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volgadon

Pharisees

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SUzie said:

How the Lord felt about it? Did he support their traditions or did he condemn them? Based on the things Jesus tells them in the New Testament, it is very clearly how he felt about them and their erroneous notion of equating outward appearance with righteousness. Not to mention, they used to look around and point out those who weren't dressed as they were supposed to be...(of course, there are so many examples but just focusing on the one about appearance).

They were NOT interested in purity of HEART but measured purity on the basis of outward appearance.

The white shirt thread was closed, but I wanted to respond to this.

Let me begin by stating that I am not attempting to exhonorate the Pharisees. I do however believe in setting the historical record straight. Especially considering that we are studying the New Testament this year.

How popular wisdom sees Pharisees has just as much to do with century upon century of antinomism as it does with the facts. IE according to this conception Pharisees are a prime example of meaningless, hypocritical legalism. Lets at least make an effort to see things from their POV. Is it likely that their primary concern was with being self righteous? People hardly think that way about themselves. There has to be something in their faith or way of life which is appealing and meaningful to them.

The Law of Moses separated the holy from the profane, the pure from the impure.

Like any legal codex, the Law of Moses had to be interpreted as it was applied to daily life. No law by itself covers every situation, let alone fully.

What the Pharisees set out to do was ensure that the meaning of the law was properly observed in daily life. Failure to comply with the Law of Moses rendered a man unclean. Unless he became clean he was cut off from the covenant community.

So, for example, failure to render a proper tithe had serious implications. Hence the issue of tithing the tiny cumin and anise seeds. This was not an issue of wearing a tie to sacrament meeting or not.

You said that the Pharisees pointed at those not dressed properly. I must have missed the reference. Would you care to provide it?

I'd love to discuss the topic more fully, but for tonight I'll just add that the Pharisees were not a homogenous group. Jesus' teachings often fit with the teachings favoured by the school of Hillel, and that Jesus also had positive things to say about Pharisees.

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One thing that I find interesting is that at times Jesus knowingly rendered himself ritually "unclean" (according to the law of Moses). For example, he allowed a woman who was known to be a sinner to touch him, wash his feet, and wipe them with her hair (Luke 7:36-50). Another time, when healing a leper, he touched the man, thus rendering himself unclean (Matthew 8:2-4). I think Jesus knowingly violated these social taboos in order to teach the Pharisees (and all the people) what God is really like. He doesn't hate people because they sin, and he doesn't run away in order to avoid being contaminated by the "unwashed masses." No, God loves us enough that he reaches out to us in compassion, despite all our filthiness, and even if it means getting his own hands dirty, because he wants to heal us.

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That isn't a bad interpretation, but I feel that the key lies in understand the role of living waters. Living waters (such as a stream, lake, fountain, or rain water) were required for purification. They did not become unclean. Christ called himself living water because he had the ability to render people pure and clean.

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That isn't a bad interpretation, but I feel that the key lies in understand the role of living waters. Living waters (such as a stream, lake, fountain, or rain water) were required for purification. They did not become unclean. Christ called himself living water because he had the ability to render people pure and clean.

True enough, but in the eyes of the Pharisees, he would have become unclean.

Perhaps he was trying to help people see each other as people, rather than as "clean" or "unclean," "ok to hang out with" or "someone to avoid." In other words, maybe part of what at-one-ment means is breaking down the barriers between people. The Pharisees may have been hypocrites, but they may also have been getting in the way of healing and atonement.

Edited by HEthePrimate

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Perhaps another reason the Lord called the Pharisees hypocrites could be because the Pharisees were quick to label others "unclean" and distance themselves from those people when the Pharisees in fact had also done things that would make them "unclean". To me, I see a repeat of the "everyone is a sinner" lesson and that denying others acess to places of worship due to their sins or uncleanliness is wrong.

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True enough, but in the eyes of the Pharisees, he would have become unclean.

Perhaps he was trying to help people see each other as people, rather than as "clean" or "unclean," "ok to hang out with" or "someone to avoid." In other words, maybe part of what at-one-ment means is breaking down the barriers between people. The Pharisees may have been hypocrites, but they may also have been getting in the way of healing and atonement.

Perhaps, but we need to be careful not to see it through modern eyes. There is a time and a place for likening the scriptures unto ourselves, and one for understanding the historical context. Jesus was very much concerned with purity and cleanliness, that is after all the purpose of the atonement. The language Jesus used to describe himself would have been clearly understood by the Pharisees.

