Thoughts on the Nature of Advice and Confessions

[Wingnut]

But it seems that by going to the bishop, I risk the ability to take the sacrament. I risk being able to give a prayer in public, even though that may be the best thing for me on a road to repentance. I just think it seems risky to go to the bishop because you can be denied some of the very things you might need to get back on track.

Dravin put it well. It's not going to the bishop that risks these things. It's sinning that risks these things. Going to the bishop helps clear up the sin.

Also, unless you plan on violating covenants of chastity or killing someone, none of the above is likely to ever apply to you.

[Dravin]

Also, unless you plan on violating covenants of chastity or killing someone, none of the above is likely to ever apply to you.

I think the problem is that the advice forums are potentially giving her a false impression of things. Generally it's the people who are afraid of things like disfellowship or probation that come on here. So we're kinda self-selected for panic over the matter on the boards. Plenty more go and talk with their bishop and they aren't worried about probation or anything. I know when I reactivated probation or other action never entered my mind, and I was doing some stuff that some people come on here worried about.

Also, by and large we aren't willing to second guess the Bishop. We don't want to tell somebody there is no possibility of being put on probation and then have them go into their Bishop, receive such, and then feel like he was overly harsh based on the preconceptions we gave them*. So our comments tend to focus on, "Does it matter?" To help them see that even if they were to receive such (not that such is the most likely) the rewards of repentance are more higher than their fears are deep.

So I think she may think that:

1) Probation, Excommunication, or Disfellowship are extremely common (honestly I have no clue how common they are)

2) That whenever LDS sin their first thought is, "Could I be put on probation/disfellowshiped/excommunicated?"

* There are just to many unknowns about what people are doing and I don't feel like interrogating them to know exactly what they did and where they are in the repentance process. And even if I did know, I am not entitled to receive revelation over how best to get them on the road to repentance or if on it, how to complete it.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Dravin

[MorningStar]

I wanted to clarify that excommunication doesn't mean you can't come to church. The intention is for the person to fully repent and be baptized again.

[Soulsearcher]

The difference I see is that after confession I am forgiven my sins and go to Mass and receive communion. There is no system of forbidding people from attending Mass. I'm a bit rusty here regarding communion; I suppose if you were a priest fooling around with children, there might be some communion issues, but for most folks, after confession you can take communion.

Just a point to remember, the Catholic church does have excommunication though its become much harder to be excommunicated in the church

Catholic encyclopedia says...

Excommunication (Latin ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion — exclusion from the communion), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence. It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness. It necessarily, therefore, contemplates the future, either to prevent the recurrence of certain culpable acts that have grievous external consequences, or, more especially, to induce the delinquent to satisfy the obligations incurred by his offence. Its object and its effect are loss of communion, i.e. of the spiritual benefits shared by all the members of Christian society; hence, it can affect only those who by baptism have been admitted to that society. Undoubtedly there can and do exist other penal measures which entail the loss of certain fixed rights; among them are other censures, e.g. suspension for clerics, interdict for clerics and laymen, irregularity ex delicto, etc. Excommunication, however, is clearly distinguished from these penalties in that it is the privation of all rights resulting from the social status of the Christian as such. The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced; he can, however, be considered as an exile from Christian society and as non-existent, for a time at least, in the sight of ecclesiastical authority. But such exile can have an end (and the Church desires it), as soon as the offender has given suitable satisfaction. Meanwhile, his status before the Church is that of a stranger. He may not participate in public worship nor receive the Body of Christ or any of the sacraments. Moreover, if he be a cleric, he is forbidden to administer a sacred rite or to exercise an act of spiritual authority.

[MorningStar]

I think the problem is that the advice forums are giving her a false impression of things. Generally it's the people who are afraid of things like disfellowship or probation that come on here. So we're kinda self-selected for panic over the matter on the boards. Plenty more go and talk with their bishop and they aren't worried about probation or anything. I know when I reactivated probation or other action never entered my mind, and I was doing some stuff that some people come on here worried about.

Also, by and large we aren't willing to second guess the Bishop. We don't want to tell somebody there is no possibility of being put on probation and then have them go into their Bishop, receive such, and then feel like he was overly harsh based on the preconceptions we gave them*. So our comments tend to focus on, "Does it matter?" To help them see that even if they were to receive such (not that such is the most likely) the rewards of repentance are more higher than their fears are deep.

So I think she may think that:

1) Probation, Excommunication, or Disfellowship are extremely common (honestly I have no clue how common they are)

2) That whenever LDS sin their first thought is, "Could I be put on probation/disfellowshiped/excommunicated?"

* There are just to many unknowns about what people are doing and I don't feel like interrogating them to know exactly what they did and where they are in the repentance process. And even if I did know, I am no entitled to receive revelation over how best to get them on the road to repentance or if on it, how to complete it.

