Eternal Loneliness - Or being single and Mormon

[pam]

Disagreeing is not scolding.

[guast]

It is not a "doctrinal boo-boo." It is doctrine. The only way a man or a woman can be exalted is by being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

A man or woman only needs to be baptized by the proper authority to reach the Celestial Kingdom. Within that Kingdom are 3 degrees. The highest degree, or level, is what we call "exaltation."

Without trying to step on toes there's a misunderstanding about the point of what was being discussed. Yes, a person has to be sealed to be exalted. No one is disputing that.

BUT to say that if a person has married outside of the church and then struggles and tries to be faithful in every way it is absolutely ABSURD to say that a person has lost all chance of exaltation in the next life because at 23 or whatever he or she married outside of the church. That would be to suggest that a person can live a life of decadence and wickedness and repent of all of that in their 60's but the person who married outside of the church in her twenties or thirties be d-mned because of that singular choice. I don't know how it all shakes out but I know this guaranteed exclusion for exaltation for marrying outside of the church is just not true.

If a person does believe that someone will never have a shot at exaltation in the next life for marrying outside of the faith then that person's found the loophole unforgiveable sin that has by some miraculous measure slipped by every general authority.

And for what it's worth, as a personal matter, I don't for a second believe that God would divide between wicked and righteous (or exaltation and non-exaltation for that matter) two people who have both married out of the church and were faithful to the end but one of which had the good fortune to have her spouse eventually join the church while the other did not. There's nothing fair or merciful about that.

Edited March 27, 2012 by guast

[beefche]

And for what it's worth, as a personal matter, I don't for a second believe that God would divide between wicked and righteous (or exaltation and non-exaltation for that matter) two people who have both married out of the church and were faithful to the end but one of which had the good fortune to have her spouse eventually join the church while the other did not. There's nothing fair or merciful about that.

I really would love to see some scriptures or something from a GA that says that. I have a lot of friends who have married out of the church and from everything I have read and studied, unless the non-member accepts the ordinances of the temple, God is bound to not allow that person to be exalted.

And yes, I am fully aware that accepting ordinances of the temple may come at a time later than this current life. It is not my place to judge, but God's. But one thing is clear, he/she MUST accept the ordinances on their behalf.

[guast]

I really would love to see some scriptures or something from a GA that says that. I have a lot of friends who have married out of the church and from everything I have read and studied, unless the non-member accepts the ordinances of the temple, God is bound to not allow that person to be exalted.

And yes, I am fully aware that accepting ordinances of the temple may come at a time later than this current life. It is not my place to judge, but God's. But one thing is clear, he/she MUST accept the ordinances on their behalf.

I've read it somewhere and don't have the time to look it up but more importantly I've had a deeply personal experience that tells me that that absolutism approach you present is wrong (and I can appreciate where you are coming from - I've believed that too in the past). I don't know how things shake out on the other side but I do know it isn't as simplistic as damning anyone who makes a mistake early in their life and spends the whole of their life living the gospel and being faithful.

The scenario you present creates an unforgiveable sin based not only on the part of the person who marries out of the church but makes the salvation of that person contingent on whether another person eventually joins the church. And creates, as I stated, a loophole for punishment, in which a person who commits all sorts of vile sins can repent, marry in the temple and receive all of the blessings while a person who has made every good choice in her life except for marrying outside the temple at an early age will be cut off from receiving all of the blessings in the next life. Not only is that insanely absurd but it cuts against all of our doctrine of a fair and loving God.

Spending time determining what a person is going to be damned for in the next life is a poor focus of our energies in my opinion. What I have been taught repeatedly is that there is NO mistake, NO sin (with the exception of denying the holy ghost and maybe murder) that a person cannot completely come back from, and complete forgiveness means absolute entitlement to all blessings and exaltation. Anything short of that is not complete forgiveness. To say "you can repent but you lose this eternal blessing because you messed up" damns the vast majority of everyone in the church.

[beefche]

No, it presents the scriptures. Read D&C 132.

