Angels of Mercy

[crashdown]

Does God send some people to abusive situations (either through birth or marriage) as angels of mercy to break the chain and save future generations?

[daplautz]

I'm confused as to what you mean. Do you mean real people, like mortals? Or real angels?

[JudoMinja]

I think crash is refering to people born into abusive homes or who end up in abusive relationships but are able to break the cycle.

I do not believe people are "sent" anywhere- except when spiritually prompted to go somewhere, but even that is open up to choice. God is all about freedom of choice, and we have exercised the ability to choose for ourselves even in the preexistence. We chose the path of mortality, and I believe it is very possible that we also choose which family we wish to be born into. Those who end up in abusive situations after their birth do so through their own choices as well.

There is such a thing as "foreordination" though, that individuals are placed in certain places at certain times in order to accomplish something. Perhaps we counceled with the Lord before making our choice about where and when we wanted to come to earth, and He offered us certain tasks or responsibilities He believed us capable of accomplishing. Each premortal spirit was matched with their greatest potential situation for growth and contribution. However it worked, I strongly believe that personal choice went above everything else.

[ryanh]

Absolutely. No question in my mind that there are 'saviors' (lower case “s”) foreordained to change a course for posterity. Grand examples of this are Noah, Abraham, Lehi, Joseph of Egypt, and Joseph Smith. I personally feel that others such as Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and founding fathers of the US fit in that category too.

On a much smaller scale, others have callings and personal challenges in life to change the direction of, or end the pattern of, a family line. I am intimately aware of two such circumstances with two individuals. Both times were confirmed to me through the Spirit that the individual was placed in the position that they might prove themselves, and be of service in a way that subsequent generations needed.

I don't believe it is always the case when a person is in a bad situation, but it most certainly happens. Be careful though Crash not to spin it that a person is being sacrificed or punished. Such is not the case. Rather, as Elder Scott put it, it is the Father showing forth great faith in His child knowing their capabilities, and that they will overcome.

[RescueMom]

Children choose to be born into abusive families? wow. just wow. glad to know it's the victims fault.

[Bini]

God is all about freedom of choice, and we have exercised the ability to choose for ourselves even in the preexistence. We chose the path of mortality, and I believe it is very possible that we also choose which family we wish to be born into. Those who end up in abusive situations after their birth do so through their own choices as well.

I find this statement very interesting, especially the bold. Does this apply to other cards in the deck such as homosexuality?

[slamjet]

Sometimes I wonder if we do know what we are getting into. I can see the Lord coming to us and saying something like "I really want you to go into this family. You have shown yourself so capable, so strong and so loyal that I know you will make it through to the end. It will be difficult, you will be hurt, rejected, abused and you will have a lot of painful trials to overcome. But I promise you that I will not forsake you. I will have my Angels surround you and attend to you whenever you need them. I will make sure you are surrounded with my love. Your experience I will use as a tool to help your other friends here, who are not as strong as you, to make it back into my Kingdom. And if you endure it well, your experience will put you ahead of most of my other Children. I also promise you that your treasures in my Kingdom will be more than you can ever imagine. I am so proud of you and love you so dearly. Will you do this for me?"

At least when I look back at my trials and situations, my mistakes and triumphs it seems there is more to it than just being placed into a family just by happenstance.

Edited April 25, 2011 by slamjet

[Bini]

I don't believe the Lord puts us in situations where we are there to "save" others.

The only person who was and is capable of such is Jesus Christ. Yes, we are all dealt with personal trials that we must learn to overcome but I don't believe we are capable of fulfilling the role of the Savior. I also don't believe that the Lord predestined certain people to be "evil" (abusive etc etc) and then encouraged the more righteous of us to be their guardian angel, savior, etc etc. We all have agency and rewinding back into the pre-existence, I believe we all came to this earth in mortal bodies, with the intent to return to our Heavenly Father. However, in this life (as we know it), there are a lot of variables (environment, disorders, temptations) that lead us astray and we become the natural man—imperfect and often times hurting those around us.

Maybe someone has scripture or doctrine that addresses this issue. But that's how I currently feel about the topic.

