Joseph Smith-Questions and concerns

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG, I'm confused by this. Would you please explain it further?

Elph

I guess, to put it another way: I don't see the role of LDS apologetics (including, but not limited to, history) as being to "prove" Mormonism true. I see it as simply showing that Mormonism cannot be proved untrue, and thereby leaving the seeker open-minded enough to hear whatever God Himself has to say about Mormonism.

Does that make sense?

[Palerider]

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

Question....what should or how should someone live that is a prophet???

guidlines????

[slamjet]

i've been sober for 6 years now. God is good!

I ask because in my experience, those who are sober for a few years or under are very heavily into praising God out in the open. They're on a "sobriety high" for lack of a better word. They do this because they're overcoming such a strong pull with their addiction that they need this to balance out the overwhelming tempation that's out to ruin their sobriety.

After a few years, they tend to come down to a balance between God and life. In other words, they become more practical and balanced in their language and actions on the way they approach and interact with God and other people.

You don't seem to have that balance as of yet. So either you are still heavily struggling, or you are not sober as long as you say. Just my observation from experience.

[bytor2112]

i've been sober for 6 years now. God is good!

Me too.

[bytor2112]

also I want to say this. I've stumbled upon a lot of information on this site. things like if you reveal certain things to me then my blood will be on your hands if I don't accept the church.

Huh?

[SteveVH]

I guess, to put it another way: I don't see the role of LDS apologetics (including, but not limited to, history) as being to "prove" Mormonism true. I see it as simply showing that Mormonism cannot be proved untrue, and thereby leaving the seeker open-minded enough to hear whatever God Himself has to say about Mormonism.

Does that make sense?

Is not the purpose of apologetics to defend your faith? Leaving people to prove a negative has never impressed me, nor would it motivate me to learn more. Instead it makes me wonder why you can't prove it.

If I told you that Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Issac and Jacob visited me last night in my bedroom and told me to inform the LDS church that they were now to follow me, could you prove that what I claimed was untrue? Because you could not prove it untrue would you follow me? I would hope not. :)

[pam]

Nope I wouldn't follow you as you don't hold any revelatory authority or stewardship over me.

[john doe]

(for the mods)

and FYI...check my profile. My religion is set to CHRISTIAN now, for those of you that were really concerned.

also I want to say this. I've stumbled upon a lot of information on this site. things like if you reveal certain things to me then my blood will be on your hands if I don't accept the church.

so you might wanna think twice before banning me!

can you tell the mod upset me a bit???

Now you're just being silly. Before replying again, I highly suggest you read the site rules, a link to which can be found at the top of this page. Please pay extra attention to rules #1 and #6, which you are pushing the limits on already.

And if a warning to keep your posts within the rules really upsets you that much, you probably should seek the help of a professional in the mental health field. You may just be too emotionally fragile to interact with us, or anyone on the internet for that matter.

[Just_A_Guy]

Is not the purpose of apologetics to defend your faith? Leaving people to prove a negative has never impressed me, nor would it motivate me to learn more. Instead it makes me wonder why you can't prove it.

Faith, by definition, cannot be proven.

I'm always interested by the members of one church or another who imply that their own religion is empirically "provable". How does one prove to an agnostic that a guy whose existence isn't even archaeologically verifiable, came back from the dead three days after his execution?

If I told you that Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Issac and Jacob visited me last night in my bedroom and told me to inform the LDS church that they were now to follow me, could you prove that what I claimed was untrue? Because you could not prove it untrue would you follow me? I would hope not. :)

Certainly I couldn't disprove it. So my only choice would be to go to God myself and ask what He says about your claims.

Fundamentally, that's what Mormonism asks you to do: Go to God and find out for yourself.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

Leaving people to prove a negative has never impressed me, nor would it motivate me to learn more.

Same here.

If I told you that Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Issac and Jacob visited me last night in my bedroom and told me to inform the LDS church that they were now to follow me, could you prove that what I claimed was untrue? Because you could not prove it untrue would you follow me?

No and no.

