Seriousness of masturbation?


dear_john
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I don't believe you can provide any creditable evidence of that.

Can you provide any creditable evidence that it doesn't?

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Physically, people who self-pleasure can become unable to climax in any other way. Tell me that wouldn't affect a person's marital relationship.

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Just wondering where you got this opinion from?

I thought it was common knowledge, but a couple of places I've heard/read it are first from a family therapist who counsels couples where sex addiction is a factor, and second (and not so reliably I suppose) from a sex/relationship therapist who has a column on cnn.com. The first therapist was a woman who I heard speak and has at least a book or two out, but I'd have to dig around to find my notes and her name. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm not just shooting from the hip.

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I thought it was common knowledge, but a couple of places I've heard/read it are first from a family therapist who counsels couples where sex addiction is a factor, and second (and not so reliably I suppose) from a sex/relationship therapist who has a column on cnn.com. The first therapist was a woman who I heard speak and has at least a book or two out, but I'd have to dig around to find my notes and her name. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm not just shooting from the hip.

That's true. I actually know someone that has that problem.

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I thought it was common knowledge, but a couple of places I've heard/read it are first from a family therapist who counsels couples where sex addiction is a factor, and second (and not so reliably I suppose) from a sex/relationship therapist who has a column on cnn.com. The first therapist was a woman who I heard speak and has at least a book or two out, but I'd have to dig around to find my notes and her name. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm not just shooting from the hip.

I have read the same. It can desensitive a person and lead to ED or inability to climax during intercourse. If I'm not mistaken, that might be hurtful to a wife. :) There is also the issue of it becoming a habit until they feel like they "need" visual aids or it "takes too long".

Masturbation isn't about a need. It's about instant gratification.

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Guest saintish

Can you provide any creditable evidence that it doesn't?

Yes, there have been hundreds of studies on the effects of masturbation.

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physically, people who self-pleasure can become unable to climax in any other way. Tell me that wouldn't affect a person's marital relationship.

balony

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balony

Boloney they could not climax another way, or baloney that being unable to climax during sex with your spouse would be bad for your marriage?

I'm not sure how much credit I put on the no-other-way-to-climax, but if you refuse to communicate sexually with your spouse, then yeah, that will affect your marriage.

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Salami! :P

I know people who have been negatively affected by the habit in their marriages. I don't think anyone is saying that everyone who masturbates will develop those problems, but it does happen.

So for saintish's statement to be true, everyone in a sexual relationship and masterbated would have zero problems or, if they had problems, would have to be ashamed of them, suck it up, and continue masterbating.

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I have read the same. It can desensitive a person and lead to ED or inability to climax during intercourse. If I'm not mistaken, that might be hurtful to a wife. :) There is also the issue of it becoming a habit until they feel like they "need" visual aids or it "takes too long".

Masturbation isn't about a need. It's about instant gratification.

This is not just a male problem, either. There are women that get to the point that they can only climax using mechanical help.

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No you just made a statement and i asked people to verify it being I've been told by more than a few others that it can no longer be ordered.

Well, I was speaking from personal experience. I asked my bishop about it, and he said it is still in print and handed me a copy.

If you still don't believe me, I guess you can either go to the Distribution Center yourself, or if you know someone in a leadership position, they can access it online in the "Sensitive Materials" section of the ldscatalog.org web site.

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For those that are unconvinced about the physical affects of masturbation and pornography, there is a good book called "He Restoreth My Soul: Understanding and Breaking the Chemical and Spiritual Chains of Pornography through the Atonement of Jesus Christ" by Don Hilton, who is a neurosurgeon.

You can see him talk about it some here:

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Boloney they could not climax another way, or baloney that being unable to climax during sex with your spouse would be bad for your marriage?

That they could not climax any other way, that is very rare among men and almost without exception only occurs in men who most would describe as being addicts (read two or more times a day). Among women loss of sensitivity generally only occurs with frequent stimulation involving (for lack of a better word) vibrators. It is darn near impossible for a woman to lose sensitivity without use of mechanical stimulation.

