Seriousness of masturbation?


dear_john
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Again this is referring to masturbation addiction.

Anyone that has done it more than once or twice is probably addicted. If you don't think you're an addict, just try to never do it again. ;)

(Not to say it's impossible to stop - it's possible but very difficult. It took me about 20 years.)

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Guest saintish

Anyone that has done it more than once or twice is probably addicted. If you don't think you're an addict, just try to never do it again. ;)

(Not to say it's impossible to stop - it's possible but very difficult. It took me about 20 years.)

That is just plain ridiculous, Do you even know what the medical definition of addiction is?

The term addiction is also sometimes applied to compulsions that are not substance-related, such as compulsive shopping, sex addiction/compulsive sex, overeating, problem gambling and computer addiction. In these kinds of common usages, the term addiction is used to describe a recurring compulsion by an individual to engage in some specific activity, despite harmful consequences, as deemed by the user himself to his individual health, mental state, or social life.

So yes, for an addict or someone with an addictive personality one or two times can be enough to move the habit into an addiction. However it takes a lot of masturbation to cause harmful consequences.

If you don't think you're an addict, just try to never do it again.

by that definition we are addicted to a lot of things. I must be addicted to Church, reading the scriptures, eating, sleeping, bathing, brushing my teeth, etc.

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Guest saintish
Are people who claim to be LDS actually defending masturbation, or am I misreading? If so, not cool.

What do you mean by “who claim to be LDS”? That aside, I cant speak for anyone else but I am only arguing that Masturbation is a sin similar to not paying tithing, shopping on Sunday or as you listed below, social drinking. In my experience unless these three things become addictions the repentance process is the same, stop doing the wrong thing and start doing the right thing. That is a complete 180 in seriousness compared to fornication or adultery (and masturbation as some would have it)

1. Voluntary masturbation is not as serious of a sin as addiction to it.

This is plain wrong. If this were the case, social drinking would be less of a sin than alcoholism. The difference isn't the sin (it's the same sin, after all), but the impact on the individual's recovery. As far as the church is concerned, a social drinker and an alcoholic have committed the same sin and have the same level of repentance. It's just harder for the alcoholic to repent.

I would argue that social drinking IS less of a sin than alcoholism (based on first hand experience of loved ones) it is actually pretty offensive to someone who has seen the effects of alcoholism for you to say social drinking is on the same level. That shows a complete misunderstanding of what true addiction is.

2. As long as you aren't addicted, masturbation has no negative impact on your life.

Yes, it does.

Physical - From sad personal experience, I know that masturbation increases desire. But wait, isn't sexual desire good? Not necessarily. A natural sexual desire is good. Masturbation takes those natural desires and magnifies them. When you're unmarried, this leads to chastity problems with other people. When you're married (again from experience), it leads to marital issues. You are likely to place unfair demands on your spouse. When the spouse doesn't reciprocate (because their urges are not unnaturally high), you feel frustrated and they feel hurt. Regardless of marital status, it can lead to porn.

This again is the difference between addiction and normal behavior. That can be the same result even without masturbation involved.

Emotional - I've seen some people claim that, if it weren't for the "mistaken" way we are raised, we wouldn't feel guilty about masturbating. I have news for you. Thanks to an abusive father, I started masturbating for sexual gratification when I was very young, before my mother ever thought of discussing it (or anything sexual) with me. And the guilt was there.

Why do you think sexual abuse victims feel guilty? If guilt came from teaching alone, many wouldn't feel bad at all, because their abuser tells them it is "love" and "special time."

Guilt can come from teachings, but it also comes from the Holy Ghost to let us know that what we're doing is wrong. It's easy to say you were "brainwashed" when you feel guilty about doing something you've been taught not to do. It's not so easy when you feel guilty about doing something no one has ever addressed negatively with you before.

Are you suggesting that sexual abuse victims should feel guilty, because what they are doing is wrong? That is simply ludicrous. Sexual abuse victims feel guilt because they thing they have done something wrong (yes even at a very young age they have already learned that.)

Spiritual - This aspect was overlooked in prior arguments, and it shouldn't have been. If you are tied to the flesh, you can't advance spiritually. And that's the strongest argument against it there is.