Everyone will be able to choose to accept the ordinances. If they choose not to receive baptism or any other ordinance, then the Lord is bound to do as he promised. They will inherit the glory and kingdom they deserve. And ONLY those who choose to accept the ordinances to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise can be exalted in the third level of the Celestial Kingdom.

You may have received a personal experience, and that is great. But, that cannot be taught as doctrine. Unless and until a prophet refutes this teaching, then your personal experience will stay personal.

[guast]

Let me back up - I am not disagreeing that the sealing power is necessary for exaltation. No issue with that. But there is a lot that happens between sealing or not sealing in this life and exaltation and we do not know what happens in the next life between death and exaltation.

I'm fine with you saying that it's doctrine that sealing in necessary for exaltation but what I'm not fine with is you asserting and what is absolutely not doctrine is that if a person marries outside of the church for whatever reason they are damned for that decision. You do not know what happens between death and exaltation or how things shake out. I understand that you want to make the leap that if you are not sealed in this life because you did not marry in the temple when you had the chance then tough luck, it's over. I get the tendency to want to convert the steps we understand as necessary into a standard for condemnation of all those who we perceive as having "blown his or her chance." It's not our place to decide and it's not our place to condemn. You have no more right to decide a person has lost opportunity for exaltation than I do to decide when a person has rejected the gospel and has blown their chance to accept it. That is what you are doing in your friends who have married outside of the church have no shot at exaltation unless their spouse joins in this life. That's not your decision and, honestly, none of your business.

Not only does your scenario condemn those who are members who marry outside of the church but also those who are married and then join the church only to have a spouse that never does. How is that fair??

Have you noticed that the church authorities have never advocated that a person who married outside the church and is faithful divorce their spouse and try to marry someone else who is in the church or be forever lost? Why is that? Is it because the General Authorities have simply chalked those people up as being lost and too bad, they've given up their one shot? Of course not. That's ridiculous. There is a lot that will be worked out in the next life - I'm not claiming to know how it works out but I am certain that God is not there to tick off a singular mistake an otherwise faithful person has made and moved on from and condemn them for it.

But this absolutism attitude of "you're lost because..." is myopic and contrary to everything the gospel teaches about the ability to move past any mistake and to have hope no matter what wrongs we are trying to correct.

[beefche]

I'm fine with you saying that it's doctrine that sealing in necessary for exaltation but what I'm not fine with is you asserting and what is absolutely not doctrine is that if a person marries outside of the church for whatever reason they are damned for that decision. You do not know what happens between death and exaltation or how things shake out. I understand that you want to make the leap that if you are not sealed in this life because you did not marry in the temple when you had the chance then tough luck, it's over. I get the tendency to want to convert the steps we understand as necessary into a standard for condemnation of all those who we perceive as having "blown his or her chance." It's not our place to decide and it's not our place to condemn. You have no more right to decide a person has lost opportunity for exaltation than I do to decide when a person has rejected the gospel and has blown their chance to accept it. That is what you are doing in your friends who have married outside of the church have no shot at exaltation unless their spouse joins in this life. That's not your decision and, honestly, none of your business.

I am not asserting this. Please tell me where I said that.

I am saying that when someone chooses to not accept an ordinance, then the Lord is bound by that choice. I even said that I recognize that people can choose to accept an ordinance in this life or the next life. But, if that person refuses to accept an ordinance, then the Lord will not force the that person into a kingdom of glory that person has refused by not accepting the ordinances that kingdom.

[estradling75]

It all began with this statement... Notice the absolutes... Notice the lack of conditionals. Those make it very suspect from a Doctrinal stand point.

No one is going to lose their exaltation by marrying outside the faith! WOW! That's a doctrinal boo-boo that would hurt constantly if it were true, but rest assured it is NOT.

It is a simple fact that if someone marries outside the faith then that condition must change, either in this life, or the next for them to be exalted. Because you can't be sealed alone. If the change does not happen then they will not be exalted. Which the above statement above offers no leeway for.

