comes in.

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A nephew of mine is experiencing a crisis of faith, and questioning his testimony. At issue is whether we at times condition ourselves to react to emotional issues then convince ourselves that it is the spirit, particularly in regard to personal revelation. Are there actually physiological reactions to spiritual promptings that are not emotional reactions? I have looked on LDS.com, and have not been able to find any articles that address that specific point. I know that both President Eyring and his father have an education founded in science, but have not been able to find any articles that address this either. Just wondered if anyone could point me in a direction to look further.

If this is the reason you're looking for this information, then you might be trying to find the wrong solution. A crisis of faith is not going to be solved by science. A crisis of faith can only be solved by... faith.

As far as physiological reactions go, you'll be hard pressed to find scientific findings on any of that stuff. Because all emotions are physiological in nature and all physiological reactions are manifested in emotional expressions. The source of such and the interpretation of why the physiological/emotional event is present is all interpolation.

What you need to do is leave him to his musings until he gains a testimony. You can't convince him one way or the other. Only the Spirit can impress upon him the truth of the gospel. But then, he will only receive such manifestation of truth if he truly seeks it. Debating him on the issue is not going to help.

So, it's only worth 1 cent... but it's what I think. :)

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It ends up being a matter of faith. However, there are spiritual experiences in the LDS history where hundreds saw angels, spoke in tongues, etc. Such was the dedication of the Kirtland temple, where people both inside and outside the temple experienced this. Many from their homes could see angels in white walking on the roof of the temple.

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There is no answer to the question. What would the result be of any test, how would the test be conducted, what would the empirical evidence look like let alone what would the accepted scientific definition of a "spiritual experience" be?

The only real evidence is philosophical:

  • Where did we come from?
  • Why are we here?
  • What will we do with the information?

What one does with these three questions is different with each person. Thus no real way to have a control vs experiment.

So the question is no, there cannot be a scientific based answer because it is not scientific, it is philosophical.

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Natural law can in many cases be modeled mathematically, so we can predict or anticipate physical needs/situations. Some of the most important #'s are *irrational*, such as Pi (volume capacity of a grain silo) Phi (I forgot) and e (mortgage payments, biological growth and decay rates).

Spiritual experiences follow natural law(though I'll grant we don't know most of these), and are *irrational*, or to sound better, *non-rational*. The human mind is inherently non-rational, which explains why we need to learn rational tools to help us think clearly, such as formal and mathematical(algebraic and calculus) logic operations.

It also explains why religion, as a primarily non-rational exercise, is so meaningful and useful to we humans, and connects so expertly to our emotional well-being.

Sorry.

HiJolly

Edited by HiJolly
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Hi Kimz,

I've never seen anything documented, but I've written down an experience I had that might help:

My experience, for what it's worth: After I had spent a year or so praying for an answer, and after receiving one, I was able to test this "answer", this influence of the spirit, this burning in the bosom, fairly scientifically.

I had an issue that I needed guidance on, and took it to the Lord. What I needed to do in the situation was fairly evident, but I desired that confirmation. To my surprise, the confirmation was to NOT do what I figured was correct. The expirement took about 30 seconds, and went like this:

"Lord, should I do this?" (speaking the words internally)

(nothing for 5 seconds)

"Lord, should I not do this?"

(confirmation - burning in the bosom for 5 seconds)

"Should I do this?"

(confirmation off - like someone had thrown a switch)

"Should I not do this?"

(confirmation on - again like an internal switch was thrown)

I did this a few more times. Throughout the rest of the day and week, I was able to "feel the spirit" every time I thought about what had happened.

So, I acted on what the confirmation directed - and I did NOT do what I thought was the correct thing. Within two days, an event occured that set things to right, that would not have occurred if I had acted as I thought I should. My initial estimation of what to do, turned out to be less desirable than what actually happened.

I've never heard of anyone who claimed to be able to turn an emotional reaction on and off several times in a minute. I'm familiar with how our brains and psyches work, and I'm aware of various ways we humans convince ourselves of what we want to be convinced of, true or false. I'm aware of the phenomenons of self- and group-hypnosis. I understand 'groupthink', "brainwashing", and manipulation of reality by people in authority. This wasn't like any of those.

So the point is, this very convincing scientific test (it was to me, anyway), did not occur until AFTER I had exercised my faith, and spent a year on my knees asking to know if God existed or not. I figure if you demand something similar up front, you'll probably go away empty handed.

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A nephew of mine is experiencing a crisis of faith, and questioning his testimony. At issue is whether we at times condition ourselves to react to emotional issues then convince ourselves that it is the spirit, particularly in regard to personal revelation. Are there actually physiological reactions to spiritual promptings that are not emotional reactions? I have looked on LDS.com, and have not been able to find any articles that address that specific point. I know that both President Eyring and his father have an education founded in science, but have not been able to find any articles that address this either. Just wondered if anyone could point me in a direction to look further.

