Seriousness of masturbation?


dear_john
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I figure if you feel spiritually unsettled by anything and can't decide whether it's bishop-worthy or not, go to the bishop. I see no harm coming from it.

If your Bishop can give you the comfort that everything is okay..how much better you would feel than feeling the uncertainty.

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If your Bishop can give you the comfort that everything is okay..how much better you would feel than feeling the uncertainty.

Exactly.

If nothing else, it's nice to have someone to whom you can express your thoughts and feelings.

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I have talked to many bishops over the last 25 years about masturbation, and none of them have ever told me that I had no need to come to them.

I actually debated with myself about whether or not I needed to tell my mission president, when I had a slip up on my mission, and ultimately decided not to. That was the wrong choice. Unfortunately, it took me another 15 years to overcome the problem, with the help of a loving bishop.

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I overcame masturbation for nine months, after being threatened with church discipline for it. The day that I gave in again was heartbreaking, and I cried myself to sleep hearing Saturday's Warrior in my head. "Didn't we love him? Didn't we raise him well ... "

Growing up, I always thought I was the only one with this problem. Even when the kids around me talked about "hot" girls, or made dirty jokes, it just amazed me that they could somehow do that without masturbating. They were advancing in the Priesthood, weren't they? What were they doing, lying about it? It was unthinkable.

I tried so hard over the years, but I didn't try hard enough. It was my fault, as always. God was perfect, so if I was still doing this it was because of me. I hated myself, I hated the guilt my abusive father gave me, and I hated that I was the odd one out, who didn't get to go on his mission or go to the temple at all. Who wouldn't be able to marry for eternity, and who would just give in again after less than a year if he somehow became clean. I imagined my wife crying and telling the bishop about my addiction, and hating myself the entire rest of my life. I nearly killed myself.

I finally decided to just accept things the way they were, and try to be the best person I could no matter what. If I couldn't overcome this, then I couldn't overcome this, and I'd still love and help other people. I felt better about myself afterwards.

Last year I realized that I wasn't the problem. But the guilt lingers on, just like the emotional scars from my father's abuse. I hope someday I'll be free of both.

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Feathertail,

I'm sorry you've had such a rough time. Masturbation is actually very, very common. But it is also something that can be overcome.

I suppose I was fortunate, because the first time I confessed to a bishop, as a teenager, he told me "There are 2 kinds of boys - those that masturbate, and those that lie." While that may not be completely accurate, even Spencer W. Kimball called it a "common indiscretion."

The way that these problems are treated in the church has changed in recent years. Leaders are now trained to be more sensitive and helpful when people come to them about pornography and masturbation.

Besides meeting regularly with my bishop, something that has helped me is to attend the weekly Addiction Recovery Program meetings run by LDS Family Services. They have special meetings in many areas for those involved in pornography, masturbation, and other sexual addictions. It is helpful to be able to meet with others that have common problems and share hope and talk about how we can be healed through the atonement. You can find out more here: Addiction Recovery Program

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Feathertail,

I'm sorry you've had such a rough time. Masturbation is actually very, very common. But it is also something that can be overcome.

I suppose I was fortunate, because the first time I confessed to a bishop, as a teenager, he told me "There are 2 kinds of boys - those that masturbate, and those that lie." While that may not be completely accurate, even Spencer W. Kimball called it a "common indiscretion."

The way that these problems are treated in the church has changed in recent years. Leaders are now trained to be more sensitive and helpful when people come to them about pornography and masturbation.

Besides meeting regularly with my bishop, something that has helped me is to attend the weekly Addiction Recovery Program meetings run by LDS Family Services. They have special meetings in many areas for those involved in pornography, masturbation, and other sexual addictions. It is helpful to be able to meet with others that have common problems and share hope and talk about how we can be healed through the atonement. You can find out more here: Addiction Recovery Program

I'm not going to try to talk you out of that, because in many ways I think that the people in those programs have a healthier attitude than the rest of the church population does. You're taught to love and accept yourself despite your "addiction," and to not see it as a life-shattering failure if you give in again. I've seen how people draw closer to their god and his love that way, and how it gives them the strength to overcome the guilt and shame taught by their parents and other church leaders.

For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors. (And for those of you playing at home, the two are linked, because guilt and shame fuel addictive behaviors. So even if your goal is to stop every Mormon teen and husband from masturbating, you're defeating the purpose by shaming them.) Insofar as your program has helped you with that, I'm okay with it.