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I think of the pharisees in this way...that they lived by the letter of the law, and by the time of Jesus, they had forgotten the spirit of the law, or that the spirit of the law had been put aside for what seemed to be the more important letter of the law.

We need both the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

The law now is a higher law, but there is still a letter and a spirit. Sometimes it is hard to balance both.

I think that we are a little too quick to whip out the 'p' word whenever someone is trying to make a decision by the letter of the law. The rules are necessary, even when we don't like them, or currently understand them. Sometimes we need to try living a law before we can fully understand why it was given to us. We should give the benefit of the doubt whenever hearing about a law which has a questionable origin to us, try it first, then decide judging by the fruits of it.

I, however think that between the two, the spirit of the law is the most important...

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Perhaps, but we need to be careful not to see it through modern eyes. There is a time and a place for likening the scriptures unto ourselves, and one for understanding the historical context. Jesus was very much concerned with purity and cleanliness, that is after all the purpose of the atonement. The language Jesus used to describe himself would have been clearly understood by the Pharisees.

Well, if we are going to do that, then we will have to accept that in the Pharisees' eyes, Jesus rendered himself unclean. They did not recognize him as "living waters," and did not acknowledge his right to forgive sin. What Jesus was doing was revolutionary, contrary to and ahead of the spirit of his time. He was ushering in a "new era." Edited by HEthePrimate

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Thanks for posting a thread like this volgadon! :-)

One of my favorite passages that really convicted me was John 5:38-40

"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men."

I remember when I read that I was like "how many times do I just study and read my Bible and refuse to go to Jesus" I read it to attain knowledge, superiority, thinking that the Scriptures will always give me something but my heart and mind are not listening or hardened by my pride of sin. It is a very refreshing and convicting verse for a Pharisee such as myself. lol There is a great difference between knowing God's words and hiding God's words in our hearts. one of my daily struggles. :-)

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Volgadon I referred to pharisaic behavior to those who see/gossip/murmur about others who do NOT wear a white shirt or have a beard as "inferior" "rebels" or "lack spirituality". I know Jesus told the people to follow the things the Pharisees taught BUT NOT do as the Pharisees did (very interesting) But what Jesus said about them and how they perceived things?

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and canise and cummin, and have domitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Those are pretty strong statements from the Savior. Number 26 is specifically interesting.

For me the rule isn't the issue (neither was for Jesus since he told the people to actually follow what the Pharisees taught them but interestingly enough he also told them not to do it like they Pharisees did).

Again, the issue is not really the rule or unwritten rule, the issue becomes one when people start gossiping, murmuring about those who don't wear a white shirt or choose to grow a beard and when people make their own interpretation of what is necessary to (as per example) to pass the sacrament. For the Pharisees wasn't enough to just keep the Sabbath Day Holy, they went much further than that. In our handbook of instructions the quote is clear when it says:

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church.

We can all become pharisaic-like in our dealings with others, specially with those who look, think and appear different than we are. Jesus taught us to take care of our inner selves first and the "outside of the cup/platter" maybe clean also IF we do the first.

Edit: Also it is pharisaic-like IMO, when we think that by wearing a white shirt and being clean shaven we're somewhat now more righteous, more obedient, more worthy than our brothers who don't. However...

...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)

:)

Beautiful.

Edited by Suzie
Forgot to add

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I am typing this as more of an open ended comment\query... How much do most Christians really understand or know about the positions, views, actual doctrines, etc. of the Pharisees? I can tell you from my own personal experience with discussing items from the Old Testament with people, they rarely have a clue. Yes, LDS members who attend doctrine classes regularly will get a dose of the OT once every 4 years, but that's pretty limited. Those that say, "Oh yeah, I have read the OT many times.", well if you happen to have any Jewish friends and discuss this with them you will realize you have MUCH to learn.

The OT, as we have it in the KJV of the Bible, is a mere fraction of the actual. The actual would fill a large container truck if you were lucky. The books of the Old Testament weren't written down for hundreds of years and when they were it was only the basics. There was a written and then an oral side to the entire testament. Now without the oral many of the items we read in the OT are very mysterious, fragmented, and down right confusing. That is because they are wholly incomplete. About 1500 years ago the Jews were so scattered and it was thought that they would eventually lose the oral part of the law, that they actually started to write it all down. These commentaries and writings are the oral law to complete the written law. Unless you have these, you have a very one dimensional view of a multi-dimensional set of books. EVEN with the oral parts unless you can read and understand Hebrew and have a teacher to help guide you through the nuances of the writing you STILL are going to miss a lot.

