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Do any of you women think that sometimes "vaginismus" is an overused term (excuse?). I can have "vaginismus" when I am not in the mood or we have sex when there is stress going on. There is nothing to help coax the man inside, and if I am not exactly feeling it, it does make it more difficult. When a woman isn't in the mood, or might be a little uspet with her husband, it isn't exactly easy to get "in" there. Sorry for lack of a better term. :(

However, when those things are not going on, there is not a problem at all with that. Any thoughts ladies?

Vaginismus, though I understand that technically it is what it is and just what it sounds like, truly sounds extreme, so yeah, I can see where you might be saying it's overused.

Not being "in the mood" does create some physical difficulty due to how the female body works, but vagismus is probably best left to a chronic issue.

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Guest Chouchou

well first off, I'd like to admit that I did join this site just to respond to this post that I ran across. So, as a newbie here: Hi, y'all!

Now, this is a very delicate subject, i realize that, but there are lots and lots of things that could be going on here and I think that making negative comments about her and calling her "abusive" and such is just crossing the line a bit. I'm a little confused about how your brother feels about the situation. from the first post I thought that he was feeling ok with it. and so i thought "well maybe they're just a cute little asexual couple!" nothing wrong with that. but them after reading a bit more of the thread I think maybe he's unhappy about it and wants changes in the relationship. ok.

If that is the case, then she needs to see a therapist and/or a gynecologist. maybe she has hormonal issues, maybe she has some other medical issue. maybe she has some psychological problems going on. either she still feels guilty about having sex even after marriage or she has had some trauma or abuse in the past that she has not made anyone aware of. totally possible.

could also be a matter of what turns her on and what turns her off. he could be doing something so small he doesn't even notice he's doing it. but it could be a deal breaker for sex for her. some may consider it extreme, but there are sex therapists that will watch a tape of you and your partner having sex and study it to determine what exactly is going on. its used in extreme cases like this where the couple just has no idea why they can't get it on.

or maybe she is just asexual. which is something your little brother is just going to have to deal with. same goes for my final suggestion: maybe she's one of us ladies that just....well, we just aren't extremely physically attracted to men. doesn't mean we can't love one and marry him, but sometimes it takes work at first to get in the habit of having sex with him. and its worse for some women than others. but it doesn't make her any less of a good wife.

I'd also like to say that i absolutely abhor the comments suggesting that he "needs" sex to be happy. no he doesn't. biggest lie in society. any good sexologist worth their salt will tell you that any relationship can be completely happy WITHOUT sex. so did he marry her because he loved her dearly and couldn't live without her, or did he marry her because he wanted to have sex with her? hopefully the former. so therefore, he needs to stick with her in her time of need.

and if its possible your little brother is also asexual or not bothered as much as you and your parents seem to be at the situation, then may i kindly say (no offense, but) you may just want to get your noses out of where they don't belong. that alone might solve something.

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Guest Chouchou

Chouchou, thanks for responding. You brought up some very good points, but I would like to say that my brother is NOT okay with the status quo.

Which is what most of my post was assuming, but thanks for the added clarification.

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backroads

So has anything positive happened with them or are they just going along that this is the way it is going to be for them?

I really thing they as a couple need to go and see a counselor and get some things out in the open before something happens that is not good for either of them.

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backroads

she needs to understand all of us here in this life have challenges and this is one of hers right now and that is all it is a challenge if they truly love each other and are willing to do what ever it takes to move beyond this issue then the bond between them will grow ever stronger.

I am studying to be a counselor and can tell you that the issues this life can put on a person are just mind boggling and also that 99% of the time there is an answer that will help the individual. Best of luck to them and I hope it goes well for them.

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I have been rather saddened by some of the comments on this post and it has even made it difficult for me to sleep tonight. As a wife in an unconsummated marriage, I would have felt bad if I had known people were talking about my situation with out all of the facts and without me knowing. I understand you are trying to help her or know what to say to her but no one that never been in a situation like that can ever know how it feels, how much emotional, physical, psychological pain that is constantly coming back to you.