This is, in fact, one of the main reasons to come here and receive a body and have those very experiences. It is to develop a sense of what is from the spirit versus our carnal nature. To distinguish the two and discern the promptings comes from familiarity with the spirit and experience. It's something we all have to learn but can't be forced or taught but by experience. It is like telling someone how to ride a bike or play the piano, eventually the only way to really learn that is to experience it and try it yourself. One may even fall of the bike, so to speak, but that is the price we pay for having the opportunity to learn such things.

The actual circuitry and the way the spirit communicates or influences the body, we don't know. Does it connect with the circuit of Papez, or have some direct connection to hypothalamic circuits or have more of a connection with intracellular mechanisms, we don't know that. My feeling is that it must be through the brain. It certainly isn't through the heart even though we metaphorically say it might be, as people have heart transplants all the time and remain themselves. Nobody has ever had a brain transplant though.

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kimz-

I have had a few experiences similar to Loudmouth_Mormon's, and can testify to the soundness of the experiment- although it can only be successfully tested after someone has received that living testimony of CHRIST. And those who have stated that all the convincing evidence can only be measured internally (in the soul) by individuals and does not exist externally (in the world) to be measured empiracally are correct as well.

There are different manifestations of the Holy Ghost: the 'burning in the bosom' is the most common and usually the first manifestation felt. It testifies of all truth, and testifies most strongly of JESUS CHRIST and the Book of Mormon. There are at least two other major physical sensations brought on by the Holy Ghost: the 'cold chill' and the 'electric shock'. The 'cold chill' is a sensation similar to when a frigid draft is blowing and produces a quick shivering sensation, and is a testimony that the Holy Ghost is aware of your actions and approves of them. The 'electric shock' often accompanies acute spiritual experiences (Brigham Young would sometimes feel this 'electric shock' the moments he would begin speaking in tongues).

Offer your nephew advice as is appropriate, and encourage his parents to do the same (if they are members). If your nephew is elect, he will eventually overcome his crisis. Whatever the outcome, continuing to show concern as you have will benefit you both greatly.

Good luck and GOD bless!

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I think evidence has come forth in the last 20 years that certain spiritual people have an actual genetic marker for spirituality. This marker is called a midi-chlorian, and can be measured in the blood with the appropriate equipment. Chinese scientist Qui Gon Jinn stated that he has found the equipment to be extremely reliable in detecting midi-chlorian markers in children. They vary in individuals from virtually non-existent to amounts that are large enough to determine that the child will undoubtedly grow up to be the next religious Billy Graham or Pope.

Of course there are studies that show that religious people tend to be happier, live longer, etc.

Church-goers tend to be happier, study says - Health - Behavior - msnbc.com

Is God an Anti-Depressant? - ABC News

Actually midiclorians (as per George Lucas )is a microscopic life forms in all matter that the Jedi, and Sith are able to manipulate. This is what allows them to use the force. :jedi:

The "God gene" is thought to be VMAT2,

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I think evidence has come forth in the last 20 years that certain spiritual people have an actual genetic marker for spirituality. This marker is called a midi-chlorian, and can be measured in the blood with the appropriate equipment. Chinese scientist Qui Gon Jinn stated that he has found the equipment to be extremely reliable in detecting midi-chlorian markers in children. They vary in individuals from virtually non-existent to amounts that are large enough to determine that the child will undoubtedly grow up to be the next religious Billy Graham or Pope.

For lack of a laugh button-

:lol::animatedlol::lol:

:roflmbo:

Gotta love that Qui Gon Jinn.

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A nephew of mine is experiencing a crisis of faith, and questioning his testimony. At issue is whether we at times condition ourselves to react to emotional issues then convince ourselves that it is the spirit, particularly in regard to personal revelation. Are there actually physiological reactions to spiritual promptings that are not emotional reactions? I have looked on LDS.com, and have not been able to find any articles that address that specific point. I know that both President Eyring and his father have an education founded in science, but have not been able to find any articles that address this either. Just wondered if anyone could point me in a direction to look further.

All things that we experience have to tie into the physical on some level. So it is possible to imitate to various extents spiritual experiences.

As with any type of research or work, if you want to get reliable results you have to work things over and over for a period of time. Unlike a lot of science you have to pay attention to your feelings quite a bit more.

We are told that we need to follow christ with all of our heart, might, and mind- if we slack off in any of those we can get skewed and off track... and we have to use the same for finding him.

If you really want to know whether something is of God or of man, live it.. then a year or two later look back and see how things were.