Someone that chooses to marry outside the faith is going to have a different set of challenges. These challenge can be overcome, but there is no guarantee that they will be. Not even a sealing in this life can guarantee that challenges will be over come, because even sealed individuals can fall away creating the need for things to change

[guast]

I am not asserting this. Please tell me where I said that.

I am saying that when someone chooses to not accept an ordinance, then the Lord is bound by that choice. I even said that I recognize that people can choose to accept an ordinance in this life or the next life. But, if that person refuses to accept an ordinance, then the Lord will not force the that person into a kingdom of glory that person has refused by not accepting the ordinances that kingdom.

Maybe we're just saying the same thing in different ways. I don't disagree with anything you've said above. My only point was that a person marrying outside of the faith in this life does not in itself guarantee that the person has lost the opportunity for exaltation in the next life. If a person were to reject that in this life and in the next then I agree with that you that the consequences are what they are. But I don't think any of us are in the position to make a determination of when that rejection takes place.

All of us make mistakes and I don't believe that a mistake, such as marrying outside the church, made at a young age by a person who does everything in his or her power to abide by the gospel for the remainder of life will be used simply to punish the person for eternity.

[guast]

It is a simple fact that if someone marries outside the faith then that condition must change, either in this life, or the next for them to be exalted. Because you can't be sealed alone. If the change does not happen then they will not be exalted. Which the above statement above offers no leeway for.

I think you've stated it very well. I was addressing more the opportunity for that status to change at some point for a person who is faithful than suggesting that there is a work-around to avoiding the requirement. How that opportunity will present itself is outside of my scope of understanding but I believe it will exist for anyone who is faithful and doing the best he or she can in this life to be obedient.

[zuko725]

Curious.. have you recieved your patriarchal (sp) blessing?

If not, I highly recommend you do. It could give you some insight, guidance or some comfort.

If you do have it, i suggest re-reading it :) Reading my patriarchal (sp) blessing always seems to help me when I'm feeling down and it always leaves me with a feeling of comfort.

[talisyn]

As a single, 35 year old, woman in the church. I can honestly say I know what you mean. I have only dated one guy in my whole life and we only had two dates. After I turned 30, i went to the regular family ward where I live. I have been inactive for about the last 4 years. I started going back to church because of my workplace. I was able to get my days off for Sundays and Mondays, so I have been kinda excited to go back to church.

After turning 35 this past march, I realized some things. One, I am not ready to get married. i live with my sister, her hubby and 2 nieces. My "bedroom" is the living room and my futon bed. I can't drive because my eyesight is bad enough where I can't get a license. Unless I get corrective surgery.

Two, I feel like I am "invisible". Seriously. men don't look at me unless I am at work and they need something. i am a bit on the round side but I am told I am "pretty". But I swear to Everything that is holy if some guy tells me that I have a "gentle soul" or that I am "good person" I am going to deck them. That is some guy code for "lets just be good friends". Yeck.

3, I have never really been a in a serous or any sort of relationship with a man. I don't know how to act around them, I am shy around people that I don't know but I warm up to most pretty soon after meeting them.

4, marriage. The church puts so much pressure on people to get married that it feels like I am being suffocated. a) i don't like being pressured and b) i will do it when I feel like it.

I will get married when God himself tells me to do so.

I would like the opportunity to find someone who actually looks at me and not past me. Someone that would be happy for being with me because of who I am rather than what I look like. Most guys, that I know, can't see past that.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I don't believe my single status has anything to do with any plan, rather its my poor choice to be passive about the whole dating situation. My failure to leave my box and develop who I am is my fault. I also do not believe that God will put my spouse in my path and it will be according to his will that we wed.

I also loathe the idea that someone out there is made for me, as its a selfish idea. Too much damage is done when religion comes between people who wish to marry. Its interesting to see how many women reject the man they love, and promptly marry someone else within their faith and then live the rest of their life having the knowledge that they rejected for an ideal and that knowledge eats at them for the rest of their lives.

My ex-fiancee's mother did that and her husband turned out to be a far worse problem than the non-member would have ever been. They are divorced. My Dad, married my mother after having issues with his Catholic girlfriend. My parents are now divorced after having an unhappy marriage for decades and now my father, married that former girlfriend.