There were 613 laws passed down at Sinai, not just 10 as we all hold to as Christians. AND in those 613 there was a vast oral commentary that went along with it all. So for us to look back at the Pharisees and say, ah ha, well let's just say we are not getting the entire picture. I have a lot of studying left to do as I have only grazed the surface in so many ways, but I have come to learn that my perception of so many items from the OT wasn't what was actually meant, said, or happening. This doesn't even take into consideration all the historical, social, and political ramifications of the environment at the time as well. Whew!

Now, how can we truly understand the prophecies, admonishments, lessons, and so on that Christ uses in the New Testament if we aren't clear about the things he is referring to in the Old? Just food for thought...

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I am typing this as more of an open ended comment\query... How much do most Christians really understand or know about the positions, views, actual doctrines, etc. of the Pharisees? I can tell you from my own personal experience with discussing items from the Old Testament with people, they rarely have a clue. Yes, LDS members who attend doctrine classes regularly will get a dose of the OT once every 4 years, but that's pretty limited. Those that say, "Oh yeah, I have read the OT many times.", well if you happen to have any Jewish friends and discuss this with them you will realize you have MUCH to learn.

The OT, as we have it in the KJV of the Bible, is a mere fraction of the actual. The actual would fill a large container truck if you were lucky. The books of the Old Testament weren't written down for hundreds of years and when they were it was only the basics. There was a written and then an oral side to the entire testament. Now without the oral many of the items we read in the OT are very mysterious, fragmented, and down right confusing. That is because they are wholly incomplete. About 1500 years ago the Jews were so scattered and it was thought that they would eventually lose the oral part of the law, that they actually started to write it all down. These commentaries and writings are the oral law to complete the written law. Unless you have these, you have a very one dimensional view of a multi-dimensional set of books. EVEN with the oral parts unless you can read and understand Hebrew and have a teacher to help guide you through the nuances of the writing you STILL are going to miss a lot.

There were 613 laws passed down at Sinai, not just 10 as we all hold to as Christians. AND in those 613 there was a vast oral commentary that went along with it all. So for us to look back at the Pharisees and say, ah ha, well let's just say we are not getting the entire picture. I have a lot of studying left to do as I have only grazed the surface in so many ways, but I have come to learn that my perception of so many items from the OT wasn't what was actually meant, said, or happening. This doesn't even take into consideration all the historical, social, and political ramifications of the environment at the time as well. Whew!

Now, how can we truly understand the prophecies, admonishments, lessons, and so on that Christ uses in the New Testament if we aren't clear about the things he is referring to in the Old? Just food for thought...

I think you are saying this too strongly. It is not necessary to have traversed every wandering pathway and visit the spacious building and consult with those that are taking those paths to know what the straight and narrow is. All I have to do in this life is hold onto the iron rod. Even Lehi in his dream did not go on an expedition down all the wandering pathways to gather up all the people that got lost in the mist. He just beckoned from the Tree of Life, in that spot. In the dream, it is implied that he doesn't even know where all those pathways lead. It is not "necessary" to understand all Jewish laws or have some kind of advanced education in the OT to understand the gospel of Christ.

I can see how understanding the OT better is helpful, I am not saying to not do that if one has the opportunity but it isn't necessary to "understand the prophecies, admonishments, lessons, and so on that Christ uses in the New Testament". There are many aids in doing that such as other publications from the church if we need to try to better understand those things. If we learn by the spirit, that is better than knowing about all 613 laws.

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I have not commented because I have, up till now, not considered this a worthwhile topic. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. The bad kind of prejudices is when we view all the individuals in a group according to our view of the group. Not all the Pharisees and Scribes were evil. We would not have a Bible today if it was not for the Pharisees and Scribes.

2. As to Sabbath dress. As individuals we should have a Sabbath dress and grooming standard that exceeds or at least matches our most important and regarded dress and grooming standards. This is not about money or how one looks. It appears to me that many have the same problem that some of the Pharisees and Scribes had in the past. Without question - those that have capability to be better prepared (dress and groomed) for the Sabbath but choose not to prepare are slighting themselves even more than they are the fellow saints.

3. I have learned the in most cases - what is on the inside shows on the outside. The person that is sloppy on the inside never seem to be that neat on the outside. The old lipstick on a pig thing.