The thing you're missing here, is that we aren't LDS because Joseph Smith set us up to prove a negative, and we're all too dumb to know what that means, so we became Mormon. That is not what is going on here.

Our scriptures expressly spell out a series of steps one should take, in order to get an unmistakable witness from God that the incredible claims of Joseph and the BoM are true. This witness, is what we call 'recieving a testimony'.

It's not that nobody can prove it false. It's that God tells us it's true. Quite a difference, yes?

LM

[bytebear]

Awesome viewpoints, and thank you for you're response!

As far as claiming to be a biblical prophet...I go back to deuteronomy. A prophet can be judged by his/her prophecies. If any prophecies are not fulfilled, then they are proven to be a false prophet.

now don't get my wrong, I'm not bashing or claiming joseph was false. just letting you get inside my mind here for a minute.

now with that, you have several different type of prophecies. Some that speak specific dates, some open-ended, etc. There are hundreds of biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, and are continued to be fulfilled as the age we live in.

my concern, a few of Josephs prophecies that were specific, that when the time came, were not fulfilled.

I do believe in the GIFT of prophecy, as it talks about in the NT. But I believe that is a gift for more than just one person, as I have seen.

Just being honest with you, in the most respectful way, Im having trouble believing that one man hears God for the whole church. I believe that if I need direction, I can go directly to God and ask, and he'll answer (or speak). For Guidance and direction I use the bible...I've never had a situation where I couldn't turn to God's word and find the resolution.

I'll shut up now lol thats just a lil bit of my thoughts when thinking of joining the church.

Again, I mean this with ALL respect. I'm not a basher, if this church is true...(i think i said this before)I want to know and want in!

I don't think Deuteronomy is a valid point of reference for defining a prophet any more than it is in defining punishment for sin. You have to look at the pattern the Bible uses in the leaders of God's people. There are just too many examples in the Bible of fallible prophets and unfulfilled prophecies. The problem with this kind of arguing is that it puts the defender of this position at a major disadvantage. If I start "disproving" the prophecies of the Bible, then suddenly I become anti-Bible, and the other side will use that against me.

So, I would rather say that there is a pattern in the Bible of God's people losing their way, and God calling a leader to bring back the truth. Joseph Smith is just the last of a long line of men who have brought forth truth and shaken up the established understanding of how to interpret the purposes God has for us.

[jayanna]

thanks so much for your response. a lot of that does make sense, big time!

here's my question though. NT people like Peter, Paul, etc are different when referring to OT prophets. Peter and Paul taught truth. They preached Jesus and his teachings. If that is what the LDS means as to a prophet...weren't there more than one prophet in the NT?

if there was more than one... (peter, paul, luke, john, etc.) why must there be just 1 today?

just a curious thought :)

For one thing, we use the King James version of the Bible, any references and corrections to the translation of it are put into the footnotes, so that we can study them out for ourselves...so when you read the King James Bible, you are reading our Bible.

Secondly, yes, all of the apostles are also prophets, just as they were in the New Testament. The head, or lead apostle, Peter, had all of the keys of the priesthood, which Jesus gave to him. In these days, all of the apostles are also prophets, including Pres. Thomas S. Monson, though the head or lead apostle is the only one to possess all of the keys of the priesthood, which were the same ones given to Peter, thus making him the person we refer to as 'the' Prophet' because the is the one prophet who has been given all of the keys of the priesthood on the earth at this time.

Thirdly, your blood will never, ever, ever be on my hands, I don't know where you got that foul interpretation, I sincerely doubt it was on this website as you claim.

If you want to read a good book,' A Marvelous Work and a Wonder' would be a good choice.

And if you really do have family members in the church, aren't their actions, including their love for you, evidence enough that this is not the work of the destroyer? Didn't the Lord say, "By this shall men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another?"

If we seem sensitive, perhaps it is because you seem accusatory rather than inquisitory.

[Blackmarch]

Ok, so my family has really been ministering to me about LDS. So I'm digging, looking for answers, truth, if there is some.

Let me lay out a general thinking idea that I wan't viewpoints on.

Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 188. He said, "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground."

"If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried buy the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures."

