Seriousness of masturbation?


dear_john
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Guest saintish

That may be even more absurd than sending a missionary home for an incident of masturbation. (repeated and habitual I can understand, but an isolated incident, not so much)

Jehovahs witnesses still believe that.
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Something I thought was interesting...

I've been reading this book of yogic philosophy (hardly Mormon-focused) and in it, several times, the author referred to moving beyond unhealthy sexual activities such as pornography and masturbation...

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest mysticmorini

What really gets my goat is when people attack the Church, its leaders, or its members, individually or as a group, because of their beliefs (or the wrong perception of their beliefs). And when such attacks come from Latter-day Saints, the disloyalty and hypocrisy gall me.

I hate to bring a dead thread back to life but i thought that the following quote might shed some light on how our critics (and the rest of the world) see these types of statments.

“The thin-skinned and image-conscious Mormon can display immature, isolationist, and defensive reactions to outsiders, perhaps because there is no substantive debate and no “loyal opposition” within their kingdom."-Mormon America

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Guest mysticmorini

I understand your sentiment but I’d say the difference seems to be that there IS loyal opposition within political parties. (ex: Ron Paul for the republicans, and Joe Liberman on the democrats side) one poster seemed to suggest that within the church there is no Loyal opposition (i.e. if one opposes they are a hypocrite and / or disloyal)

I’m not taking a stance one way or the other but I can understand how that type of rhetoric can give ammo to Anti’s

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I understand your sentiment but I’d say the difference seems to be that there IS loyal opposition within political parties. (ex: Ron Paul for the republicans, and Joe Liberman on the democrats side) one poster seemed to suggest that within the church there is no Loyal opposition (i.e. if one opposes they are a hypocrite and / or disloyal)

Just to be clear:

This is indeed my view. There is no such thing as "loyal opposition" in the Lord's kingdom. Acting as such is disloyal and hypocritical.

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I understand your sentiment but I’d say the difference seems to be that there IS loyal opposition within political parties. (ex: Ron Paul for the republicans, and Joe Liberman on the democrats side) one poster seemed to suggest that within the church there is no Loyal opposition (i.e. if one opposes they are a hypocrite and / or disloyal)

I’m not taking a stance one way or the other but I can understand how that type of rhetoric can give ammo to Anti’s

Different structures... The Government is setup to have other parts Check their power and to keep it balanced. Therefore without loyal opposition it would fail.

The church is a Kingdom with a Perfect King, imperfect mortal administrators, and very serious opposition looking for any weakness to destroy it.

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in the case of masterbation, LOL,

experiment: live a life of abstinence (so DON'T do it)

knowledge which cannot be found through debate: you are able to create an incredibly strong life-long pair bond in which all vasopressin receptors & reward pathways are wired to each-other ;)

problem is, sometimes the experiment is hard to do apparently (I wouldn't know, I'm a girl ;)

What does being a girl have to do with it? There probably aren't as many females that masturbate as there are males, but it is a problem for both genders.

Now that the thread has shifted to politics, I suppose I should invoke Hitler so we can just end it. :P

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Loyal opposition a sin?

Hmm, if memory serves, there have been times in our history when Apostles vehemently debated points of doctrine with each other, in addresses as public as General Conference, no less.

Take, for example, the heated rhetoric over Evolution between Joseph F. Smith, and B.H. Roberts/James E. Talmage (seelthis link here for some references). Other cases of well-known disagreements between even prominent church leaders over important doctrines include the controversy over Blacks and the Priesthood, especially between Hugh B. Brown and Harold B. Lee (See Prince, Gregory, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, pgs 60-105). Further public disagreements between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young provide a rather dynamic look at 19th century LDS theology. That these men could (and often did) disagree about doctrine that we might consider fundamental and unchangeable did not necessarily brand dissenters as traitors to their religion. Absent the very voice of God dictating the exact resolution to the question they were debating, they certainly felt free to discuss it roundly.

The spirit of free discussion feels, around here, constrained as of late. I understand the desire on the part of some to stamp out heresy immediately, as they see it, but perhaps this is heavy-handed approach is not correct. Such methods have several possible consequences:

First, if the one dispensing righteous judgment, as he sees it, will (if he is right) not endear others to his cause. Sometimes denouncing sin requires all the boldness and directness of a decapitating blow or withering "Prove yourself right, I dare you" attacks. However, I have become convinced that such an approach is more likely to enlarge wounds than to heal them. What we need is more persuasion, by gentleness and love unfeigned, rather than a show of anger by one who is offended.

Second, if the one dispensing "righteous" judgement is wrong, then he is the heretic himself, attempting to spread priestcrafts and his own doctrine above those of others. He uses this show of confidence to demonstrate his "rightness", which, even if he was in the right, is an ugly display of unrighteous dominion.

So, someone disagrees - okay, fine. Use your powers of persuasion to convince them of your argument. Straw men attacks, attitudes of feigned (or unfeigned) offense, arrogance, and the power of unfettered condescension are not a Christlike way to win souls back for He whose name we (supposedly) bear.

Remember:

"For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

"That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought."

Have patience and compassion on those who do not understand, who wander, who seek healing and not a sword for their wounds. Remember also that, in the end,

"They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine."

(Isaiah 29:20-21, 24)

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  • 1 year later...