[Suzie]

Sometimes I wonder if we do know what we are getting into. I can see the Lord coming to us and saying something like "I really want you to go into this family. You have shown yourself so capable, so strong and so loyal that I know you will make it through to the end. It will be difficult, you will be hurt, rejected, abused and you will have a lot of painful trials to overcome. But I promise you that I will not forsake you. I will have my Angels surround you and attend to you whenever you need them. I will make sure you are surrounded with my love. Your experience I will use as a tool to help your other friends here, who are not as strong as you, to make it back into my Kingdom. And if you endure it well, your experience will put you ahead of most of my other Children. I also promise you that your treasures in my Kingdom will be more than you can ever imagine. I am so proud of you and love you so dearly. Will you do this for me?"

At least when I look back at my trials and situations, my mistakes and triumphs it seems there is more to it than just being placed into a family just by happenstance.

How this apply to those who were born into an abusive home and are placed in a dark and lonely basement with no bathroom, daily raped, tortured, beaten, starved for years and finally murdered? (without ever experience happiness or break from the abuse).

Edited April 25, 2011 by Suzie

[NeuroTypical]

Does God send some people to abusive situations (either through birth or marriage) as angels of mercy to break the chain and save future generations?

Dunno. I've heard the notion floated before, but in Catholic circles, not LDS circles. There was a cool haunting movie a while back with a similar notion. The poor posessed girl wandered off into the woods to die, and the Virgin Mary gave her a choice - she could die there, but the demons would go on to posess and torture a lot of other people. Or she could sit there and endure her burdens, and those demons would all be trapped inside her - able to hurt only her. I can understand why folks in horribly traumatic situations may want to believe such things, but I'm aware of no doctrine saying one way or the other.

Of course, in the case of surviving an abusive situation, if someone is going to make this true, they need to break the cycle instead of repeat it.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[applepansy]

I know there are people put in our lives to teach, rather than save, us.

I believe we know where we are going, what will we have to face and we have the opportunity to accept the calling or not.

[slamjet]

How this apply to those who were born into an abusive home and are placed in a dark and lonely basement with no bathroom, daily raped, tortured, beaten, starved for years and finally murdered? (without ever experience happiness or break from the abuse).

Leave it to Suzie to give me something to really think about.

I've really been thinking and seeking about this for the past many hours. First off, I can say that I still stand by my opinion posted earlier. Secondly, I have a strong feeling that the Lord does not forget those who only know torture in this life. God is a just and caring God, and in the eternal cosmic time scale, this is but a micron of time. Even with that, God has a rest especially prepared for those who were subjected to the horrors of abuse in this life. I feel real strongly that because he knows the beginning, the end and everything in between he know where his children will be and their life they will endure. Nothing is happenstance with him. He will provide that rest. Maybe not here, but definitely in the next life.

I know this probably sounds like a bunch of spiritual gobbly gook, but it's what I feel to be correct.

[Bini]

Leave it to Suzie to give me something to really think about.

I've really been thinking and seeking about this for the past many hours. First off, I can say that I still stand by my opinion posted earlier. Secondly, I have a strong feeling that the Lord does not forget those who only know torture in this life. God is a just and caring God, and in the eternal cosmic time scale, this is but a micron of time. Even with that, God has a rest especially prepared for those who were subjected to the horrors of abuse in this life. I feel real strongly that because he knows the beginning, the end and everything in between he know where his children will be and their life they will endure. Nothing is happenstance with him. He will provide that rest. Maybe not here, but definitely in the next life.

I know this probably sounds like a bunch of spiritual gobbly gook, but it's what I feel to be correct.

So how much "agency" do we have? If the Lord knows the past, present and future (which I'm not disagreeing), how much of what we live or choose to live, is actually predestined? I know no one can answer this but it's just another piece of food for thought.

I still stand by my opinion as well.

[JudoMinja]

Children choose to be born into abusive families? wow. just wow. glad to know it's the victims fault.

I, in no way, meant to imply that it is the victims fault. Of course the abuser is responsible for their own actions and decisions. The victim is not at fault for being abused. Choosing to go into a situation fraught with abuse is not the same as being at fault for that same abuse.

I don't know if you've seen anything I posted when I first started coming to this site RescueMom, but I went through some pretty horrible abuse myself. I am not trying to make light of any experience another has gone through. I know how terrible it can be, and I know there are many out there who have been through situations even worse than my own.