So with that reference in place...so it seems to be that as long as you prove Joseph Smith to be legit then keep exploring into the depths of the foundings and doctrines.

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

NOT BASHING or DEBATING!!! I for real and searching out truth.

So there ya go, BOMBS away lol

unfortunately Joseph smith is not around anymore, and you can find hundreds of thousands of stories about him painiting him from the holiest of holy to the vilest of evil. However,He has left something that is testable- That is the Book of Mormon.

[RipplecutBuddha]

What also needs said at this point, is that Joseph was not seeking to be a prophet. He was seeking the true church of Christ. The most poigniant verse that stood out to him was James 1:5. I'll quote it here, along with verses 6-8;

5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7. For let not that man think that he shall recieve any thing of the Lord.

8. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

In other words, it was the inspired words of a recognized man of God from the NT that inspired Joseph Smith to proceed with what he said was his first attempt to pray vocally in his life at the age of 14. The interesting thing to remember is that the advice given from LDS leaders from Joseph Smith to Thomas S. Monson, who is the recognized prophet today, remains exactly that which James gave so many centuries ago.

So long as the examination of Joseph as a prophet of God remains the purview of human rationale, historical records, and human attempts at gaining the entire picture, you will never reach a moment of facts beyond a reasonable doubt.

There will always be aspects of Joseph's life that will cast shadows upon his claims. He even said the angel Moroni told him his "name would be had for good and evil among all nations."

However, if you do as James directs from the Bible, and God tells you Joseph Smith was indeed His chosen prophet, then all the issues that cast doubt beforehand will begin to be resolved.

In asking us to demonstrate how Joseph was a prophet, you're asking us to do something God can do for you far more effectively. Seek the truth from God himself. He won't lie to you at any time.

Edited March 14, 2011 by RipplecutBuddha
spell check

[apexviper13]

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

NOT BASHING or DEBATING!!! I for real and searching out truth.

So there ya go, BOMBS away lol

You mean like how Joseph Smith gave a prophecy in 1832 that there would be a war within the US and then we have a Civil War in 1861? Specifically, Joseph Smith said the war would start from a rebellion from South Carolina which ended up being the start of the Civil War. Joseph Smith also gave a prophecy of his own death. He didn't say how it would happen but he knew he would be murdered. Joseph Smith gave prophecy Stephen A. Douglas would aspire (not the same as being part of) to presidency. If he spoke against the Latter-Day Saints he, Douglas, would feel the weight of the Almighty. Years later, Stephen Douglas was nominated to presidency of the US by the Democratic Convention. 3 years earlier he had spoken badly about the Latter-Day Saints. It goes like this in order: prophecy of Mr. Douglas aspiring to presidency but would feel the weight of the Almighty before he died if he spoke against the Latter-Day Saints, spoke against the Latter-Day Saints years later in 1857, was aspired to presidency by nomination of the Democratic Convention, lost, then died about a year later.

LDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet

[Obolus]

unfortunately Joseph smith is not around anymore, and you can find hundreds of thousands of stories about him painiting him from the holiest of holy to the vilest of evil. However,He has left something that is testable- That is the Book of Mormon.

This is the best answer. If you want to investigate Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon and confront the Lord in faith & humility. If a religion has a unique scriptural text that is widely available, that is the place to start. Everything else is really just beating around the bush.

[mordorbund]

I'm a bit suprised this thread has gone on for 5 pages answering only vague questions/concerns.

So with that reference in place...so it seems to be that as long as you prove Joseph Smith to be legit then keep exploring into the depths of the foundings and doctrines.

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

Would you care to be more specific as to what exactly doesn't reflect his status as prophet?

As far as claiming to be a biblical prophet...I go back to deuteronomy. A prophet can be judged by his/her prophecies. If any prophecies are not fulfilled, then they are proven to be a false prophet.

now don't get my wrong, I'm not bashing or claiming joseph was false. just letting you get inside my mind here for a minute.

my concern, a few of Josephs prophecies that were specific, that when the time came, were not fulfilled.

I do believe in the GIFT of prophecy, as it talks about in the NT. But I believe that is a gift for more than just one person, as I have seen.