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I'm not going to try to talk you out of that, because in many ways I think that the people in those programs have a healthier attitude than the rest of the church population does. You're taught to love and accept yourself despite your "addiction," and to not see it as a life-shattering failure if you give in again. I've seen how people draw closer to their god and his love that way, and how it gives them the strength to overcome the guilt and shame taught by their parents and other church leaders.

For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors. (And for those of you playing at home, the two are linked, because guilt and shame fuel addictive behaviors. So even if your goal is to stop every Mormon teen and husband from masturbating, you're defeating the purpose by shaming them.) Insofar as your program has helped you with that, I'm okay with it.

Once you admit you have a problem, bring it out into the open so it's no longer a secret, and work towards overcoming it, there is no guilt and shame left. :)

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Once you admit you have a problem, bring it out into the open so it's no longer a secret, and work towards overcoming it, there is no guilt and shame left. :)

That depends on how others treat you after you admit it. The supportive atmosphere of the "addiction" counseling is the most important part of it. Meanwhile, most people know better than to go up and mention in their testimonies that they're gay / lesbian / bisexual, but the few times I've heard of them actually being accepted after they do so are heartwarming. I sort of experienced that with my autism post.

I think if more people knew they'd be accepted that way, you'd find out a lot about your fellow ward members.

I'd also like to reiterate that I consider masturbation to be healthy behavior for most people, and no more of a problem or an addiction than an autistic's need to self-stimulate (flap hands, rock back and forth, rub fingers over objects). It may be unsettling for people who don't feel that need, but it's necessary for those that do. Outlawing it is the same as outlawing the people who need it, or who can't hide that they need it. IMO.

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For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors. (And for those of you playing at home, the two are linked, because guilt and shame fuel addictive behaviors.

Very true. It seems paradoxical--an addict feels shame for engaging in a particular behavior, and then does that behavior in order to feel better--but that's the way it works. The very definition of a vicious cycle!
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For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors.

In what sense are guilt and shame unnatural behaviors?

I'd also like to reiterate that I consider masturbation to be healthy behavior for most people

Why would you like to reiterate this?

Outlawing it is the same as outlawing the people who need it, or who can't hide that they need it. IMO.

Has someone here been talking about making private masturbation an illegal activity?

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For me, the guilt and shame are the biggest things to overcome, not what I consider to be natural and healthy sexual behaviors.

In what sense are guilt and shame unnatural behaviors?

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Most medical and mental health professionals would say it's normal and healthy (WebMD.com, is just one example). I happen to agree, but understand that some LDS people disagree.

BTW, I love your screen name! Big Tolkien fan. :)

I consider Heavenly Father the ultimate authority on what is healthy. Since "normal" doesn't equate to moral or ethical, the professionals can have that one.

Thank you. I love Tolkien, and Eowyn is just awesome. :D

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sleep-deprivation-induced superfluous quotation marks
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In what sense are guilt and shame unnatural behaviors?

When you're being shamed for something that's a natural part of yourself, that you can't help.

Why would you like to reiterate this?

Because I said positive things about "addiction recovery" counseling, and I don't want to give people the wrong impression that I support it.

Has someone here been talking about making private masturbation an illegal activity?

I meant "outlaw" in the broad sense of "deem unacceptable." I.e. to the degree that I, as an autistic person, can't withdraw from a triggering situation in order to prevent a meltdown -- whether because of laws or societal pressures -- I'm not capable of functioning in society.

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When you're being shamed for something that's a natural part of yourself, that you can't help.

Lots of things are a natural part of ourselves, including taking things that don't belong to us and beating the crap out of our children because they bother us. However, the Book of Mormon teaches us that the natural man is an enemy to God, so we seek to control our natural impulses.

Are you suggesting that people are unable to control masturbating? If so, how do explain the people on this very discussion board who have testified that they have indeed learned to control and eliminate masturbation, demonstrating that you can, indeed, "help it"?

Because I said positive things about "addiction recovery" counseling, and I don't want to give people the wrong impression that I support it.

That you don't support addiction recovery? Or that you don't support masturbation? Or that you don't support those who don't support masturbation?

I meant "outlaw" in the broad sense of "deem unacceptable." I.e. to the degree that I, as an autistic person, can't withdraw from a triggering situation in order to prevent a meltdown -- whether because of laws or societal pressures -- I'm not capable of functioning in society.

Are you the lawgiver? If not, how do you suppose that your opinion might override the word of the Lawgiver?