4. We should all for the first part be the example of what we teach. Many do not understand the importance of dress and grooming. Many religions do not teach Sabbath as an entire day of worship - if they wear something nice to church they see no reason to continue worship attire or attitude any longer than absolutely necessary on the Sabbath day. This rational has led some to believe they do not need any personal dress and grooming standards on the Sabbath. This also contributes to the attitude that such can just as well “worship” in nature as well as some stuffy old church.

5. If Jesus asked me to clean toilets - or something worse - for him. I would do it and I would not complain. In fact I have done that and worse because I was asked to volunteer for such things. I personally have no problem wearing a white shirt for Jesus. What the heck - I would even shave for him. And I do not need him to come down and make a scene of it before I will act.

6. I do not think everybody in the Celestial Kingdom will wear white and shave all the time. I also believe that no one in the Celestial Kingdom will complain about what they “ought” to wear or the looks they get wearing their favorite red devil costume on days they do not shave.

7. When I teach, as I have done, both in primary and the High Priest Group - I suggest that when possible wear a clean good quality white shirt to church. If not that, do your best to be appropriate. Be an example and encourage others to follow your example. If you find a better example - be an example of that and encourage others to follow your newly learned example. And as the conference talk - If you get trimmed back a bid - don’t cry about it but understand that the L-rd is preparing you for something more important.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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All I have to do in this life is hold onto the iron rod. Even Lehi in his dream did not go on an expedition down all the wandering pathways to gather up all the people that got lost in the mist. He just beckoned from the Tree of Life, in that spot. In the dream, it is implied that he doesn't even know where all those pathways lead. It is not "necessary" to understand all Jewish laws or have some kind of advanced education in the OT to understand the gospel of Christ.

There are many aids in doing that such as other publications from the church if we need to try to better understand those things. If we learn by the spirit, that is better than knowing about all 613 laws.

I did not mean to come of as to forward. Not my intention. The admonition is completely concerning making judgments or theorizing about the Pharisees' behavior holistically derived from a few scriptural passages in the New Testament. I know they were used as parables to get a certain lesson by, but we are not talking about those individual instances, the actions of the Pharisees are being used in reference to laws and their application or the vigilance in which they are being followed.

I am speaking to understanding the entire picture as opposed to looking at the KJV of the OT and missing important attributes that would be critical to how the Pharisees and Scribes of the times would actually be living their lives. The rod you are referring to and I also follow, has more depth than what most people realize. Not simply the 613 laws, which are only for the Jews by the way, but all the oral history that most do not understand or even know of. By the way, the New Testament was passed orally for quite a while and parts of it are missing as well ;) . Also, the Book of Mormon gives us even more that wasn't know for so very long. The heart of what I am saying is that there is more to all of this at times and to search, learn, pray, and forever progress is the ultimate goal. I'm just not taking the "Cliff Notes" version of it these days and I hope and pray that even more is revealed in my lifetime, otherwise, my prayer is to be worthy enough to find out even more in the life to come.

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I'm just not taking the "Cliff Notes" version of it these days and I hope and pray that even more is revealed in my lifetime, otherwise, my prayer is to be worthy enough to find out even more in the life to come.

That last sentence reveals why people take that stance about learning the detailed facts of the gospel more than the "spirit" of the lessons. Somehow, there is this perception that if we don't get all the details here that we will have to learn them in the next life. That, I don't think, is true. How many years and eons did we spend in study as spirits before coming here? Don't you think we learned all the truths before we came here and all that will be restored back to us when we die? The thing that we learn in this life is experience and how to overcome carnal influences to listen to the spirit, the truth that we already learned. That is all we have to learn. The main purpose of this life is to receive a body so that we can be tested and reveal the true desires of our heart, not the desires of a "logical mind". Yes, there are things people can learn during a test, but the main purpose of a test is to be tested on things you already know.

The "facts" will be returned after we come out of this fallen state of forgetfulness. What aspect of gospel truth did you not learn in the pre-Earthly life before you signed up for it? Was there something withheld about what we are doing here and the purpose of this life? I don't think so.

This is why Daniel learned faster than others. It is inside of all of us, we just have to be in tune to that influence to understand the truth without having to know all the historical facts surrounding gospel principles. It is a process of remembering what we already know. It is not a process of "find out even more". The historical context is just the fluff that carries a risk of obscuring the simple truths.

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That last sentence reveals why people take that stance about learning the detailed facts of the gospel more than the "spirit" of the lessons. Somehow, there is this perception that if we don't get all the details here that we will have to learn them in the next life.