I have been married for almost 3 years. Amazing for an unconsummated marriage eh? Well, I guess I have been blessed with a husband who understands what I am going through, loves me and supports me by continuing to be patient and reminding me it is not my fault. I have gone through surgeries, bi-weekly and weekly appointments with pelvic physical therapists, books and special programs, several psychologists and even a hypnotist...all in hopes to overcome what is called Vaginismus... a disease and condition that is involuntary and very painful on many levels. If this is what your sister in law has, then she should research this online and find a specialist because most gynecologists dont even know what it is and will treat incorrectly.

Concerning this dear sister of yours not appearing to mind at all, this could be a coping mechanism. After countless tries and fails, so many desperate attempts to "become one" physically with your husband, your self esteem just gets lower and lower and you feel like you arent even a woman anymore, just a thing that was made incorrectly and that can never have what "normal" people share together in marriages and what we are taught is the most sacred and fulfilling thing in the human relationship, the most ultimate expression of love... Imagine you still cant do that after all of the hard work you have put into it and after your desires and heart were and still are in the right place, yearning for those sweet babies to come and just to know your husband isnt disappointed. I never even knew something like this existed and it hit me with such a shock when I got married that it brought me very low and it has been a struggle to come back up. It makes you think you werent made to be a wife or a mother, or that you are psycho because even little teenagers can do it (hopefully not, but we know the world we live in), or that your husband is upset at you and that is why he doesnt want to come home early anymore, or you just dont understand why you cant control your own body or why it hurts so bad. It feels like it is all your fault and youre the one screwing up everything in the marriage. That is what it feels like.

After feeling all of that and even more, of course someone would want to take a break and it may seem like they are okay as they are. Psychology is a big part of the problem and so is being able to completely trust your companion. If there are problems in the marriage or the husband is growing impatient, it will never be fixed.

I am sorry if I took a lot of space, I just wanted to set some records straight. I do know the gospel and the commandments and I would sure love to be able to have that kind of relationship with my husband and be holding my own children as well. Please dont be too quick to assume and judge, just love and be more understanding.

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eeccrioula

As a future counselor thank you for your post. I have wondered about the issue but since it was not brought up didn't see any reason to go past getting help.

NOW as to your not being a woman because of present challenges that is not true never was never will be. OK

Second you and your husband have a great bond to be working on this issue and yes it might take more time and if you really understand the gospel no challenge will be given us that we can not handle. Doesn't say it will be easy or of short duration does it.

I would hope that even though the path seems hopeless and is very discouraging that you and your husband do not lose hope of getting past the issue.

Again thank you for giving me a very personal incite to what this disease can do to a marriage and how you are dealing with it.

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or maybe she is just asexual. which is something your little brother is just going to have to deal with.

No, I don't think a total lack of sex qualifies as "something [the man] is just going to have to deal with." On the contrary, it's a deal-breaker.

same goes for my final suggestion: maybe she's one of us ladies that just....well, we just aren't extremely physically attracted to men. doesn't mean we can't love one and marry him, but sometimes it takes work at first to get in the habit of having sex with him. and its worse for some women than others. but it doesn't make her any less of a good wife.

Spoken like someone who never was or will be a husband.

I'd also like to say that i absolutely abhor the comments suggesting that he "needs" sex to be happy.

Whether or not you "abhor" it isn't relevant.

no he doesn't. biggest lie in society.

No, there are far bigger lies. And if you think sex isn't vitally important in a marriage relationship, you do not know what you're talking about.

any good sexologist worth their salt will tell you that any relationship can be completely happy WITHOUT sex.

"Good sexologist" is an oxymoron.

so did he marry her because he loved her dearly and couldn't live without her,

Please. If he lived without her for the first 25 years of his life, he could live without her for the next 25 years. Marriage is a partnership. The "for better or for worse" part normally said at sectarian weddings may be true, but it is also true that marriage is a partnership built on trust and truthfulness. If a woman is one of those who "just aren't extremely physically attracted to men", she should have told her husband that little fact long before the engagement took place.

or did he marry her because he wanted to have sex with her?