What prophecies have you found that weren't fulfilled?

no disrespect intended...but the more I read holy scripture....the more I see conflicts [between Paul's "gospel" and LDS "gospel" - mordorbund].

I know that the belief is that bible is only accurate as to translated corretly by lds members.

But I feel I have a very understanding knowledge to the bible, in both history and factual events.

Just my 2-cents. Again, no disrespect intended. Just letting ya inside my mind

What are these conflicts?

thanks so much for your response. a lot of that does make sense, big time!

here's my question though. NT people like Peter, Paul, etc are different when referring to OT prophets. Peter and Paul taught truth. They preached Jesus and his teachings. If that is what the LDS means as to a prophet...weren't there more than one prophet in the NT?

if there was more than one... (peter, paul, luke, john, etc.) why must there be just 1 today?

just a curious thought :)

Finally, a specific question. I think you've gotten some good answers to this (and I think the answers are good because the question is specific).

If you would clarify your uneasiness with your concerns, they can be addressed a lot more easily. And sometimes it's the case that once you've identified what exactly about it makes you uneasy, you see for yourself that it really shouldn't be a big deal.

[Madriglace]

Many of the prophecies that Joseph Smith made were predicated upon the faith and obedience of the people ... when the people failed to do their part the prophecy became null and void. The mess with the bank comes to mind. The people were told that if they lived righteously (paraphrasing here) that the bank would prosper and so would they ... they didn't and so it didn't. Cause and effect.

[lucidlife]

You have a valid point! Joseph Smith was human much like the rest of us and had things in his life that could cause for questioning, but his heart was pure. He was a prophet or he wasn't, he either saw God or he didn't. There is is no half way when it comes to Mormons. Mormons are either the biggest fraud in the world or they are the only True church. When question arise I revert back to one thing THE BOOK OF MORMON. There is no way Joseph Smith could have written that book. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and know it is true therefore everything else falls into place. Since the Book of Mormon is true Joseph Smith is a prophet it is the Keystone to our religion. Jeffrey R Holland gave a fantastic Talk

* October 2009 Sessions

* Safety for the Soul

Elder Holland lays it out perfectly and it is the Voice of a Modern Day prophet.

[heatwaveo8]

One thing you might be missing... based on your research, have you tried making a conclusive decision for yourself first before asking God about it? That's the real key to receiving answers.

Think about it this way: once we know what the truth is, we know it forever. It is engrained into our soul, and how we follow up on the answers we have received will be accounted for at judgment. So God will want to ensure that you would be willing to act on the answer you get before giving it to you. You show him that willingness by studying it out and making a decision for yourself first.

Hope this helps.

[johncyrus]

The Validity of the restored gospel fall to Joseph smith you either believe him or not.

[Anonymouse]

Just being honest with you, in the most respectful way, Im having trouble believing that one man hears God for the whole church. I believe that if I need direction, I can go directly to God and ask, and he'll answer (or speak). For Guidance and direction I use the bible...I've never had a situation where I couldn't turn to God's word and find the resolution.

I'll shut up now lol thats just a lil bit of my thoughts when thinking of joining the church.

First of all, not everyone, even in what we profess is the only true church is perfect. Some are quick to judgement, as many have been towards you. Please be patient with them.

I believe that you are misinterpreting some of our beliefs. All people are entitled to personal revelation for themselves, but only one (the prophet) can receive revelation for the entire church. This is because of false prophets who professed to teach for the entire church, but their intent was to destroy the work. Doctrine and Covenants 43 explains this in further detail. If you would like to read it, you can find it here: Doctrine and Covenants 45  .

Particularly read verses 5-7. Hopefully this will be beneficial in your search for the truth. =)

[Suzie]

My concern is this...that there seem to be a lot of things concerning Joseph Smith that doesn't exactly reflect his status as a prophet.

He was a MAN. Just like President Monson IS and ALL the GA(despite the fact that some members may perceive them somewhat as near perfect). He had weaknesses, shortcomings, faults, mistakes just like ANY other man as well as wonderful qualities.