Just got endowment and feeling weird about it


starrynight
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Okay, here's my temple story. It is guaranteed to make you feel better. Okay, maybe not. :)

I was Catholic - my husband LDS. My aunt lives 3 miles away from the Orlando Temple. So, we would take vacations to go to Universal Studios/Disney and stay at my aunts'. The first time we did this after we got married, my husband took me to the temple to sightsee. It was cool - when you turn into the street where the LDS bookstore is, you see the temple up on a hill - quite a magnificent sight! Anyway, we walked the temple grounds and there are bushes ringing the building... and when I got closer to the building this black SNAKE stood up over the bushes and stared at me! The bushes were chest high so it seemed like I was face to face with the snake! Being Catholic growing up with the picture of Mother Mary crushing a snake under her heel, I was convinced it was the devil... you couldn't get me anywhere close to a temple after that!

Anyway, years and years later, I get baptized LDS... and so I finally went to the Orlando temple again to do baptisms. And the first time, I was very anxious. But, hey, it went without a hitch, it was great, I felt great... I went and did it again and again.

I got endowed and sealed on the same day, a year after I got baptized. I was 8 months pregnant. I over-estimated on the garments, so I felt like I was wearing parachutes. LOL.

Okay, so I got lost in the ritual stuff. I was just trying to follow along and I can't remember much of what I did so I could reflect on it later. So, I just went with the flow and just let the sanctity of the experience wash over me. I didn't even get to catch exactly what all the stuff was about... Then I saw my husband in his white temple clothes and he was GLOWING... literally. It's kinda like that TV show - Touched By An Angel - where when the angel finally reveals herself she glows. Yeah. Kinda like that. My husband is gorgeous (he was a runway model, hah!), but he never looked more beautiful than when I saw him walk towards me at the temple.

Anyway, coming from the Catholic Church, the temple stuff is mild in comparison! I mean, I used to make palm fronds and shape them into crosses to have them blessed on Palm Sunday then line up every year on Good Friday to kiss the foot of the wooden Jesus on the cross... and every year while I was a child, I would dress up as an angel every single day in May to hold "Flores de Mayo" at the church - where we pray and offer flowers to the Blessed Virgin Mary... then there's the procession of Saints where we have the images of Saints paraded around town. Yeah, LDS temple stuff doesn't even come close.

But, the thing about the Catholic rituals is - I understood what each of them were for. It wasn't the ritual that was important - it was the meaning of it. So that, when I went to the temple to get endowed that first time, I didn't understand the meaning of it yet - so I didn't worry about it, I just concentrated on the sanctity of the event. The next time I went, I got more meaning out of it. Each time I go, I understand more, so it gets even better. And yes, spending an hour or more at the celestial room (I actually fell asleep there the first time - hey, I was pregnant!) is a good way to reflect on the experience and how it fits in with the "rest of the story"...

Okay, about the garments - this is how I look at it. There is NO WAY my husband or I can cheat on each other while wearing our garments. Okay, so say I meet Fabio on the street and he says the right stuff and makes me feel wonderful... yeah, then I take off my clothes and what do I see - garments. ONE, BIG, GIANT, SMACK-DAB, IN-YOUR-FACE REALITY CHECK. Yep! That's one reason I wear garments.

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Have you ever gone and done no proxy work? lol Unfortunately like all temples it can sometimes be who is on staff. I've had many wonderful experiences at the temple. I've also had a couple pretty sour ones.

Also if you notice my first comment I said the fussing was mostly from my husband. He's the type that thinks if you don't get to go from the time it opens till close and do the maximum amount of work then it wasn't a productive day. And we need that type of person. How would the proxy work ever get done if they didn't exist? I can handle it on occasion but not all the time. We had a wonderful experience on our honey moon where we planned a day at the temple. We had about 100 family file names, 50/50 men/women. We went in the morning, got all the baptisms and initiatory, and a hand full of the endowments and sealings done by the end of the day. My husband would love to do that every time we go. I take a different approach to the temple.