Of course it is very wrong to abuse others. Of course it is very wrong to inflict pain and harm to those unable to defend themselves or even understand that there is something better out there. The innocent child (or adult) trapped in an abusive situation is in no way at fault for the harms inflicted upon them.

However- I have learned that it takes two to make an abusive situation- an abuser AND a victim. The choices we make can shape us in ways that make us "easy prey". Predators will not hunt something that could do them terrible harm in return- they will go after the weak ones, the sick ones, the injured ones. If we make ourselves strong and learn what to watch out for, we can avoid becoming a victim.

A child BORN into an abusive home has not had the opportunity to avoid being a victim. A helpless baby is "easy prey" no matter what they do. These spirits chose to enter the situation (or so I believe) in the preexistence. They may not have understood exactly what they would go through, but they at least had some idea what they were getting into. This is no different than the CHOICE anyone else made in the preexistence about the trials they would face in this life. Part of the purpose of our time on this earth is to "suffer" so that we might learn and grow. Choosing to face that adversity does not make us responsible for the choices others make which create such adversity.

Originally Posted by Bini

Originally Posted by JudoMinja

God is all about freedom of choice, and we have exercised the ability to choose for ourselves even in the preexistence. We chose the path of mortality, and I believe it is very possible that we also choose which family we wish to be born into. Those who end up in abusive situations after their birth do so through their own choices as well.

I find this statement very interesting, especially the bold. Does this apply to other cards in the deck such as homosexuality?

I am referring here to people like myself, who ended up in an abusive situation at some point in their life. People who were not born into abuse but later in life chose a relationship with abuse. Sure the choice was not entirely conscious. If I had walked into the relationship knowing I would be manipulated, controlled, terrified, and beaten would I have still made the same choice? Of course not. Of course I did not recognize the deception for what it was at the time. But it was still choices I made that put me in that situation. At any point in that relationship, I could have made a different choice and left.

I'm not sure what you mean by your question though, unless you are trying to ask if I think people choose homosexuality or choose to be born with homosexual feelings? That might be a topic for an entirely different thread.

[Bini]

I'm not sure what you mean by your question though, unless you are trying to ask if I think people choose homosexuality or choose to be born with homosexual feelings? That might be a topic for an entirely different thread.

No question it's a topic for another thread. I have no intentions of derailng the OP. I just wanted to pull in another concept to see where it stood in your line of thinking.

Again, it's a curious subject. At which point do we "choose" and at which point was/is our lives (and everything within) pre-destined. On the spectrum of agency, what side of the scale are we?

[slamjet]

No question it's a topic for another thread. I have no intentions of derailng the OP. I just wanted to pull in another concept to see where it stood in your line of thinking.

Again, it's a curious subject. At which point do we "choose" and at which point was/is our lives (and everything within) pre-destined. On the spectrum of agency, what side of the scale are we?

You are asking a question that cannot be answered. In the mortal realm, we have all the agency in the world. But in a real sense, it's tied to our experiences and passions. But in the eternal realm, where there is no constraint of time, one can go to the beginning as well as the end since it's finite.

[Bini]

You are asking a question that cannot be answered. In the mortal realm, we have all the agency in the world. But in a real sense, it's tied to our experiences and passions. But in the eternal realm, where there is no constraint of time, one can go to the beginning as well as the end since it's finite.

Yes, I think I had previously stated that these are questions that CAN'T be answered. Just thoughts I'm throwing out. Where I was tying in the "we choose our families" concept was to the "how much agency do we have" concept.

[JudoMinja]

No question it's a topic for another thread. I have no intentions of derailng the OP. I just wanted to pull in another concept to see where it stood in your line of thinking.

Again, it's a curious subject. At which point do we "choose" and at which point was/is our lives (and everything within) pre-destined. On the spectrum of agency, what side of the scale are we?

Here's my little idea of how it played out in heaven. I think the Lord laid out for us the situation we would be entering when we came to earth- the family, the body, the environment, etc. We probably asked a bunch of questions like "Will I get to see so-and-so?, Will I have to deal with such-and-such? Will what happened to this person happen to me?" etc. The Lord likely answered with something like "Nothing is certain. All is contingent upon the choices you make in this life and the choices made by those around you. This is what you will enter. This is what I think will give you the lessons you need to grow. When you choose righteously you will be blessed. When you choose unrighteously, you will be faced with more trials. Satan is working hard to deceive you, but if you seek after me I will always guide you aright."