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I consider Heavenly Father the ultimate authority on what is healthy. Since "normal" doesn't equate to moral or ethical, the professionals can have that one.

Answering your earlier question for me here. :P

Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine; whether it be of God, or whether I speak for myself." I feel that the LDS church short-circuits this essential teaching. It tells people to ignore their hearts, their consciences, and how miserable LDS teachings make them, because of the peaceful feeling they had at one time that says that the church is true. So they wring blood from a stone trying to make themselves Follow The Prophet, and blame themselves for having more trouble with it than others seem to.

I feel that's immoral and unethical, no matter what professionals say. Whether they're doctors or elite Mormon clergy.

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Lots of things are a natural part of ourselves, including taking things that don't belong to us and beating the crap out of our children because they bother us. However, the Book of Mormon teaches us that the natural man is an enemy to God, so we seek to control our natural impulses.

I personally feel that obeying authority leads to more problems than following one's conscience and heart. My father held me upside down and beat the crap out of me, scared me to death of my own body, and made me feel like a worthless human being because I was unworthy to give him a Priesthood blessing.

If I'm an enemy to your god, it's because your god won't accept who I am.

Are you suggesting that people are unable to control masturbating? If so, how do explain the people on this very discussion board who have testified that they have indeed learned to control and eliminate masturbation, demonstrating that you can, indeed, "help it"?

I could make myself stop eating for a few days. Heck, I might even need to at some point. That doesn't mean that it's healthy and normal to do so, or that I should beat myself up if slip. I personally went without masturbating for nine months, and hated myself afterwards.

That you don't support addiction recovery? Or that you don't support masturbation? Or that you don't support those who don't support masturbation?

I support love and acceptance of people for who they are. I praise that aspect of Mormon "addiction recovery" therapy. I don't support the idea that natural sexual behavior is an "addiction."

Are you the lawgiver? If not, how do you suppose that your opinion might override the word of the Lawgiver?

As 2 Nephi chapter 2 states, goodness -- the Tao -- precedes your god. I didn't belong to his church because he was god, I belonged to it because I thought that he and it were good. When I saw that (IMO) others' pain and suicides were "the fruits" of his church, is when I had to choose good over its law, and leave.

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If I'm an enemy to your god, it's because your god won't accept who I am.

So that's the way we should think, huh? "Look, God, I'm a wifebeating rapist who enjoys torturing small animals. If I'm an enemy to you, it's because <sob> YOU JUST WON'T ACCEPT ME FOR WHO I AM!!!"

Nah. I don't think so.

I could make myself stop eating for a few days. Heck, I might even need to at some point. That doesn't mean that it's healthy and normal to do so, or that I should beat myself up if slip. I personally went without masturbating for nine months, and hated myself afterwards.

And therefore...what? Masturbation is healthy because Feathertail likes it?

I support love and acceptance of people for who they are.

Awesome. Wifebeaters and child molesters, rejoice! Feathertail loves you!

I don't support the idea that natural sexual behavior is an "addiction."

How is your opinion on addiction relevant? Shall we also believe you when you tell us that you don't believe alcoholism is an addiction?

As 2 Nephi chapter 2 states, goodness -- the Tao -- precedes your god.

2 Nephi 2 says no such thing.

I didn't belong to his church because he was god, I belonged to it because I thought that he and it were good. When I saw that (IMO) others' pain and suicides were "the fruits" of his church, is when I had to choose good over its law, and leave.

Exactly. God is God only so long as he doesn't require us to do something that might be uncomfortable. Everyone knows that God will never tell us to do something we find painful. And growth is painful. What kind of cruel God might require us to grow?!

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I am who I am. I can accept that and be happy, or fight against it and be miserable. That's what your church teaches, isn't it?

Not that I'm aware of.

I do find it curious how much you think you know about "my church", when in reality you seem to have a tenuous grasp (at best) on the fundamentals of my Church's teachings.

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I'll just throw in that the Church's position on the matter is not exactly clear, let alone set in stone. I don't recall ever seeing an official statement from the Church about masturbation, and different bishops seem to have different opinions on the matter. Some think it's a sin and renders a person unworthy to partake of the sacrament, go to the temple, etc. Others think it's a sin, but not very serious. Yet other bishops don't think it's a sin at all, and only problematic if it starts disrupting the person's life.

I put this in the same category as claiming that Coca Cola is against the Word of Wisdom. Many people claim it is, but that's not what the Church actually says.

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