I think what people fear the most isn't the discipline itself, but people knowing about it. This woman in my ward called me and asked, "Do you know what's going on with so and so? I noticed him not taking the sacrament." It really shocked me that there are people who do that.

I said, "First of all, it's none of your business. Second, why don't you have your thoughts on your own sins during the sacrament? Why are you looking around for who's not taking it?" She said, "Well, I just accidentally saw ......" Yeah, whatever. That is just so lame. The person feels bad enough not taking the sacrament. They don't need others speculating about why they're not taking it. She tried to justify it by thinking maybe she could offer support to the wife, but still, that's way lame.

It's hard, but we have to learn not to care about what people think about us. I think the people that matter won't judge you anyway.

[Jennarator]

I think what people fear the most isn't the discipline itself, but people knowing about it. This woman in my ward called me and asked, "Do you know what's going on with so and so? I noticed him not taking the sacrament." It really shocked me that there are people who do that.

I said, "First of all, it's none of your business. Second, why don't you have your thoughts on your own sins during the sacrament? Why are you looking around for who's not taking it?" She said, "Well, I just accidentally saw ......" Yeah, whatever. That is just so lame. The person feels bad enough not taking the sacrament. They don't need others speculating about why they're not taking it. She tried to justify it by thinking maybe she could offer support to the wife, but still, that's way lame.

It's hard, but we have to learn not to care about what people think about us. I think the people that matter won't judge you anyway.

It's sad when people stoop that low!

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Excommunications should be rare indeed. It's like working at a company that fires a lot of people. It may start with a few bad apples that really should be fired, but then it progresses to those employees who are just difficult at times. Soon the management doesn't even try to work with people in a remedial sense and many good quality employees are let go. I think it says a lot about a church when it takes its most difficult members and labors to work with them and rehabilitate them...or at least have a little more tolerance...rather than having an itchy trigger finger. I know churches are not employers, but the willingness to see the value in people, even in spite of unflattering personality traits, instead of "my way or the highway" diktats works the same for any organization.

[Soulsearcher]

Excommunications should be rare indeed. It's like working at a company that fires a lot of people. It may start with a few bad apples that really should be fired, but then it progresses to those employees who are just difficult at times. Soon the management doesn't even try to work with people in a remedial sense and many good quality employees are let go. I think it says a lot about a church when it takes its most difficult members and labors to work with them and rehabilitate them...or at least have a little more tolerance...rather than having an itchy trigger finger. I know churches are not employers, but the willingness to see the value in people, even in spite of unflattering personality traits, instead of "my way or the highway" diktats works the same for any organization.

Well it's more they kinda changed the rules. Excommunication in the Catholic church used to be used for some different purposes and it was eventually re-evaluated due to the abuses in using this type of punishment. The change in standards around it and it's utilization have come directly from looking at how it was abused for political and personal reasons in the church's past.

[MorningStar]

It's sad when people stoop that low!

Another time she called me to ask if another guy was inactive. I said, "I don't think so." "Well, he never calls my husband back to go home teaching and he misses church a lot. I need to know if he's inactive." "Why?" "Well, it affects my husband." "It's not your problem. I think they just go out of town a lot and it's not really your business."

Both of them tend to drive people nuts, so I think he's just avoiding him. The "inactive" people are actually very faithful people, so it was like she had to come up with some reason that didn't involve it being anything personal with them.

[Jennarator]

Another time she called me to ask if another guy was inactive. I said, "I don't think so." "Well, he never calls my husband back to go home teaching and he misses church a lot. I need to know if he's inactive." "Why?" "Well, it affects my husband." "It's not your problem. I think they just go out of town a lot and it's not really your business."

Both of them tend to drive people nuts, so I think he's just avoiding him. The "inactive" people are actually very faithful people, so it was like she had to come up with some reason that didn't involve it being anything personal with them.

Wow! I know people like that, and all I can think is, get a life!

[dahlia]

So I think she may think that:

1) Probation, Excommunication, or Disfellowship are extremely common (honestly I have no clue how common they are)

2) That whenever LDS sin their first thought is, "Could I be put on probation/disfellowshiped/excommunicated?"

Yeah, you have it pretty much. And I must have missed the memo about probation. What is that and how does it compare to disfellowship?

[Dravin]

Yeah, you have it pretty much. And I must have missed the memo about probation. What is that and how does it compare to disfellowship?

It's kinda unofficial not full bore disfellowship. Say for instance your Bishop wants you to skip the sacrament for two weeks but after that you are fin, talk to him again and then you're good to go, or if he wants you to take the sacrament but not perform any priesthood ordinances or what have you. Or even forgo the sacrament but you are fine to say prayers during meetings.

[Heart_Shaped_Box]

Two things:

Never miss an opportunity to make others happy, even if you have to leave them alone in order to do it. ~Author Unknown

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

[ryanh]

How about a third:

I have wept in the night

for the shortness of sight

that to somebody's need

I may have been blind;

But I never have yet

felt a tinge of regret

for being a little to kind.

author unknown