I know people who have been negatively affected by the habit in their marriages. I don't think anyone is saying that everyone who masturbates will develop those problems, but it does happen

I agree, 99% of the time it is due to a masturbation addiction not masturbation in and of itself. I also have friends whose marriages have been ruined by a spouse who was addicted to shopping; perhaps shopping should also be a sin.

For those that are unconvinced about the physical affects of masturbation and pornography, there is a good book called "He Restoreth My Soul: Understanding and Breaking the Chemical and Spiritual Chains of Pornography through the Atonement of Jesus Christ" by Don Hilton, who is a neurosurgeon

Again this is referring to masturbation addiction.

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Guest saintish

everyone in a sexual relationship and masterbated would have zero problems or, if they had problems, would have to be ashamed of them, suck it up, and continue masterbating.

Would you mind rephrasing your statement, it makes no sense to me.

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Would you mind rephrasing your statement, it makes no sense to me.

Of course. It's a Friday. :D

You seem to be saying that anyone who masterbates will have absolutely no sexual problems. And if they do, they should in no way blame masterbation when there is some evidence that masturbation can limit one's way of being stimulated.

(before you respond, please do keep in mind that I am quite iffy on masturbation=bad all the time in a sexual relation evidence. And before anyone responds to that, I'm speaking in a worldly way.)

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I'm more than a little disturbed to see the direction this thread has gone o_O Are people who claim to be LDS actually defending masturbation, or am I misreading? If so, not cool.

Regardless, I see a lot of mistaken assumptions in some of these posts.

1. Voluntary masturbation is not as serious of a sin as addiction to it.

This is plain wrong. If this were the case, social drinking would be less of a sin than alcoholism. The difference isn't the sin (it's the same sin, after all), but the impact on the individual's recovery. As far as the church is concerned, a social drinker and an alcoholic have committed the same sin and have the same level of repentance. It's just harder for the alcoholic to repent.

Besides, how do you know you won't become addicted? You don't, not until you try it. And then it's too late. It's the same reason we don't have a little wine or one cigarette.

2. As long as you aren't addicted, masturbation has no negative impact on your life.

Yes, it does.

Physical - From sad personal experience, I know that masturbation increases desire. But wait, isn't sexual desire good? Not necessarily. A natural sexual desire is good. Masturbation takes those natural desires and magnifies them. When you're unmarried, this leads to chastity problems with other people. When you're married (again from experience), it leads to marital issues. You are likely to place unfair demands on your spouse. When the spouse doesn't reciprocate (because their urges are not unnaturally high), you feel frustrated and they feel hurt. Regardless of marital status, it can lead to porn.

Emotional - I've seen some people claim that, if it weren't for the "mistaken" way we are raised, we wouldn't feel guilty about masturbating. I have news for you. Thanks to an abusive father, I started masturbating for sexual gratification when I was very young, before my mother ever thought of discussing it (or anything sexual) with me. And the guilt was there.

Why do you think sexual abuse victims feel guilty? If guilt came from teaching alone, many wouldn't feel bad at all, because their abuser tells them it is "love" and "special time."

Guilt can come from teachings, but it also comes from the Holy Ghost to let us know that what we're doing is wrong. It's easy to say you were "brainwashed" when you feel guilty about doing something you've been taught not to do. It's not so easy when you feel guilty about doing something no one has ever addressed negatively with you before.

Spiritual - This aspect was overlooked in prior arguments, and it shouldn't have been. If you are tied to the flesh, you can't advance spiritually. And that's the strongest argument against it there is.

3. Masturbation isn't a very serious sin.

I've already expressed my opinion on "serious" versus "more serious" sins (in this thread, I think), but I'll reiterate: it's foolish to play Russian roulette with your salvation. It's a sign of the times that mediocrity is considered acceptable. The Lord asks us for perfection, and although He knows we'll never get there in this life, he does expect us to try.

