Repentance vs Never Sinned

[thebeliever]

Right. The prodigal son got a fantastic party and nothing else, while the son who never left inherited everything that his father had.

That is, at the end of their lives they were probably about equal to each other, but at those points in time and for some time after, the son who had never left was much better off.

[Suzie]

Right. The prodigal son got a fantastic party and nothing else, while the son who never left inherited everything that his father had.

My point wasn't about the party or the inheritance but the love and compassion his father had, like Heavenly Father has for each one of us and the lack of understanding on the brother's part.

"Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" (Isaiah 1:18). That's what happens when we truly repent, in your view it seems like you will always see the person "tainted" no matter what they do.

That's quite sad.

[pam]

Very sad indeed.

[thebeliever]

"Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" (Isaiah 1:18). That's what happens when we truly repent, in your view it seems like you will always see the person "tainted" no matter what they do.

That's quite sad.

You don't have to look down upon me because I have a different opinion.

We can have compassion on people who have committed major sins; they can be examples too. They can be completely forgiven by god. But they won't magically regain what they lost in this life.

[pam]

You don't have to look down upon me because I have a different opinion.

We can have compassion on people who have committed major sins; they can be examples too. They can be completely forgiven by god. But they won't magically regain what they lost in this life.

But can they be forgiven by you? According to your past posts..they can not.

[thebeliever]

But can they be forgiven by you? According to your past posts..they can not.

Forgiveness is not the same as regaining what someone lost. I can forgive someone for cheating on me, but does it mean that I should stay with them? Is staying with them the same thing as forgiveness?

[pam]

Forgiveness is not the same as regaining what someone lost. I can forgive someone for cheating on me, but does it mean that I should stay with them? Is staying with them the same thing as forgiveness?

That's very contradictory. How can you say you forgive someone and then take action as if you don't?

You believe what you want. I feel some compassion that you don't quite get what forgiveness is truly about. I'm done with this conversation.

Peace.

[thebeliever]

That's very contradictory. How can you say you forgive someone and then take action as if you don't?

It's like forgiving someone for murdering someone you love. You can forgive them in your heart, but they should still go to jail.

[thebeliever]

Peace.

Take it easy.

[Suzie]

You don't have to look down upon me because I have a different opinion.

I don't look down upon you at all. Actually, I appreciate your input.

We can have compassion on people who have committed major sins; they can be examples too. They can be completely forgiven by god. But they won't magically regain what they lost in this life.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that there are things that you lose and cannot regain back when a major sin is committed HOWEVER, doesn't mean that we have to see them as "eternal sinners" because they committed a mistake.

[thebeliever]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that there are things that you lose and cannot regain back when a major sin is committed HOWEVER, doesn't mean that we have to see them as "eternal sinners" because they committed a mistake.

I think everyone agrees that they are not "eternal sinners". But dealing with the initial question,

Obviously never sinning is ideal, but none of us are perfect. I hope this makes sense. But say you know of a friend of yours, who had in the past stolen something, and repented of it. Would that affect whether or not you trust the person, either with your things, or to be honest in general? Or a more serious issue, if you found out the person you were dating had in the past committed adultery or violated the law of chastity, and then fully repented of it, how would that affect your relationship?

My answer is yes, it does affect my opinion of them. If I understood correctly, yours and Pam's answer is that it doesn't or shouldn't. (Correct me if I'm wrong...)

[thebeliever]

An interesting question is what does it mean for them to repent of something? I cannot know if someone else has fully repented of something. I can know if the Church (read: Bishop) has forgiven them. I can know if they've prayed to God for forgiveness. I can know that they have not repeated that particular action. But I don't know what they are really thinking. I don't know how sincere they were. How would I know if they repented of something?

[Suzie]

The way I see is that I think we should see them with more compassion and I do find your position quite harsh because you don't seem to want to give the person a chance. Tell me, how would you feel if when you meet back the Savior, he looks at your eyes and says "I'm sorry, you have committed some sins that I don't think I could trust you ever again". I am pretty sure it will hurt beyond anything you could comprehend. But you tell him He can trust you because you repented and you will never commit that mistake again however, no matter what you say or do...He still thinking he cannot trust you again. You are basically DOOMED. And that's pretty much the way I think you see these people and it truly saddens me (and no, I am not trying to put you down).

The Lord has blessed me with the necessary strength that I never experienced sin in a major way yet (who knows what the future may bring) however, my heart aches for those who do.

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

Maybe you won't know for sure. It depends on the specific situation and the people involved. But I wouldn't just assume that they're definitely going to do whatever it was again. What if it was someone you knew, a good friend of yours, who just slipped up? We're all human, we make mistakes. And say they're ridden with guilt for it, repent, and swear never to do it again. Sometimes you can tell how sincere they are. Would you still assume they haven't fully repented?

True, with certain circumstances, it's better to be safe than sorry. But to not even allow them a chance is just not fair, the way I see it.

[estradling75]

True, with certain circumstances, it's better to be safe than sorry. But to not even allow them a chance is just not fair, the way I see it.

That does seem to be the general opinion of the majority of those that have posted to the thread that you started

[Seminarysnoozer]

The Great King David fell from his exaltation because he had sinned. No amount of repentance, regardless of how sincere he was, could make up for that fact. He had lost his exaltation. D&C 132:39

If I sin all my life and repent when I'm older, I would have lost out on all that I could have had. Perhaps I might have prophet or saved many souls? The person who sins and repents is not on the same ground as someone who never sins in the first place.

When you meet the Great King David in the next life are you going to hold it against him? I don't think so. We have to be willing to forgive as much as Jesus forgives otherwise we won't receive the same treatment.

As far as repenting later in life, don't you know the story of the prodigal son? or the lost sheep or the lost coin?