It is not a process of "find out even more". The historical context is just the fluff that carries a risk of obscuring the simple truths.

I think I may have over complicated a simple statement I was intending to make... There are multiple scriptures in the Old Testament that have literally NO reference point at all without the ORAL part of the commentary. To say you are going to learn anything from them is a misnomer. What we did or did not learn pre-mortally bears less on the current example as we are using the scriptures we currently hold as the way we are defining opinions being made about these topics. I am simply stating that it is an opinion being made on incomplete data\scriptural references. Examples: * Gen. 15: 8:17 (Ask: "what do the animals and the sun's setting and the fire have to do with the conversation?")

* Exodus 4: 24:26 (Ask: "What does anything here have to do with anything?")

* Deut. 22:12 (Ask: "What does this passage refer to?")

I did not gain my initial testimony of God, Christ, and the Church from ANY scriptural reference, but by prayer alone. Yet as we move through this life and use the "rod" to help guide us, it is most helpful to strive to know what we are holding to and what it is trying to say to us. The spirit is our guide in all these things, I surely know, but to read an incomplete verse and pray for guidance in like looking at a map not knowing where you are to begin with. ;)

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Thanks for posting a thread like this volgadon! :-)

One of my favorite passages that really convicted me was John 5:38-40

"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men."

Sadly, most LDS and other Christians take this verse out of context. We use it as a command to search the scriptures. In fact, Jesus has been testifying of himself, and sharing the testimonies of others, including God (as evidenced by Jesus' miracles) and John the Baptist. But the Jews would not accept these witnesses. So, Jesus told them to search the scriptures to find more witnesses, such as Moses. The Jews thought the scriptures brought eternal life (being clean through the Law of Moses), but were wrong. Eternal Life comes from Jesus Christ's atonement. The scriptures, then, can either lead us to Christ, or something very different - such as a long list of rules set up to ensure we keep the Mosaic Law.

IOW, Jesus is stating that living/recent witnesses are more important than long dead witnesses, whose written statements can be twisted about, and sometimes even corrupted (such as by the Deuteronomists).

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I did not gain my initial testimony of God, Christ, and the Church from ANY scriptural reference, but by prayer alone. Yet as we move through this life and use the "rod" to help guide us, it is most helpful to strive to know what we are holding to and what it is trying to say to us. The spirit is our guide in all these things, I surely know, but to read an incomplete verse and pray for guidance in like looking at a map not knowing where you are to begin with. ;)

We can't hold onto the rod with secular knowledge it is a spiritual hold. If one has to pray to figure out where they are on the map and guidance then they have not been exposed to the fullness of the gospel yet. I am just talking about those that have the fullness of the gospel. All that we need has been presented to us, and if we need more we have a living prophet for that.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in prayerful study and expanding one's talents in all areas and strengthening the ones we already have. But to know additional details beyond what has been outlined in multiple scripture study aids etc. is not a guidance, map orienting piece of information. It is, at best, a testimony strengthener but it also has the risk of leading people down various pathways.

People (not you), on these forums even, have presented material that they claim only they have discovered by their intense study and they think the authorities of the church won't listen to them and so they don't want to have anything to do with the church anymore. Again, I am not saying it cannot be helpful but that it is not necessary to even know where one is on the map.

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Snoozer,

I understand your train of thought sincerely. As for me, being a convert and having studied the scriptures for years before ever coming to the true Church, I still take my study of the word quit seriously. Do I feel that I will ever find a "new" doctrine or "law" in there that will change my faith, no. I know that the prophets reveal to us all that we need to know to return to Heavenly Father.

We are still admonished to read, ponder, and pray with the scriptures and I take that to heart. We go to doctrine classes, priesthood lessons, and sacrament meetings drawing guidance and inspiration from the words of our prophets, leaders, teachers, etc. past present and future. I find too often people look in the words for reasons of contention rather than guidance, wisdom, and comfort. When we turn to the scriptures with the Spirit as our guide, then all the truths of God are laid before us to be edified.

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Snoozer,

I understand your train of thought sincerely. As for me, being a convert and having studied the scriptures for years before ever coming to the true Church, I still take my study of the word quit seriously. Do I feel that I will ever find a "new" doctrine or "law" in there that will change my faith, no. I know that the prophets reveal to us all that we need to know to return to Heavenly Father.