I've had experiences, that far as I can tell could be simulated or replicated by drugs, or some sort of extreme conditioning / stress conditioning(at least somewhat based on how i've heard people describe experiences under such, however I don't have much drug influence for personal experience in that matter).

The problem is is when they happened to me I did not have severe problems or mental stress at the time (whether caused by problems or by an extreme want of something), nor did i have drugs, nor were there drugs present in anything i could find, and as I had a catscan recently before then and was given a clean bill of health on my brain, so I can't say it was due to some imbalance or deformity of the brain... Especially how my friend also had the same experience in the room but no one else next to us did.

Edited by Blackmarch
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I recommend you read Time Magazine of October 25, 2004, in which the lead article was titled The God Gene.

Religion: Is God in Our Genes? - TIME

The article describes a number of bona fide scientific experiments aimed at answering the question you have raised. They identify a specific gene which they believe is responsible for generating the chemicals in the brain that produce the feeling that we label as spirituality.

A google search on the phrase "god gene" wil turn up many more leads that you might find interesting. I also recommend a google search using the combined terms spirituality brain scan and also neurotheology.

There has been an abundance of reported reliable research in recent years exploring the notion that recordable and measurable physiological changes take place in the brain while a person is engaged in, or undergoing, a religious activity.

There was a well known study done, I think in 2004, in which brain scans were performed on Carmelite nuns while they reflected on the memory of an intense spiritual experience. You can read about the report here Nuns prove God is not figment of the mind - Telegraph

There is also a wikipedia article for the god gene. Following are a few sentences from that article:

The God gene hypothesis is based on a combination of behavioral genetic, neurobiological and psychological studies. The major arguments of the theory are: (1) spirituality can be quantified by psychometric measurements; (2) the underlying tendency to spirituality is partially heritable; (3) part of this heritability can be attributed to the gene VMAT2;[1] (4) this gene acts by altering monoamine levels; and (5) spirituality arises in a population because spiritual individuals are favored by natural selection.

The articles discusses both the idea of a god gene and the opposing views and contains several references.

Hope this helps, I'll be very interested to read your response.

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If the existence of the "god gene" is verified, does that invalidate spiritual witnesses given to us by the Holy Ghost (as in testifying to the truth of the Book of Mormon)?

What do you think, questioning_seeker?

Hi Matthew

No, I don't think it invalidates spiritual witnesses, it might simply be an explanation of how spiritual witnesses are received. Everything God does is accomplished through physical laws and physical means, we just haven't discovered them all yet. It seems like the discovery of the god gene might open the window just a little into one aspect of how God creates spiritual feelings in His children.

It would be a fascinating line of inquiry to consider what physical acts take place between God and the god gene to turn that gene on and off, or, put anothre way, to consider what it is that God does and how He does it, to make that gene stop and start secreting the chemicals that result in a feeling of spirituality.

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The answer to your nephew's question is that we most certainly can mistake emotion for the spirit (actually President Hunter warned against equating the spirit with strong emotion for precisely that pitfall).

Ayup. The most prolific "testimony criers" I can remember growing up with, are almost all inactive now--some of them, rather brazenly so.

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No, I don't think it invalidates spiritual witnesses, it might simply be an explanation of how spiritual witnesses are received. Everything God does is accomplished through physical laws and physical means, we just haven't discovered them all yet. It seems like the discovery of the god gene might open the window just a little into one aspect of how God creates spiritual feelings in His children.

It would be a fascinating line of inquiry to consider what physical acts take place between God and the god gene to turn that gene on and off, or, put anothre way, to consider what it is that God does and how He does it, to make that gene stop and start secreting the chemicals that result in a feeling of spirituality.

Good- this is the kind of answer I was hoping to hear.

So long as you keep in mind that greater knowledge of the processes by which GOD works does not invalidate said processes, you'll be fine and may be priveleged to learn some very precious information to your edification.

The reason I asked was to guage whether you were moving to suggest that the "God gene" gives us reason to cast off our faith. I'm glad you don't see it that way. :D

Another question that I'd be interested to know one day- how much of Joseph Smith's DNA comprised of this "God-gene" and other similar genes? Fascinating subject...

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Gooday Matthew

From the little I've looked at, the so called god gene seems linked to feelings of spirituality. I think Joseph Smith's accomplishments are more an indication of the strength of his faith rather than his level of spirituality. Of course he was tremendously faithful and spiritual, and yes, possibly he would have had an enlarged god gene but I suspect that faith may come from a different gene.

An interesting question this raises is whether, now that this gene has been discovered, and if it is indeed true, does God still have exclusive access to the operation of that gene, or is it now accessible, and subject to manipulation by, man-made means? Or, put another way, can man-made technology induce the feelings of the spirit?

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