I overcame masturbation for nine months, after being threatened with church discipline for it. The day that I gave in again was heartbreaking, and I cried myself to sleep hearing Saturday's Warrior in my head. "Didn't we love him? Didn't we raise him well ... "

Growing up, I always thought I was the only one with this problem. Even when the kids around me talked about "hot" girls, or made dirty jokes, it just amazed me that they could somehow do that without masturbating. They were advancing in the Priesthood, weren't they? What were they doing, lying about it? It was unthinkable.

I tried so hard over the years, but I didn't try hard enough. It was my fault, as always. God was perfect, so if I was still doing this it was because of me. I hated myself, I hated the guilt my abusive father gave me, and I hated that I was the odd one out, who didn't get to go on his mission or go to the temple at all. Who wouldn't be able to marry for eternity, and who would just give in again after less than a year if he somehow became clean. I imagined my wife crying and telling the bishop about my addiction, and hating myself the entire rest of my life. I nearly killed myself.

I finally decided to just accept things the way they were, and try to be the best person I could no matter what. If I couldn't overcome this, then I couldn't overcome this, and I'd still love and help other people. I felt better about myself afterwards.

Last year I realized that I wasn't the problem. But the guilt lingers on, just like the emotional scars from my father's abuse. I hope someday I'll be free of both.

This is exactly what I needed to hear. I've been fighting this for a while and when I give in, the guilt that follows makes me hate myself, to the point where it's accompanied by suicidal thoughts and it becomes very hard to pray and read again for several weeks. I feel incredibly unworthy to the point that I become horrifyingly depressed and undeserving of happiness or prayer. I've been trying to ward off the guilt when I do give in and just move on and return to normal life, without lingering so much on the sin. The more I am reading the scriptures, the more I don't want to commit the sin, but I will still falter and I realize this is part of learning where my boundaries are. I should read a few hours before bed, spend some time becoming inspired and praying. It happens when I lay down and I'm not falling asleep soon enough before my thoughts start wandering in dark places. The more I sulk and shame myself, the more likely I am to commit the sin again rather than I am to learn and grow from it. I know that we should feel regret and sadness after sin, but... I can't creep upon these thoughts as a person who can easily slip into depression when it comes to these things. I'm sure Satan wants us to feel like we can never return to the gospel and that repentance is only achieved by perfection so exhausting and daunting, that we give up just looking upon the face thereof.

I don't want to hate myself everytime I make a mistake. Life has too many opportunities to grow and serve to let the mistakes we make everyday harm us more than it should. I'm still learning about repentance and I think I've been doing it wrong.

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And then another newbie opens a 2 year old thread

as if we didn't have enough recent masturbation threads. :cool:

Just remember, anything besides the one unpardonable sin (denying the witness of the Holy Ghost)you can come back from.

Masturbation, while not right, is IMHO a lot less serious than many other sins, it didn't even make the 10 Commandments.

I'd rather have you do that than kill someone. Please note I am not saying to do it, I just really worry when a young person comes on and says

the guilt that follows makes me hate myself, to the point where it's accompanied by suicidal thoughts

It certainly is NOT worth that. So you messed up, Billions of people mess up daily on one thing or many things -- repent and resolve to do better. If doing better means you do it less often until you can finally give it up, then so be it. Edited by mnn727
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  • 2 months later...

So, what if you are in a marriage where your spouse refuses you? Is it still a sin? Are you just expected then to live the rest of your life married to someone who will not be intimate? Live your life with nothing?

I think, personally and generally, that masturbation and porn, for marrieds in the church is a greater symptom of an even greater problem, one that is never addressed. I think that is often a lack of intimacy from a spouse. One spouse decides that they don't want to be intimate and they have made a choice for you.

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For some reason my edits did not take.

I do not participate in those activities. But I am asking a serious question, if your spouse refuses and shows no affection, you just have to live your life with nothing because someone made a choice for you? After years of nothing, years, then it becomes a frustration that words cannot describe and knowing it will never end. At least in prison you can look forward to getting out of jail at some point.

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In all my years, I have never heard of a person refusing sex on a regular (or even frequent) basis, much less flat out, without cause.

The 4 most common causes are

- Sleep Dep

- Hormonal imbalance

- Depression

- Antidepressants

All 4 treatable.

There are a variety of other causes... That basically get lumped into 1 of 2* categories:

- Physiological

- Psychological

* Theres a maxim in Neurology that if its physiological its psychological & if its psychological its physiological... Because the brain is both & when its affected by one, it affects the other. Which I only bring up because, not knowing your spouse, it MAY be relavent. Ex) Cancer treatment is a physiological cause for loss of libido, but the shame of appearance post treatment is psychological. There are whole year long classes to help cancer survivors rediscover their sexuality (a girlfriend of mine teaches one) that deals not just with the physical challenges (a lot of people have limited mobility or nerve damage), but also the psychological difficulties. Those are why the class is a year long. As it often takes 6-12 months to retrain your brain. The rest can be taught in a single month).

That said... There are HUNDREDS of physiological causes, and HUNDREDS of psychological causes... So I won't try to list them out.

What are your spouse's causes?

(("I just don't want to" is totally valid for random occasions... But consistant refusal means there's at least 1 or more root causes. Most of which are fixable. Not all -mutilation & complete loss of enervation, for example, is something we can't fix. At least, not yet.))

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No one can make a choice for you. They may make a choice that affects you, but you still make the choice on how to react to it.

You can rationalize and justify yourself in committing sin, saying something like "well, i have needs" or "s/he wasn't fulfilling my needs so i went elsewhere." I've heard some say those exact things. I've never been able to get behind the idea that sex is a "need." That does not ring true to me.

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