Isn't that part and parcel of the marriage package? Doesn't he have the right to assume such an integral part of marriage will be included in the deal?

and if its possible your little brother is also asexual or not bothered as much as you and your parents seem to be at the situation, then may i kindly say (no offense, but) you may just want to get your noses out of where they don't belong. that alone might solve something.

If it's a big deal in their marriage, then evidently her little brother is not asexual or unbothered by living in such a hellish situation.
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so, if the wife had been in an automobile accident and was unable to ever have sex again, then what?

I am just wondering.

Then I suppose she would be unable ever to have sex again (though that would be one bizarre auto accident).
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No it would not be a biazzare accident think crushed bones in the pelvic area for starters. I worked on an ambulance crew decades ago and you would be amazed at what get broken in an accident.

Sex in a marriage and intercourse may not be the same thing. There are ways to have sexual satisfaction when intercourse is not possible grow up. It is an issue that mental health counselors and others in the medical world deal with.

Being closed minded as to what is sexually satisfying to a couple shows you or any ones lack of maturity in a relationship in which sexual release is expected and desired by the couple in the relationship.

This is not the place to go into the many different ways sex can be enjoyed by two willing, loving people but it can be done if they really want to enjoy that part of life.

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No it would not be a biazzare accident think crushed bones in the pelvic area for starters.

Seriously? You're saying that surviving an automobile accident with a pelvis so badly crushed that you can no longer engage in sex again FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE is not bizarre? Is it common? Lots and lots of women have badly crushed pelvises that prevent them from ever again engaging in sex, but still manage to survive and go about their everyday lives?

I don't believe you.

Edited by Vort
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any good sexologist worth their salt will tell you that any relationship can be completely happy WITHOUT sex.

Any references? I've spent years trying to be happy in a sexless/low-sex marriage, and can't seem to figure out how. It would be easy if she was just a roommate, or a sister, or just a friend, but she could be any of those things without being my wife. Almost everything I've found has said that sex is an important part of marriage, and this includes LDS counselors like Laura Brotherson and Gary Lundquist and Christian therapists like Willard Harley and Gary Chapman. John Gottman, though he doesn't make sex a specific issue, insists that it is how we deal with conflict (and sex is often a point of conflict) that makes/breaks the marriage. If you know of someone who has figured out how to be happy in a sexless marriage, I'm interested.

so, if the wife had been in an automobile accident and was unable to ever have sex again, then what?

An interesting question. Something Dr. Harley wrote resonated with me. In responding to a similar question, he talked about how past resentment plays a role. If my wife were in such an accident, as much as I would feel bad for her, there would be a lot of resentment left over from the years when she was physically able, but unwilling/uninterested in developing/improving our sexual relationship. It is more the lack of desire/willingness/interest in our sexual relationship that creates the resentment. As shdwlkr said, there's more to sexuality than intercourse, and a couple should still be able to find ways to be sexual, even if physical injuries limit the ways sexuality can be expressed.
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It is more the lack of desire/willingness/interest in our sexual relationship that creates the resentment. As shdwlkr said, there's more to sexuality than intercourse, and a couple should still be able to find ways to be sexual, even if physical injuries limit the ways sexuality can be expressed.

Yes, being physically unable is different than being unwilling to try to make it better. I am a woman who has gone through the other side of this with my husband having low desire, (we've worked through that now and its much, much better), and it is emotionally difficult to be the one who desires someone who does not think sex it is that important at the time. It is very easy to equate it with me not being that important at the time.

And to the original post on this thread, there are lots and lots of other things that can be done in the bedroom that does not involve actual intercourse that would satisfy the emotional and physical needs of each spouse. For her to withhold much of that and be unwilling to work at it is the key here.

Good luck Mr. Shorty, I have been there, and I am a woman, so I can only imagine your frustrations!