All throughout Seminary and Sunday School, Satan's strategy of starting small to ensnare us, then building on the sin, was drilled into my head. Who hasn't heard the gross story about frogs and boiling water? The serious/more serious discussion is a trap he's laid.

4. Sex is a need.

The world tells us this, but think about it. Have you ever heard of someone dying because they didn't get sex? Me either. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you don't see sexual gratification anywhere on it. At the bottom is "sex," that is, procreation. Yep, we need kids to survive as a species. On the third level is sexual intimacy, grouped with other needs for love and belonging. Masturbation doesn't play into that either. Intimacy is about feelings and emotions, not base physical desires.

Masturbation is nothing but a selfish indulgence. And for all the people who claim masturbation isn't addressed in the scriptures, take a closer look. Selfish and base desires definitely are.

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Why do you think sexual abuse victims feel guilty? If guilt came from teaching alone, many wouldn't feel bad at all, because their abuser tells them it is "love" and "special time."

Guilt can come from teachings, but it also comes from the Holy Ghost to let us know that what we're doing is wrong. It's easy to say you were "brainwashed" when you feel guilty about doing something you've been taught not to do. It's not so easy when you feel guilty about doing something no one has ever addressed negatively with you before.

Spiritual - This aspect was overlooked in prior arguments, and it shouldn't have been. If you are tied to the flesh, you can't advance spiritually. And that's the strongest argument against it there is.

I will address two parts of this statement.

Whoa, time out. Did you just imply that abuse victims feel guilt because they've been doing something wrong?

Let me see if I get the logic straight. First, you acknowledge that abuse victims frequently, if not universally, feel guilty. ("Why do you think sexual abuse victims feel guilty"). Then you state that "[Guilt] comes from the Holy Ghost to let us know that what we're doing is wrong." You state that the feeling of guilt is frequently the result of sin, which I will accept as an assertion of truth. Thus, we will reduce this to a logical argument.

A: If I sin, then I feel the Holy Ghost leave me.

B: If I feel empty\guilty, it is because the Holy Ghost left me.

C: Thus, I feel guilty when I sin.

If SIN, then SPIRIT LEAVES. If GUILTY, then SPIRIT HAS LEFT. This implies (correctly), that SIN means GUILT. But lets take that a step further, and use that as a premise for our next argument.

A: I feel guilty when I sin.

B: When someone physically/emotionally/sexually abuses me, I feel guilty.

What is the logical conclusion, the one that so many abuse victims wrestle with?

C: When someone abuses me, I must be sinning.

If SIN, then SPIRIT LEAVES. If ABUSED, then GUILT. Thus, BEING ABUSED is MY SIN.

What is wrong with this? First of all, I hope you agree with me that the victims of abuse are innocent of that sin in the eyes of God and of the laws of man. The problem is when people automatically charge all feelings of guilt to some sort of sin. This is not ALWAYS true, although I acknowledge that in many cases, it is.

ALL SIN leaves SOME GUILT. But the opposite is not true. Not ALL GUILT is the result of SOME SIN. Thus, people often feel guilty when they have no reason for it.

Anyways, done with that statement.

The second issue is one of clarification and a little bit of nitpicking. You wrote, " If you are tied to the flesh, you can't advance spiritually."

"And the spirit and the body are the soul of man." - D&C 88:15

"For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fullness of joy." - D&C 93:33-34

We are not Gnostics. We do not despise and decry the flesh. We preach not being subservient to our bodies, our natural man, but total renunciation of anything good and lovely that our bodies can partake of is not what God intended for this life either. We will have our bodies eternally; we cannot assume that they will be bereft of senses, functioning merely as confining vessels for our "purer" spirits.

As for weighing in on the topic, I withhold my opinion for the time being, except to say guilt is a poisonous thing, but that it doesn't necessarily imply anything.

Thread-jack complete.

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