Unless one is addicted, I don’t think you can say one is “tied to the flesh”

3. Masturbation isn't a very serious sin.

I've already expressed my opinion on "serious" versus "more serious" sins (in this thread, I think), but I'll reiterate: it's foolish to play Russian roulette with your salvation. It's a sign of the times that mediocrity is considered acceptable. The Lord asks us for perfection, and although He knows we'll never get there in this life, he does expect us to try.

All throughout Seminary and Sunday School, Satan's strategy of starting small to ensnare us, then building on the sin, was drilled into my head. Who hasn't heard the gross story about frogs and boiling water? The serious/more serious discussion is a trap he's laid.

Except the boiling frog story isn’t true, I have actually boiled frogs. Its not that they don’t want to get out, they actually start kicking like crazy, its that they cant jump without something to stand on.(usually the bottom of the pot is too deep.) In any case one could say the same thing about any number of things that are commonly accepted but harmful in excess. Ex., Lets not go out in the sun ever because we could get skin cancer, lets never buy anything because we could get into debt, lets never eat anything because we might become overweight.

Masturbation is nothing but a selfish indulgence.

well I hope you never eat a piece of cake or go out for ice cream because it is also nothing but a selfish indulgence.

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Looks like I'm going to earn a reputation of agent provocateur. In any case, my post did its job - it got you to re-clarify your position, with the side effect of drawing out some vitriolic retorts, none of which were necessary.

("Dingleberry"? How mature of you. I shall not reply in kind.)

That's all I wanted as a response: I wanted you to be more clear about your statements. As you well know, guilt is a poison, and if we can both remove the poison while simultaneously ending the harmful behavior, then true healing can continue. So often, the (obviously disastrous) vices of sexual unrestraint become an inescapable trap when larger and larger amounts of guilt are infused into the system. Labeling habitual offenders "addicts", immediately and without consideration to their individual cases, can make the problem worse and not better.

Addiction is a dangerous thing, and it is infinitely better to avoid the source than to tempt such a dragon. In no way do I condone those gateway behaviors that ensnare so many in the throes of chemical slavery. But common sense (and a good deal of observation) tells us that not everyone who starts down the path will be trapped in the addictive behavior, at least not immediately. And those who stop before they get "too deep," while in no way innocent, should not be infused with more shame by those of us standing on the side, trying to help them back up.

The SIN->GUILT->MORE SIN TO DEADEN PAIN->MORE GUILT cycle is precisely the one we should try and avoid heaping on those who have strayed some. That cycle has to be broken somewhere, and a good place to start is to stop the overuse of the term "addiction". Tell these broken souls who are NOT ACTUALLY ADDICTED, that what they have is a BAD/SINFUL HABIT that can become addiction if not treated soon. Teach them to let go of their past mistakes. Have them start to believe, to have faith in the idea that they are not enslaved to this demon, that they can break free. Teach them that Christ is stronger than any pattern of sin in which they might be ensnared. If they believe that they can stop, then there is hope. Then we have the chance for real healing.

If we are going to get there, then we must learn and understand the proper definition of "addiction" as a much more extreme and harmful version of "dangerous/sinful habit".

TL;DR:

For heaven's sake, don't jump to "addiction" so quickly. That is all Saintish and the others on this forum who agree with him want.

Edited by hyohko
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I would like to take a moment to remind everyone of the site rules

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

You are all adults that have agreed to the above. If you can't find away to disagree without being disagreeable this thread will close, and whatever other actions that the mods feel are needed will be taken.

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I do apologize for the name-calling. You're right, that was immature and unnecessary, not to mention against the rules. I just happen to find the word dingleberry very funny, and I was trying to lighten my own mood :)

I've redacted my over-emotional posts. This has not been a good week for me to debate this subject with any degree of objectivity.

Edited by coruscate
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I think I"m somewhere in the middle on this...

I continue to say that masterbation is not as serious a sin as other sins--because a GA said so, it does not have the effects other sexual sins do, and I just can't lump in the same category a rapist and someone who masturbated a few times. Sorry. If all sins were equal, we would not have pardonable vs unpardonable sins.

Do I recommend masturbation? No. Do I think it's wrong? Yes, for a number of reasons. Do I think it warrants a talk with the bishop? Quite often, especially if you do feel bad about it.