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Guest Chouchou

Any references? I've spent years trying to be happy in a sexless/low-sex marriage, and can't seem to figure out how. It would be easy if she was just a roommate, or a sister, or just a friend, but she could be any of those things without being my wife. Almost everything I've found has said that sex is an important part of marriage, and this includes LDS counselors like Laura Brotherson and Gary Lundquist and Christian therapists like Willard Harley and Gary Chapman. John Gottman, though he doesn't make sex a specific issue, insists that it is how we deal with conflict (and sex is often a point of conflict) that makes/breaks the marriage. If you know of someone who has figured out how to be happy in a sexless marriage, I'm interested.

sex is important in that it can act as a gauge of how happy a couple is, but it itself isnt that important if a couple shows their happiness in other ways. It's more the effect of happiness than the cause. If you assert that marriages cannot be happy without sex than it would also follow that no long-term relationship is happy without sex. your need (or no need) for sex doesn't start the moment you say "I do". Teenagers and young adults that are in long term relationships don't need sex to be happy in the relationship, so why would marriage have to be any different? certainly if sex is an issue/source of conflict then the conflict needs to be resolved, just as with any conflict. but of the couple simply chooses to not have sex, then who is to tell them its wrong? and it does happen. as odd as it may sound to you, not everyone thinks sex is the be all and end all. it's a matter of preference.

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If the couple simply chooses to not have sex, then who is to tell them its wrong? and it does happen. as odd as it may sound to you, not everyone thinks sex is the be all and end all. it's a matter of preference.

What I was really after wasn't about the possibility that Platonic marriages can't exist and be happy -- I'm sure they can and do exist. You said that any good sexologist can explain how to make a happy and Platonic marriage, but I must be reading all the bad sexologists, because I haven't come across anyone describing them or how they came into being.
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First sex in marriage is an issue for the couple not a group on the internet to decide.

Now if the sexual activity or lack of it is affecting the relationship then it time to go seek help.

Sexologists came into being long ago

what is sexology Sexology is the scientific study of human sexuality, including human sexual interests, behavior, and function.

a list of major researchers I guess you could call them

This is a list of sexologists and notable contributors to the field of sexology, by year of birth:

* Carl Friedrich Otto Westphal[17] (1833–1890)

* Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing (1840–1902)

* Albert Eulenburg (1840–1917)

* Auguste Henri Forel (1848–1931)

* Sigmund Freud (1856–1939)

* Wilhelm Fliess (1858–1928)

* Havelock Ellis (1858–1939)

* Eugen Steinach (1861–1944)

* Robert Latou Dickinson (1861–1950)

* Albert Moll (1862–1939)

* Edvard Westermarck (1862–1939)

* Magnus Hirschfeld (1868–1935)

* Iwan Bloch (1872–1922)

* Theodor Hendrik van de Velde (1873–1937)

* Max Marcuse[18] (1877–1963)

* Otto Gross (1877–1920)

* Ernst Gräfenberg (1881–1957)

* Bronisław Malinowski[19][20] (1884–1942)

* Harry Benjamin (1885–1986)

* Theodor Reik (1888–1969)

* Alfred Kinsey (1894–1956)

* Wilhelm Reich (1897–1957)

* Mary Calderone (1904–1998)

* Wardell Pomeroy (1913–2001)

* Albert Ellis (1913–2007)

* Kurt Freund (1914–1996)

* Ernest Borneman (1915–1995)

* William Masters (1915–2001)

* Gershon Legman (1917–1999)

* Paul H. Gebhard (1917– )

* John Money (1921–2006)

* Ira Reiss[21] (1925-)

* Virginia Johnson (1925– )

* Preben Hertoft (1928– )

* Oswalt Kolle (1928– )

* Vern Bullough[22] (1928–2006)

* William Simon[23] (1930–2000)

* John Gagnon[23] (1931– )

* Edward Eichel[24] (1932– )

* Fritz Klein (1932–2006)

* Milton Diamond (1934– )

* Erwin J. Haeberle (1936– )

* Gunter Schmidt (1938– )

* Rolf Gindorf (1939– )

* Volkmar Sigusch (1940– )

* Dorree Lynn (1941– )

* Martin Dannecker (1942– )

* Shere Hite (1943– )

* Ray Blanchard (1945– )

* Gilbert Herdt (1949– )

* Kenneth Zucker (1950– )

There are some real heavy weights in the mental health world listed and it is important to understand going to a sexologist is like any other health care choice find one that you can relate to and feel comfortable with. This is not an easy subject for a couple to have to admit needs help. There should be no shame attached to this need for help anymore than needing any medical attention.