Being on the same ground or different ground depends on a lot of variables that we have no ability to judge. Maybe for that person repenting is better than sinning and never repenting, as opposed to never sinning at all. Be careful, never sinning is the plan Lucifer presented.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I was really saddened by what I read in this thread.

I have sinned in various ways, but I don't consider myself an untrustworthy sinner. To the contrary, because of my repentance, and the fact that I know my repentance is genuine, and my resulting actions show that, I trust myself. (Let it be known that I still sin.(I thought that earthshattering revelation might hurt:eek:))

The question is not whether you can trust others, but can you trust yourself. When pornography is shown to you, what is your reaction?

It should be an INSTANT flip the head away, if appropriate situation(meaning by yourself), then you RUN! LITERALLY! If with others maybe you don't "run" but you do things that is an expression of mentally running. If that is your course of action then there is no question of trust with yourself. Gen 39:12 Furthermore, the answer is to always flee. The only question is whether that is mental and still exemplified by your a turning of the head and eyes, or if it is literally physically running and fleeing.

Now, say someone had such an issue with pornography. Then they repent and follow this course. What if additionally the repentant sinner wasn't even shown outright pornography. What if it was just an immodestly dressed person. Yet, the repentant sinner turns his head and runs. However, there is someone who has never commited the sin and "puts on the blinders" and does not look away. He might still manage clean thoughts, yet subjects himself to temptation. Who would you hold more trustworthy? I would hold the repentant person more trustworthy. He knew something was dangerous and he ran. The other says oh I can stay here because it is just what i have to deal with. Or, no I can fight and I can win. In some cases yes, others no. It would depend on the situation but the principle would be like me going to a bar where there is drinking and smoking and some lewdness, even though I do not do any of those things. Why go into that situation? It is an unholy place. Stand ye in Holy Places is our command. If it is forced upon you then you might have to analyze the situation. If it is work, then there might not be much you can do about it, but to fight thoughts with your mind, hum a hymn. However if you are out shopping and are presented with inappropriate material whatever it is, then you turn and run. Anyways we have some counsel from our prophet.

President Monson said, "Do not subject yourself to the filth of the world."(that was Priesthood session BTW and slightly paraphrased). Anyways to trust the repentant sinner to stay away from first the sin and more than that, the temptation is a greater sign of desire to follow God. The supposed person who has not sinned, may still not be sinning, however he is subjecting himself (of his own choice) to a situation filled with temptation. One day he will fall because he was so foolish to keep putting himself in that situation repeatedly.

The WHOLE POINT OF LIFE IS TO REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alma 34:32-34. Can a person be set behind because he sins a certain sin? It literally depends on what sin it is and if the person is willing to repent. Unpardonable sin, Murder are the only two that really set you back, because one of them there is no repentance. The second depends on the case and the extreme degree of sincerity in the repentance. If they were sincere, I would trust them, but to truly get to that point of forgiveness, is YEARS of devotion and sacrifice for the Gospel and God. In other sins, Law of Chastity included, the only condition is if there is sincere repentance. That is the only question, is the repenatnce sincere? If it is then they are changed. Mosiah 4:1. Then what is there to not trust? His disposition is to do good not evil. His dispositon is not do that sin, which he fell to. That dispostion is presumably the same as any other person who has not priorly committed that sin.

So where is the repentant sinner farther back than one who did not sin? There is no difference, other than mere factual past. whoopdeydoo. God does not care about the past as much as he cares about the now and the future. Too many people in life get caught up with the past. The "glory days." The past is their highlight of life. Shouldn't the last day of your life be the biggest highlight when you can say. "I did it!" (you might actually be dead at that point;)) Some people talk about their mission as the high point of their life. I sure hope not! Time being with an eternal companion whom you love with all your soul in comparison with the time spent with assigned companions, that might not like you or don't want to work or obey or do what they are supposed to. I will pick the first. Yeah that mission time is special and was big in my life. However, there are better things out there for me in the future.

Hopefully it can be seen, that there is litttle if any difference between one who repents and one who does not commit the sin.

Now, I did not fully proofread this, I am tired and ready to go to bed, but hopefully I did not miss something mentioned from earlier. Forgive me for my errors in writing this.(that is inclusive of semantics and grammar, not in content)

[Backroads]

I definitely agree with thebeliever that, practically in this life, sin causes many losses that can't immediately be repaired. Again, no one is arguing with that.

But, thebeliever, do you think it should be a hard and fast rule that I should never again trust anyone who has sinned?

I think that really should be left up to the individuals in question as well as the situation. I've heard stories of people where manslaughter or even murder was involved... the folks involved wound up as best friends. A sex offender lives in my building... I would trust this man with my life. I also agree that pedophiles shouldn't be allowed to work with youth.

thebeliever, you seem to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that a sinner, while worthy of forgiveness if repentance is sincere, is never worthy again of trust, and you are applying this to ALL sinners.

There is a difference between being reasonably cautious and automatically assuming that someone who has sinned is incapable of sincere repentance.

You're right that we can't know for sure. But that doesn't mean we should automatically assume they are not sincere.

[Backroads]

More thoughts...

As has been said, repentance and forgiveness can exist separate from each other. Someone does not have to repent for me to forgive them, as forgiveness is mainly for the victim.

However, when I am assuming they have not sincerely repented, is it because I have seen no signs of repentence, is it because I am protecting myself? Or is it because I am still harboring bitter feelings and thus have not forgiven them?

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's like forgiving someone for murdering someone you love. You can forgive them in your heart, but they should still go to jail.

If one is forgiven than there is no punishment sought. We've talked about this in other threads, I realize there are reasons to put people in jail etc. to protect society and maybe keep the person from committing more sin. With true forgiveness though there is no thought for "punishment" for the sake of justice. That's God's job.