Touched by an Angel

[Jamie123]

My wife an I usually watch an episode of Touched by an Angel before we go to sleep every night. She really believes in angels, but I don't see a lot of evidence for them.

If there are angels, God seems very selective about where he sends them. Why weren't angels rushing to stop the 9/11 planes, or to hold back the tsunamis and earthquakes or stop Gaddafi bombing his own people? The sort of stuff Monica says she did when she was in "Search and Rescue".

I'm sure God's got a very good excuse. Maybe it's because (like Tess says) people would start confusing angels with superheroes, and not learn any lessons. But I wonder what kind of lessons the people killed by the exploding nuclear plants are going to learn?

You'd think if God was really good, he'd use his omnipotence a bit better. Or maybe there is no God, and the human race is just a chemical accident on one tiny speck of cosmic dust.

Bit depressing really...

Edited March 14, 2011 by Jamie123
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[Dravin]

But I wonder what kind of lessons the people killed by the exploding nuclear plants are going to learn?

Who says the lesson's for them? That said I don't think God is sending angels all over the place to turn alcoholics around or on search and rescue missions. It happens but by and large he uses us for such things.

You'd think if God was really good, he'd use his omnipotence a bit better.

The is less of an issue for LDS due to the strong emphasis on agency*. Such thinking basically wants God to save us from the choices and agency of others, which sounds great, but is essentially a denial of their agency. Same with a life without any trials or tribulations, it sounds fantastic, we'd probably be very content to live such, but once again as LDS our purpose on this life is to grow and develop to hopefully be like our Father in Heaven, as with muscle, spiritual abilities don't grow unless they are exercised. How does one exercise charity and sacrifice in a world where nobody suffers or needs the help of others? This ties back into agency if one wants to argue for limiting the worst of it.

Now I know this is a LDS perspective (and more specifically my LDS perspective) so it is operating off of premises you don't necessarily agree with. If it's any consolation the "problem of evil" is a issue that more than one theologian has pondered on.

* We also tend to have a different take on omnipotence, or at least I do.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Dravin

[Blackmarch]

My wife an I usually watch an episode of Touched by an Angel before we go to sleep every night. She really believes in angels, but I don't see a lot of evidence for them.

If there are angels, God seems very selective about where he sends them. Why weren't angels rushing to stop the 9/11 planes, or to hold back the tsunamis and earthquakes or stop Gaddafi bombing his own people? The sort of stuff Monica says she did when she was in "Search and Rescue".

I'm sure God's got a very good excuse. Maybe it's because (like Tess says) people would start confusing angels with superheros, and not learn any lessons. But I wonder what kind of lessons the people killed by the exploding nuclear plants are going to learn?

You'd think if God was really good, he'd use his omnipotence a bit better. Or maybe there is no God, and the human race is just a chemical accident on one tiny speck of cosmic dust.

Bit depressing really...

Christ made it so that every person will live again. What level of catastrophe or evil can overcome that? That alone overbalances Good, against anything... with that alone God could be just without sending anything more, yet in his mercy he does.

Also angels are messengers of God, they do not necessarily have to be straight from heaven.

For everyone who grows there must come a point in which they are let on their own- and that is this life. God lets our actions consequences play out to the fullest extent- whether or not we decide to build a nuclear plant, work at one, whether we decide to obey the laws or not, and etc..

Yet even in such God influences us where we allow him to.

[rameumptom]

How do we know angels are not actively involved in our lives? Elder Gene R. Cook told me he could just imagine God and his angels holding up the two towers long enough for most people to make it down. The planes were not full, strange for a business day.

And in tragedy, we often see the miracles God will do. Perhaps there are angels seeking to touch people's lives, even if they cannot see the angels themselves.

Finally, God often has a greater purpose than protect us from earthly tragedy. He wants to save and exalt his children. How can we learn to rely on God, if we aren't given challenges and trials of our faith? How can we be exalted, if we never have anything to test our spiritual muscles?

Perhaps the angels come after the tragedy, in order to assist us through the trial.

I'm thinking that many of us on this list have either seen angels or felt their presence in difficult times. That isn't depressing. That's hope and faith.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Most of the things people want to see God or angels doing in our lives are things we are fully capable of doing ourselves. You want to see a decrease in drunk driving....get involved and put your heart into making a difference. I forget who said it....it might have been Ghandi; "Be the change you want to see in the world."

As for natural disasters, it's part of the world we live in, and God knew about them before he even began making this earth for us. We live in a world where merely being here means we'll die.

Death isn't really what matters in this world. It's how we treat each other before death takes us that matters.

As for God needing an excuse.....I can't begin to express how far off track that line of thought will take you. What God does is always the right thing. Just because we don't see his rationale at the time doesn't mean he needs to explain himself to us.

Or do you imagine an artist having to explain himself to the brush, the canvas, or the paint? Remember who is ultimately in control here and remember that He is striving in every way to bring us back to His presence. When we're not cooperative, it's hardly His fault.