I don't think He tried to tell us what choices we would make and how our lives would pan out. He left the stage open for us so that we could make our own decision.

[Backroads]

its an interesting notion... i don't think anyone was placed anywhere soley for the benefit of others, but there really could be a big picture sort of thing at work.

If we were totally at choice for our placements and situations... I feel like a coward. =D

Edited April 26, 2011 by Backroads
forgot modifier "soley"

[slamjet]

its an interesting notion... i don't think anyone was placed anywhere for the benefit of others, but there really could be a big picture sort of thing at work.

We do not have the benefit of seeing the whole of time and existence and having the eternal mind to see how we all fit together. I know you benefited me on this forum, is that happenstance? Give yourself more credit than that.

If we were totally at choice for our placements and situations... I feel like a coward. =D

You are still young, you have a lot of life left. Give it time because now that you are married and will have more than just yourself to worry about, you will get blindsided with all kinds of stuff. So don't worry, the best is yet to come

[Backroads]

aww... thanks! You've been a huge help to me!

I do need to correct that... when I was typing, I thought I had included "SOLEY for the benefit of others".

[crashdown]

I've stayed quiet because I wanted to hear your answers, some of which are very thought-provoking, and I think you all for your responses.

So now I have another question: if a person does break the cycle of abuse and accomplishes the "mission" they were sent to do, would they have to stay married to their abuser for eternity? Or will they be given the choice to be married to someone else? I'm assuming, of course, that the abuse victim and abuser qualified for the celestial kingdom.

Edited April 26, 2011 by crashdown

[JudoMinja]

I've stayed quiet because I wanted to hear your answers, some of which are very thought-provoking, and I think you all for your responses.

So now I have another question: if a person does break the cycle of abuse and accomplishes the "mission" they were sent to do, would they have to stay married to their abuser for eternity? Or will they be given the choice to be married to someone else? I'm assuming, of course, that the abuse victim and abuser qualified for the celestial kingdom.

While the blessings of exhaltation can only be gained through a celestial marriage, we each qualify for those blessings on an individual basis. It is a blessing that requires two people to obtain, but that will not be lost if one person "renigs".

To me, this means there will likely be a whole lot of people in the celestial kingdom who were married in the temple and kept their covenants, but no longer have a "partner" because their other half did not also keep the covenants. These people will have the opportunity to share the blessings of eternity with others who were worthy and lost their "unworthy spouse".

[classylady]

I've stayed quiet because I wanted to hear your answers, some of which are very thought-provoking, and I think you all for your responses.

So now I have another question: if a person does break the cycle of abuse and accomplishes the "mission" they were sent to do, would they have to stay married to their abuser for eternity? Or will they be given the choice to be married to someone else? I'm assuming, of course, that the abuse victim and abuser qualified for the celestial kingdom.[/quote

If I understand your question correctly, you're saying, that the abuser has repented and qualifies for the Celestial Kingdom, and the abused spouse also qualifies for the Celestial Kingdom. Do they have to remain together in the eternities if they were sealed here on the earth? My understanding has been that we will never be forced to remain with someone that we don't want to be with.

That type of question can also be asked of spouses who were sealed but then later divorced, even when there was no abuse involved--the marriage simply didn't work--or for spouses who never divorced, but were very unhappy and lived in a loveless marriage. Will they be forced to be together in the eternities if their sealing was not canceled while here on earth? So, perhaps the concern is, if we qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, and all our sins are forgiven, and we have forgiven each other our trespasses against each other--and we will love each other as brothers/sisters and sons/daughters of God, will we then be required to remain with each other as husband and wife? Again, my understanding is that we will not be "forced" to do anything against our will, and we will be happy with what is. We will not be "forced" to be with someone we would rather not be with, even if they achieve Celestial status. I believe we will be able to say something along these lines: "I have forgiven you, and love you for who you are, and what you have become, but I do not choose to be with you". Anyone else have other thoughts or ideas on the matter?

Edited April 27, 2011 by classylady

[Bini]

JudoMinja and Classylady, are spot-on. I concur.