But I do think it's not as serious as other sins.

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Do I think it warrants a talk with the bishop? Quite often, especially if you do feel bad about it.

I would respectfully submit that only going to the Bishop when we feel bad, boils down to leaving a fox in control of our respective spiritual henhouses.

Humans have a staggering capacity to justify their sexual behavior, and IMHO the whole point of confession is to have a third person who can cut through the crap and receive inspiration as to how serious of a spiritual problem the confessor really has (or hasn't) created for himself.

If you don't think you're an addict, just try to never do it again.

by that definition we are addicted to a lot of things. I must be addicted to Church, reading the scriptures, eating, sleeping, bathing, brushing my teeth, etc.

Indeed; and I agree with you that we may be a little quick to play the "addiction" card. But the elephant in this oratorical room is that no reputable GA has seriously spoken out against any of the behaviors you mention.

Masturbation is nothing but a selfish indulgence.

well I hope you never eat a piece of cake or go out for ice cream because it is also nothing but a selfish indulgence.

Perhaps, but as Mormons our doctrine draws direct theological ties between exaltation and procreation. It's pretty easy to see why someone who (pardon any puns here) toys with the power to create life, is going to have some trouble attaining godhood. It's a little harder to see how someone's indulgence in the occasional hot fudge sundae is going to have any significant bearing on the way they might run worlds in the eternities.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I haven't read ALL of the 150+ comments to see if this has already been mentioned but a good indicator of the severity of masturbation is the fact that it can keep you from being able to serve a mission, or can get you sent home early if you do it. Missionaries in my mission were sent home early if they confessed to masturbating. Obviously not as a punishment but it IS something that needs tending to, not like letting a four letter word slip after stubbing your toe or something :)

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I would respectfully submit that only going to the Bishop when we feel bad, boils down to leaving a fox in control of our respective spiritual henhouses.

Humans have a staggering capacity to justify their sexual behavior, and IMHO the whole point of confession is to have a third person who can cut through the crap and receive inspiration as to how serious of a spiritual problem the confessor really has (or hasn't) created for himself.

Granted. I'll try to rephrase. Sin is sin and some things simply require the bishop, but there has been prior discussion in this thread that guilt is one of those things society evilly throws upon you.

When you are suffering spiritually, the bishop is a good person to speak to.

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a good indicator of the severity of masturbation is the fact that it can keep you from being able to serve a mission, or can get you sent home early if you do it. Missionaries in my mission were sent home early if they confessed to masturbating.

If this is true, it is one of the most outrageous things I have ever heard. Being sent home from a mission is a life-altering event, and is done because the missionary has forsaken his ministry.

I do not believe that a missionary would be sent home for masturbating. I think this is false. If so, there would be a whole lot of missionaries lying to their mission presidents' faces. But if it's true, it means either that masturbation is far more horrific a transgression than some of us give it credit for, or that some mission presidents show unbelievably poor judgment.

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Granted. I'll try to rephrase. Sin is sin and some things simply require the bishop, but there has been prior discussion in this thread that guilt is one of those things society evilly throws upon you.

When you are suffering spiritually, the bishop is a good person to speak to.

Well, there's "guilt" and then there's "shame". I agree that the latter is largely a social construct, is often counterproductive, and very hard to squelch. But I think the former is often a warning from a higher source, and can be very easy to dismiss.

I should probably read the preceding discussion in more detail before going too much further on this, though.

Best--

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If this is true, it is one of the most outrageous things I have ever heard. Being sent home from a mission is a life-altering event, and is done because the missionary has forsaken his ministry.

I do not believe that a missionary would be sent home for masturbating. I think this is false. If so, there would be a whole lot of missionaries lying to their mission presidents' faces. But if it's true, it means either that masturbation is far more horrific a transgression than some of us give it credit for, or that some mission presidents show unbelievably poor judgment.

I agree, that sounds a little iffy.

I know a lot of guy missionaries who came home and mentioned sex dreams they even discussed with the rest of the guys. None of them were sent home.

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Well, there's "guilt" and then there's "shame". I agree that the latter is largely a social construct, is often counterproductive, and very hard to squelch. But I think the former is often a warning from a higher source, and can be very easy to dismiss.