Edited March 14, 2011 by RipplecutBuddha

[IAmTheWork]

I have experience of 'angels' as people call them, but you must believe what you will, as your reality is your reality. What our culture in general knows and says of them is so wrong as to be mind boggling. I will just say that you can find out for yourself though. And also, as others say, they are not here to 'save' us from everything, else there'd be no point in existing, would there..?

[Jamie123]

Or do you imagine an artist having to explain himself to the brush, the canvas, or the paint? Remember who is ultimately in control here and remember that He is striving in every way to bring us back to His presence. When we're not cooperative, it's hardly His fault.

Thanks. You're alluding to Romans 9, which is not a scripture I've ever really understood: To begin with, pots are not physically capable of talking back to the potter who made them. I'm sure that if some magic potter were to make sentient, self-aware pots they would have quite a lot to say about how he'd made them. And if he allowed a few evil pots to torture and torment the others, don't you think they'd have some cause to complain?

Secondly to use the paint/painter analogy, it would be a poor artist who'd excuse his bad work by saying: "Don't blame me! The brush, canvas and paint wouldn't cooperate!"

(P.S. Thanks Dravin, Blackmarch, Rameumptom and Iamthework for responding too. I don't meant to ignore u guys.)

Edited March 15, 2011 by Jamie123

[jayanna]

In Chapter 8 of 1st Nephi, there is a vision that is described that you can read about, it explains a lot about the tests we face here in this world.

One of the things in the vision that has helped me understand trials is the part that describes people holding onto the rod. They are clinging to it. They aren't just looking at it and considering it, they aren't lightly resting their hand on it, or even using it occasionally during the rough spots, they are clinging to it, as if their very lives depend on it, as if they know they will never make it without that rod. The rod represents the word of God.

Sometimes God lets the winds blow and the rains come so that we will cling tighter to that rod. If these things overcome us, and we die, what is the worst thing that can happen? We aren't gone forever, we return to Him, or we return to a state where we learn and progress so that we can return to Him. These terrible things that go on, and yes I've experienced some crazy bad stuff, only last a blink of an eye compared to the eternity where we will be with God.

and angels....they are us, we are the angels. When these tragedies happen, this is Him giving the rest of us a chance to be angels.

oh, and p.s. Someone told me that touched by an angel was filmed in SLC, is that true?

Edited March 17, 2011 by jayanna

[findingmyway]

Where were the angels when Jesus Christ was mocked, ridiculed , when he bled and hung on the cross. Why didnt the angels stop this, or even fight and save him. Because there is a plan. He has the perfect plan.

Imagine a father watching helpless , while his child is being tortured and then hung..... God loved the world to sent his son to suffer and die for us. Tragedies happen, quakes, tsunamis, bombings, 9/11, murders, a love one dies.... many blame God , not remembering that he is the Father of all those children. He loves every single one of his children.

Angels are everywhere..... most arent lighted up and see through.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

How do we know angels are not actively involved in our lives? Elder Gene R. Cook told me he could just imagine God and his angels holding up the two towers long enough for most people to make it down. The planes were not full, strange for a business day.

Billy Graham called angels "God's secret agents" and in a sense that's true. CIA agents are well aware that they can save the world but never get any credit for it. Angels are rather discreet and clandestine in the same way and their heroic works are often undisclosed.

If there are angels, God seems very selective about where he sends them. Why weren't angels rushing to stop the 9/11 planes, or to hold back the tsunamis and earthquakes or stop Gaddafi bombing his own people?

Since angels are merely an extention of God's power, this goes back to the age old question, "Why does God allow evil?" And one quick thing that should be pointed out is that he does step in and intervene from time to time. We live in a world ravaged by original sin where children every day die from diseases they did nothing to deserve. Some people are born with a disability, others are born in poor countries, still others aren't even born because of the perceived "right to choose". Wars happen and innocent civilians get caught in the crossfire, or starve because food becomes scarce. In a just world, people would pay individually for their own sins, but in this world, one sins and another suffers for it. But it's all a result of the choices we make.

If theoretically God were to say, "Humanity, I can take away all your suffering, disease, war, crime, tragedy, and heartbreak.....but in order to do so, I need to also take away your free will," humanity would collectively reject God's offer. For us, free will is our most prized possession even if it causes so much pain. "Let us retain freewill, God," people would say, "and we accept the price of freewill as well."

I have experience of 'angels' as people call them,

Me too. One time I was physically restrained, my forward momentum arrested as I pitched over a dangerous precipice which would have caused me great bodily harm. I'm very grateful to this day for that intervention.

[rex8499]

Wow, this brings back some memories. My family watched Touched by and Angel together all the time when I was young. I haven't seen an episode in at least 15 years.

[rameumptom]

We watch it occasionally on the Hallmark channel