We are still admonished to read, ponder, and pray with the scriptures and I take that to heart. We go to doctrine classes, priesthood lessons, and sacrament meetings drawing guidance and inspiration from the words of our prophets, leaders, teachers, etc. past present and future. I find too often people look in the words for reasons of contention rather than guidance, wisdom, and comfort. When we turn to the scriptures with the Spirit as our guide, then all the truths of God are laid before us to be edified.

I am thinking there is a possible dimension to scripture study and understanding that you may not have explored. I will try as best as I can to bring an awareness of this to you. I will begin with a reference to Eccl. 1:9. As you read this little verse I would advise that there is much more between the lines if you will.

The dimension of which I speak is not placed in time and space but rather a prophetic dimension that deals directly with the individual studying scripture. In such a dimension the epoch of Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt becomes a spiritual prophetic template of you and your personal saga to become acquainted with the divine mysteries of a “burning bush” and eventually breaking off from your Egypt and journeying to a “promise land”. In this the struggles of Israel become a “map” for you to transverse with divine assistance a unknown and dangerous landscape of experience.

With this in mind - the ancient exchange between Jesus and the Scribes and Pharisees of his day become a template for your covenant mission in your life. Not that we may learn to deal with Jews but rather with the scriptures as a spiritual manual learn to deal with the anti-Christ (Pharisees and Scribes) that we encounter in our day.

The Traveler

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I am thinking there is a possible dimension to scripture study and understanding that you may not have explored. I will try as best as I can to bring an awareness of this to you. I will begin with a reference to Eccl. 1:9. As you read this little verse I would advise that there is much more between the lines if you will.

The dimension of which I speak is not placed in time and space but rather a prophetic dimension that deals directly with the individual studying scripture. In such a dimension the epoch of Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt becomes a spiritual prophetic template of you and your personal saga to become acquainted with the divine mysteries of a “burning bush” and eventually breaking off from your Egypt and journeying to a “promise land”. In this the struggles of Israel become a “map” for you to transverse with divine assistance a unknown and dangerous landscape of experience.

With this in mind - the ancient exchange between Jesus and the Scribes and Pharisees of his day become a template for your covenant mission in your life. Not that we may learn to deal with Jews but rather with the scriptures as a spiritual manual learn to deal with the anti-Christ (Pharisees and Scribes) that we encounter in our day.

The Traveler

Does that map correspond with the journey from baptism to receiving the higher law, the gift of the holy ghost? For a lot of us in the church, that is a really short journey from the baptismal font to the relief society room.

Most of their exchange was their unwillingness to accept the higher law and the higher priesthood, which we have in our day. So, what journey are you talking about?

I think the way to deal with the "anti-Christ" is to accept Christ and not hold onto the lesser laws that have been fulfilled and we have moved on from.

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I am thinking there is a possible dimension to scripture study and understanding that you may not have explored. I will try as best as I can to bring an awareness of this to you. I will begin with a reference to Eccl. 1:9. As you read this little verse I would advise that there is much more between the lines if you will.

The Traveler

The fact of the matter is there is more to this than meets the eye. I also know that there is more to any scripture than just what is read. I understand the guidance of the Holy Ghost, I understand the fulfillment of the lower laws through the atonement of Christ. And despite the comments to the contrary the base issue that I am alluding to have nothing to do with EITHER.

I do not mean for this to seem to come off as "short", I am simply stating that when discussions of items that are linked directly back to the OT we should all take a moment to realize that when reading those verses, in the OT, that we are taking a very small slice of what is actually meant\said. As the KJV of the Bible is just a translation of the WRITTEN part of the scriptures and there was an ORAL that is not included. Without the oral, many times the scriptural reference or story being told is incomplete, cryptic, or makes no sense at all. This is because the reader on gets a small slither of a glimpse in many cases. BUT when you look at the oral commentary\tradition\scripture that is available (not in any Christian Bible that I know of), but in the Hebrew Talmud\Tanach you get a clearer picture.

Not that this changes the teaching of Christ, adds any new laws we are missing (we are not Jews and I stated earlier are not subject to the 613 laws), but a clearer reference to the actual text of the OT.

The scriptural reference you gave is a great example, Traveler. It actually is referring to the fact that whatever we view as new has already been provided in God's infinite wisdom. He created the resources, conditions, and concepts for all discoveries and inventions until the end of time. --Tanach, Stones Edition, Rashi

Hope that provides a bit more perspective on what I was talking about and some of the items I put into previous posts in this thread. Thanks :)

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