Gwen, tell your husband from me, whom I've known since he was a kid, that there is more than one way to serve in the temple. Yes, the work must be done for the dead. But if all we are focusing on is numbers, then we risk becoming Pharisees: doing the letter of the law, but missing the spirit. What good is the temple if we save many dead, but lose our own soul, because we didn't take the time to experience it spiritually for ourselves?

I know for years in Montgomery, especially when we went to Atlanta, that we would often be challenged by our leaders to do X number of sessions every year (I was once challenged to do 50 sessions in a year, living 2.5 hours from the temple in Atlanta). For years, we went with the Lambs and others once a month and spent the whole day rushing from endowment to sealing to endowment, etc. It became very wearying, and I could see how it would be easy to lose track of the Spirit and spiritual things. I will still occasionally do a full day, but mostly just one or two sessions at most. Why? Because I do not want to be a Pharisee. And those are people on those cards, not just names and numbers.

How can we bless our children, and the living around us regarding the temple, if all we can relate to them is that the temple is a place of long hours and dreary work?

It is in the temple that we learn to be like Christ and God. It is where we practice entering into God's presence. But if we enter the Celestial room, only to immediately depart for another session, how can we ever get comfortable with being in God's presence? Moses wanted Israel to climb Sinai and enter into God's presence. However, the people were more interested in remaining out of His presence, busy doing other stuff (D&C 84:19-27). Pharisees are busy doing religious work. The spiritually minded ensure that they do the Lord's work, which includes preparing themselves for spiritual things.

As with the Sabbath, the temple is made for man, and not man for the temple.

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  • 4 months later...

Don't worry, it will settle somehow. My wife is a small lady. They didn't find anything of her size the first time, so she cried all the night after her first day in the temple. She was unhappy about garments for few years, byt that didn't challenge her testimony about the Church or Temple at all. Now, about 10 years passed and she sees everything in the different light.

But, still she had to order unique size garments to suit her body to make her comfortable.

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Okay, I know this thread was dead for 4 months but I just reread it and wanted to comment on this:

Each time I go, I understand more, so it gets even better. And yes, spending an hour or more at the celestial room (I actually fell asleep there the first time - hey, I was pregnant!) is a good way to reflect on the experience and how it fits in with the "rest of the story"...

Each time I go to the temple with my wife we discuss what stood out for each of us. It need not be novel, but I like being able to utilize two brains and understandings in gaining deeper insight. Also, knowing we'll be discussing the ordinance after the fact helps keep me alert to impressions and thoughts that occur to me.

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Also if you notice my first comment I said the fussing was mostly from my husband. He's the type that thinks if you don't get to go from the time it opens till close and do the maximum amount of work then it wasn't a productive day. And we need that type of person. How would the proxy work ever get done if they didn't exist? I can handle it on occasion but not all the time. We had a wonderful experience on our honey moon where we planned a day at the temple. We had about 100 family file names, 50/50 men/women. We went in the morning, got all the baptisms and initiatory, and a hand full of the endowments and sealings done by the end of the day. My husband would love to do that every time we go. I take a different approach to the temple.

Wow, that's an impressive bit of work! I usually plan it out so that I leave by 6am, so I can get home for lunch (a little over an hour away).

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I think to really appreciate the Temple Endowment in its proper perspective you really need to realize its connection with Masonic symbolism. I would do some research on the meanings of signs, tokens, and all other elements and how they relate to their counterparts in Freemasonry, keeping in mind the Nauvoo Saints knew all of these things.

One of the first things I learned when studying the writings of Albert Pike, was that any initiation or ritual, to be effective, must be the opening of a problem. Therefore, you should not understand all of the endowment now, but you now have a basis to start a whole new field of research.

In Hugh Nibley's "Joseph Smith Papyri," the book itself is structured in the same sequence as the Endowment, so that is a good starting point. For masonic symbolism I recommend Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma" and Manly P. Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages" (Both masonic works are public domain and available on the net.)

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I don't think you ever need to leave the teachings of the church to understand the doctrines of the church.

Can masonic teachings help? Maybe. But you can gain perspective about anything from anything.

I was listening to a talk by an LDS Mason and I seem to remember it was said that the Masons have an "apostate" endowment. There was a documentary about Masonry on The History Channel that I thought was very interesting... but I wouldn't use Masonry to help us understand LDS temple teachings.