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sex is important in that it can act as a gauge of how happy a couple is, but it itself isnt that important if a couple shows their happiness in other ways. It's more the effect of happiness than the cause.

This may possibly be true in some cases, but certainly not all. You greatly undervalue sex.

If you assert that marriages cannot be happy without sex than it would also follow that no long-term relationship is happy without sex.

No, that does not follow. The marriage relationship is special and is not the same as every other long-term relationship.

Teenagers and young adults that are in long term relationships don't need sex to be happy in the relationship, so why would marriage have to be any different?

Because marriage is different from any other relationship teenagers and young adults find themselves in. This is like saying, "Bicycles and sailboats and skateboards and golf carts and good old-fashioned walking and all other means of land conveyance don't need gasoline, so why should we believe automobiles do?"

but of the couple simply chooses to not have sex, then who is to tell them its wrong?

This is not the case with the OP. He is not so choosing; only his wife is. Obviously, if a couple together decides that, for whatever reason, sex is not a priority or even an important part of their marriage, then fine. Whatever. That's their choice. But that is manifestly not what's going on in the case of the OP.

as odd as it may sound to you, not everyone thinks sex is the be all and end all. it's a matter of preference.

One does not need to think that "sex is the be all and end all" to recognize the central place of sex to the marriage relationship and covenant and to want it as an important foundational element in his or her own life. For you to say, "Hey, sex is no big deal" shows your own attitude toward sex, but does not reflect the (very valid) thinking of the other 99% of the species on the subject.
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I have set and read all the comments on this thread over the last couple of days and it intrigues me, I suppose that is the best word for it, that so many posters want to diminish the importance of a healthy sex life in a marriage. As stated several times the OP has pointed out that this is a one-sided issue, or at least on the surface. This is the core problem.

I have found in my marriage that sex is not the beginning or the end of the relationship, but it is an important aspect. Our relationship works so much more smoothly on so many different levels when we are connecting intimately. I travel extensively for work and during the times we are away from each other for extended periods of time we get out of "sync" in so many ways that are not sexual. It often takes time when I am home to get back to a sense of normalcy and until that time you can definitely feel the difference.

Is sex, intimacy, or the like a requirement in a marriage? If it is a part of the starting foundation or expectation of the relationship then yes. As the relationship matures this may diminish, vary, or change, but both members of the couple have to try and stay in sync on those changes as well. And to say this isn't the case in teenage relationships is naive at best. The longer the youth relationship the more the sexual issue can become a pressure point. That is why long term dating situations aren't recommended unless working toward a permanent relationship as the pressures lead to transgression or contention.

The comments of contracts, forced intimacy, requirements, etc are just ways of looking at an arrangement where either side has different expectations. You can't have a fulfilling intimate marriage under those terms even if you find you are justified. Resolving the root issue, whether that means moving on, getting help, or finding a middle ground, is the only answer. If the OP's brother had wanted a female roommate to start with then that would have been a different process. If the SIL is unrealistic about the magnitude of sex within the relationship and isn't interested in a mutually satisfying resolution then this will end badly.

Those big causes of divorce, conflicts over sex, money, and love... You find out how important they are when you have to live without them. My theory is a relationship can survive without one of the three if both sides are fine with it, but not without at least two of the three being mutually agreed upon...;)

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Guest Chouchou

This may possibly be true in some cases, but certainly not all. You greatly undervalue sex.

I have a very healthy appreciation for sex thank you much, dear.

No, that does not follow. The marriage relationship is special and is not the same as every other long-term relationship.