I obviously, don't hold much stock in rejecting people we love for an ideal, unfortunately, my ex-fiancee did not think so. Are you going to tell your child that they are not ideal and throw them away? I doubt it, so why would a spousal relationship be less than a relationship between a parent and a child.

Honestly, I don't know whats going to happen when I die, so I don't hold much stock in rejecting people for an unknown. I know what I have read, and what people have theorized and I also appreciate the thought of continuing marriage through death and beyond, however, I keep a large grain of salt when it comes to rejecting people based on what could be, rather than what is.

There is something to be said for loving someone for who they are, rather than what someone else wants them to be.

“Never let a problem to be solved, become more important than a person to be loved."

[Guest]

I think that the pursuit an eternal family is more than "an ideal". For most LDS women it is an essential.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I suppose its a good idea if all you want to do is pump out the kids, but with a ridiculous divorce rate, then I think its good to examine whether or not an ideal is worth the loss of ones sanity.

[Guest]

With that sunny perspective on marriage and family, it's pretty unfair of you to be hard on LDS girls who merely want something totally different than what you seem to be looking for. Marriage takes commitment and work, it's true. There isn't a lot of time for a family man to play video games. But the rewards are enormous. "Unto whom much is given, much is required." My experience with "pumping out kids" and building a life with my husband isn't one I would trade for anything. He feels the same.

[Martin67]

I agree with praetorian bow that it is wrong to reject someone for an ideal, because this is exactly what happened to me. My wife cheated on me with a mormon because she felt he could give her a celestial marriage and I could not. While things are currently on the mend, she could have ruined the lives of her entire family for that "ideal". Call it an ideal, or doctrine, or whatever, but none of us really knows what happens when we die. I liked the way the bishop put it best. He said we don't really know what happens when we die, but he believes in a merciful god, and that things would basically get sorted out in the afterlife.

[pam]

Sorry but someone isn't going to have a celestial marriage while cheating on their current husband.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Pam, that is a can of worms statement. You are inferring his marriage is null, because she cheated. Just because she made a huge mistake for a ridiculous justification, doesn't mean that she won't have her marriage in the afterlife. From his statements, he is willing to work it out with her, much to his credit.

I find it ironic and frightening that so many are willing to cause undue distress and judgement for the sake of an idea of what is possible after death. I doubt Jesus would have told his love interest that she was to be dumped and discarded because she lacked the same eternal perspective.

By all means, keep the standards, keep the eternal perspective, but don't abuse others in the quest for an unfulfilled promise. I have no doubt that when the final reckoning comes, questions will be asked about the manner in which someone dear was discarded.

I plan on wedding in the temple and I am well aware of what that entails, so keep the cultural thrusts to a minimum.

[Lakumi]

I don't think i could ever get married and have a family, my mind is not in the right place for it and... it just seems like I'd never be able to handle it.

kids should have good parents and I know, I'd not be a great parent

[mnn727]

Another 2+ year old thread

[pam]

Pam, that is a can of worms statement. You are inferring his marriage is null, because she cheated. Just because she made a huge mistake for a ridiculous justification, doesn't mean that she won't have her marriage in the afterlife. From his statements, he is willing to work it out with her, much to his credit.

I find it ironic and frightening that so many are willing to cause undue distress and judgement for the sake of an idea of what is possible after death. I doubt Jesus would have told his love interest that she was to be dumped and discarded because she lacked the same eternal perspective.

By all means, keep the standards, keep the eternal perspective, but don't abuse others in the quest for an unfulfilled promise. I have no doubt that when the final reckoning comes, questions will be asked about the manner in which someone dear was discarded.

I plan on wedding in the temple and I am well aware of what that entails, so keep the cultural thrusts to a minimum.

You will notice in my statement that I used the word "while." I used that word purposely. As long as one is cheating without repentance the covenants are broken.

[Guest Patric7olicoe]

Guess I am just wondering if there are other LDS folks in the same spot, or am I the odd outlier that not going to get much support due to the odd nature of my situation.