Jesus

[JessicaHarper]

The question I will ultimately get to is regarding Jesus. Just, work with me...please.

Question 1.

Was God the Father once a man, on a prior "earth", who progressed to Godhood?

[Guest jengilbrat]

That quote "as man is God once was, and as God is, man may become," comes to mind. Making me say yes, but please clarify if I'm wrong.....anyone?

[JessicaHarper]

That quote and also, JS, in the Follett Discourse, makes reference to God once being a man (I believe). I am just trying to understand something, and want to make sure I am understanding correcting...in the LDS view.

[hordak]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

Gospel Principles Chapter 47: Exaltation

[JessicaHarper]

Thank you!

Gospel Principles Chapter 47: Exaltation

[JessicaHarper]

"This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). "

This brings me to my next question.

When did Jesus become God? After his life, death and resurection?

[Just_A_Guy]

"This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). "

This brings me to my next question.

When did Jesus become God? After his life, death and resurection?

The more I think about it, the hairier that question gets.

Suffice it to say: Jesus (a.k.a. Jehovah) had nearly all the powers and responsibilities of a God, from before the creation of the world.

See also, this LDS Church statement from 1916.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[Matthew0059]

"This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). "

This brings me to my next question.

When did Jesus become God? After his life, death and resurection?

The answer to your question depends on the definition of "GOD" you are using.

And this line of questioning can quickly get far beyond the knowledge that has been revealed to the world at large. It almost already has.

[JessicaHarper]

The more I think about it, the hairier that question gets.

Suffice it to say: Jesus (a.k.a. Jehovah) had nearly all the powers and responsibilities of a God, from before the creation of the world.

See also, this LDS Church statement from 1916.

So, would that mean Jesus progressed to Godhood in the pre-existence?

[JessicaHarper]

The answer to your question depends on the definition of "GOD" you are using.

And this line of questioning can quickly get far beyond the knowledge that has been revealed to the world at large. It almost already has.

I am speaking of the God of the Bible. God, not god, or gods. If the Father was not born God, rather he had to progress to that point, that would lead one to believe (if everything follows a pattern) that Christ would also have had to progress to Godhood.

[Just_A_Guy]

So, would that mean Jesus progressed to Godhood in the pre-existence?

If you mean Godhood in the traditional Christian sense, then yes: it would have been during the pre-existence that Jesus progressed to a point where He could do all the things we see Him doing as Jehovah in the Old Testament.

If you mean Godhood in the Mormon sense, then the answer is "mostly". Because while He could act as Jehovah and had the power and authority of God the Father placed upon Him (and, indeed, was called "God" and was properly worshipped as such by the Israelites), He still did not possess a physical body like the Father has. Jesus could save all the spirits created by the Father, but was not yet capable of creating new Spirits Himself.

[Matthew0059]

I am speaking of the God of the Bible. God, not god, or gods. If the Father was not born God, rather he had to progress to that point, that would lead one to believe (if everything follows a pattern) that Christ would also have had to progress to Godhood.

JEHOVAH, also known as JESUS CHRIST, was anointed to be the Savior and GOD of this world before its creation began. HE has always been the GOD of the Bible.

I agree with JAG's explanation of the difference between the nature of CHRIST'S godhood before and after HIS mortal life.

[JessicaHarper]

clear as mud?

Exactly.

[bytebear]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

This quote is a bit misleading. It comes from the King Follett Discourse and is often used to accuse Mormonism of believing in a finite nature of God.

But in the very same discourse Joseph Smith also said:

I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. AS THE LORD LIVETH, IF IT HAD A BEGINNING, IT WILL HAVE AN END. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say the spirit of man had a beginning, PROVE that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true.

Reflect that onto the nature of God and you see that God has no beginning, and therefore has always been God, because He will always be God, and that which has no end has no beginning.

So, was Smith teaching that God was finite? Or was he teaching that Man is infinite?

[Blackmarch]

The question I will ultimately get to is regarding Jesus. Just, work with me...please.

Question 1.

Was God the Father once a man, on a prior "earth", who progressed to Godhood?

christ said that he does what he sees his father do... so if we take a literal projection from that we can infer that God did the same things that christ did.

However that is an inference (but one that makes sense to me).

[Gramajane]

What does this mean to you -- considering the question you asked?

#

John 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

[mikbone]

I am speaking of the God of the Bible. God, not god, or gods. If the Father was not born God, rather he had to progress to that point, that would lead one to believe (if everything follows a pattern) that Christ would also have had to progress to Godhood.

I agree with your statement. And I believe it. Although there are many Mormons that do not. The Genesis and evolution of Elohim (or abscense thereof) is not required for our exaltation.

That being said... Based on John 5:19 and the fact that Jehovah is the Firstborn in the Spirit. We can make a few assumptions.

1) Before anyone in our Pre-mortal existance was organized as a spirit, Jehovah had been.

2) We do not know how long Jehovah pre-dates the organization of our souls, but I believe that the time differential was VAST.

3) Jehovah (John 5:19) wittnessed Elohim produce an atonement. I am convinced that no one else that resided within our pre-mortal existence had knowledge of that event.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

May offer an alternative?

What if Jesus was always God?

[Blackmarch]

May offer an alternative?

What if Jesus was always God?

This hinges on the concept of what "God" is.

[Traveler]

The question I will ultimately get to is regarding Jesus. Just, work with me...please.

Question 1.

Was God the Father once a man, on a prior "earth", who progressed to Godhood?

Because man is fallen all that we know about the Father comes to us from the Mediator with the Father, Jesus Christ. Thus Jesus is the example of G-d to us as mortal men and women. As the example of G-d, Jesus demonstrates how a G-d must be man to fulfill his love and compassion for the salvation of others. In fact we come to know that such is necessary for the salvation of man.

If, for any reason, anyone believes that Jesus is not the example of G-d the Father in his taking upon him what it is to be "man" then I believe it is the obligation of those that believe Jesus is "different" to explain how and from where they got their information.

The Traveler

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

This hinges on the concept of what "God" is.

God is.

[Traveler]

God is.

Are you implying that everything that is - is also G-d and equal to G-d and the same as G-d? If not then your logic is incomplete. The question at hand is - what? What is G-d? To answer that man has done more harm to each other than over any other question in dispute in all of written history.

The Traveler

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Are you implying that everything that is - is also G-d and equal to G-d and the same as G-d? If not then your logic is incomplete. The question at hand is - what? What is G-d? To answer that man has done more harm to each other than over any other question in dispute in all of written history.

The Traveler

I will rephrase then. If we asked God, "What are You?" He would probably answer, "I am." God is the only thing that always was, is, and will always be. And no, everything else need not be co-equal to Him in any way.

Why do you conclude that if Jesus is a man, and we humans are flesh and blood, that God must be also?