Because marriage is different from any other relationship teenagers and young adults find themselves in. This is like saying, "Bicycles and sailboats and skateboards and golf carts and good old-fashioned walking and all other means of land conveyance don't need gasoline, so why should we believe automobiles do?"

so....you're saying that your physical needs change drastically after marriage? that it is some physically altering experience that suddenly transforms you into a sexual being? I think sometimes that people place too much emphasis on sex after marriage. certainly, it can be a wonderful thing, but have you nothing else in common with your spouse? have they no other qualities or purposes that you deem more important than their capacity to give you a great sex life??? should those not come first?????

This is not the case with the OP. He is not so choosing; only his wife is. Obviously, if a couple together decides that, for whatever reason, sex is not a priority or even an important part of their marriage, then fine. Whatever. That's their choice. But that is manifestly not what's going on in the case of the OP.

I'm aware. this topic has strayed slightly... ^^;

One does not need to think that "sex is the be all and end all" to recognize the central place of sex to the marriage relationship and covenant and to want it as an important foundational element in his or her own life. For you to say, "Hey, sex is no big deal" shows your own attitude toward sex, but does not reflect the (very valid) thinking of the other 99% of the species on the subject.

but it doesn't give him the right to try to force his (obviously) very different wife into his way of thinking regarding sex. even after she gets over whatever hang up she has or whatever, she still may not want sex very often. they're gonna have to meet in the middle. and that may include him knocking sex down a peg or two on his scale of importance.

my husband and I enjoy sex. but we feel closest when we just cuddle. no sex is necessary. back rubs, cuddles, and tickle fights XD thats what we use to feel closer and get ourselves back on track when we're feeling disconnected or aggrevated at each other. it really hasn't changed from when we were dating/ engaged. after we're feeling ok again, rejuvenated, we sit down and play a little assassin's creed or castlevania together or maybe beat the crap out of each other on Dead or Alive 4. then maybe sex. and it is great. and it is wonderful and it is special. but other things come before it. it isn't the magic relationship saver for us.

Edited by Chouchou
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Guest Chouchou

Now to be a little more on topic, i do have two questions for backroads:

did your brother and his wife not talk about sexual expectations at all before they were married?

does she give any indication as to what the problem is or ...well more to the point, does she admit that there is a problem somewhere? i know you said she was mad that she had to go to therapy. and i do think that she should go to therapy, because she should feel comfortable with sex regardless of how often or seldom she chooses to have it.

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I have a very healthy appreciation for sex thank you much, dear.

No need to be condescending. Vort is expressing his opinion.

so....you're saying that your physical needs change drastically after marriage? that it is some physically altering experience that suddenly transforms you into a sexual being? I think sometimes that people place too much emphasis on sex after marriage. certainly, it can be a wonderful thing, but have you nothing else in common with your spouse? have they no other qualities or purposes that you deem more important than their capacity to give you a great sex life??? should those not come first?????

I am not expecting to have sex with my boyfriend. However, I am expecting to have sex with my husband. If I marry him and now he says he doesn't want to have sex, this would be a huge problem for me. If we had talked about it before and agreed to no sex, then that is the expectation.

but it doesn't give him the right to try to force his (obviously) very differently wife into his way of thinking regarding sex. even after she gets over whatever hang up she has or whatever, she still may not want sex very often. they're gonna have to meet in the middle. and that may include him knocking sex down a peg or two on his scale of importance.

What gave you the idea that the OP is using "force" on his wife for sex? There is an expectation for sex in marriage. In fact, we are commanded to have sex. If the couple, for their own reasons, decide to not have sex, then that is their business. But, it is obvious that this couple expected to have sex. He wants and needs to express his feelings for his wife with sex. She obviously has issues with it. They may be physical or psychological. Either way, it would be best for her to explore these issues and try to come to an agreement on them.

Just as it isn't fair for him to demand her to have sex with him every night, it isn't right for her to demand he never have sex with her. And by refusing to explore the reasons behind her reluctance for sex is, in essence, demanding that he forgo sex forever.

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