I should probably read the preceding discussion in more detail before going too much further on this, though.

Best--

Even so, it's hard to get someone to sincerely go to the bishop if they don't feel bad about what they've done.

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Oh, I agree. I just thought (and perhaps I misinterpreted) that you were saying that you only *need* to go to the bishop if you feel bad.

You don't go to the bishop to feel better; you go to the bishop to get right with the Lord.

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If this is true, it is one of the most outrageous things I have ever heard. Being sent home from a mission is a life-altering event, and is done because the missionary has forsaken his ministry.

I do not believe that a missionary would be sent home for masturbating. I think this is false. If so, there would be a whole lot of missionaries lying to their mission presidents' faces. But if it's true, it means either that masturbation is far more horrific a transgression than some of us give it credit for, or that some mission presidents show unbelievably poor judgment.

I'll rephrase for clarification. If a missionary confesses to recently masturbating, he was sent home, that's the rules as we all understood it. My bishop was VERY clear as I was preparing for my mission that it was not tolerated in the LEAST degree.

About the presidents showing poor judgment, I would disagree on that. Masturbation is a FAR more serious transgression than some give it credit for.

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I'll rephrase for clarification. If a missionary confesses to recently masturbating, he was sent home, that's the rules as we all understood it.

This is perhaps the most absurd thing I have ever heard. You may have been told this, but unless your mission president was a psycho, I don't believe it for a moment.

About the presidents showing poor judgment, I would disagree on that. Masturbation is a FAR more serious transgression than some give it credit for.

Masturbation is a FAR more serious transgression than they who don't believe it to be a transgression suppose. So is sneaking Halloween candy from your mother's stash. But anyone who thinks that masturbation is tantamount to forsaking your ministry has a twisted and sick view of sin and of sexuality.

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Let's not go so far as to offend others please, especially new forum members like me. What you're calling "the most absurd thing you've ever heard" is something a friend of mine had to personally deal with. While on my mission, I once spoke with an elder who went through the MTC twice since he had been sent home early the first time. He told me he masturbated in the MTC and was sent home for a time to get back on track.

Those are TWO different events right there.

President Kimball thought it was a pretty serious offense when he declared that masturbation can lead to homosexuality

Masturbation Can Lead to Homosexuality

You keep repeating the phrase "forsaking your ministry" which is only partly correct, if a missionary has only been out for a short time (I'm not sure if there is a concrete deadline) he or she CAN return to the field after the issue has been resolved.

I don't appreciate being insulted Vort (sick and twisted view) and I doubt the original poster to this thread would rather see quotes from prophets and apostle than heated opinions.

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Guest saintish

I think Vort is talking about the idea of sending someone home for masturbating and people that think masturbation is tantamount to forsaking your ministry, not you personally

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I agree, that sounds a little iffy.

I don't think it sounds iffy at all. I know personally a missionary who was sent home for this issue (many, many years ago). We have to keep in mind that Mission Presidents set rules and standards for their own local missions. As an example, some Mission Presidents allow their missionaries to listen to classical music while others don't. Some allow missionaries to have dinner with members, while others think they are spending too much time with them, etc etc etc so if a Mission President set the standard that a missionary who masturbates could be sent home, then he can and will. I don't know what's strange about that. Masturbation is addictive so you're not really dealing with a missionary who masturbated for the first time during his mission....no...you are probably having someone who has been doing it for YEARS.

The issue with masturbation isn't only the act in itself but what is the person (in this case missionary) thinking or doing while doing it? Is he watching porn he had access to? If so how? Is he fantasying and with whom? Is his companion aware of the problem? Etc. I don't think anyone masturbates thinking about Mickey Mouse... so I think the issue is much bigger than what people may think and for missionaries who're supposed to be representing Jesus Christ himself, the standard is usually pretty high so I'm not surprised in the least if a Mission President decides to send a missionary home for masturbating.

Edited by Suzie
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President Kimball thought it was a pretty serious offense when he declared that masturbation can lead to homosexuality

Masturbation Can Lead to Homosexuality

That may be even more absurd than sending a missionary home for an incident of masturbation. (repeated and habitual I can understand, but an isolated incident, not so much)

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