Masons | Ask Gramps

First, you’d have to be invited to join. Second, you’d need to keep a different perspective on certain Masonic rituals. There will be similarities between Masonic rituals and Temple ordinances. To me, while Joseph Smith learned many things from the Masons, he learned their meaning through revelation. We learn best about their spiritual meaning in the House of the Lord.

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I think to really appreciate the Temple Endowment in its proper perspective you really need to realize its connection with Masonic symbolism. I would do some research on the meanings of signs, tokens, and all other elements and how they relate to their counterparts in Freemasonry, keeping in mind the Nauvoo Saints knew all of these things.

I agree with skippy in disagreeing with this.

We use so-called "Arabic numerals" to represent numbers. Do you suppose that in order to have a deep understanding of mathematics and the nature and use of numbers, one ought to research Arabic linguistics and culture? The two are almost totally disconnected. True, in ancient times the Arabs were the greatest mathematicians (thus we have "algebra" from al jabr "putting back together broken pieces"), but other than getting some historical perspective on some mathematical developments, it won't help you to be a better mathematician.

In the same way, there are Masonic elements that comprise some of the endowment presentation. Studying the origins of these elements (insofar as we are able) may be interesting and even in some sense illuminating, but it will never help us understand the sacred, eternal realities behind those symbols. We use those elements as symbols in the endowment presentation just as we use Arabic numerals as the symbols in mathematics. The origin of the symbols, though interesting, is almost completely unrelated to their use in the presentation.

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I felt the same way when I went through the temple...at first. My father was there as my guide (or whatever you call it), so I had to depend on my trust in him sometimes. But here's the kicker: the past year, I had been extensively (as far as a freshmen college student could) studying the Old Testament. Initiatories were really weird at first, but there at the end, it clicked. I recognized it as a very similar ordinance done for prospective kings done in the OT. The endowment was also really weird to me, but then I recognized that several of the symbols and signs also had an OT basis, many things that I had learned studying Isaiah. Still, there are things I don't understand, but it is coming, slowly.

But all of that stuff is meant to stir your thoughts and feelings. You will learn from it, bit by bit, but the heart of these ordinances is the covenants you are making.

And I agree you don't need to know much about Masonry to understand these things. There are similar symbols, but I didn't know anything about Masonry before then.

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Also, just to add to the thread... don't worry or stress that you don't think you "understand" it all.

About Temple Study TempleStudy.com – LDS (Mormon) Temple Study Blog – Temple Study - LDS Temples, Mormon Temples, Study Blog

What more is there?

Some of us might feel like we know a lot about the temple already. After having attended the temple many times we might even know the ordinances by heart. But there is a much deeper meaning and significance that will open up to us as we attend and study the temple. Elder Boyd K. Packer once told of an experience in the Salt Lake Temple which he had with President David O. McKay:

Not long before he died, when on infrequent occasions he would come to our meetings, he stood one day in the meeting and began to discuss the temple ceremony, the endowment. I will never forget! He stood there in that tall majesty that was typical of him. He had his big, bony hands on his chest and looked at the ceiling as he began to quote the endowment. (We were assembled there in the upper room [of the temple] and it was not inappropriate to discuss that there.) He quoted it at some great length. We were enthralled and inspired and knew we were witnessing a great moment. Then he stopped and looked again at the ceiling for a moment or two. Then he said, “I think I’m finally beginning to understand.” That was very comforting to me. After nearly sixty-four years as an Apostle, he still had things that he was learning. Then we knew we were in the presence of not only the teacher who was teaching, but of a student who was learning.

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I am sometimes envious of past generations who had a much more personal relationship with church leaders. Before the MTC in Provo, there was the LTM (Language Training Mission) in Salt Lake, and temple attendance for missionaries occasionally included a meeting in the Priesthood assembly hall with a Q&A session with an apostle where, within the sacred walls of the temple, all topics could be discussed openly.

And, imagine being able to meet with brother Joseph or brother Brigham and ask such theological and spiritual quandaries.

Now, if you still want guidance or insight, set up a meeting with the temple president or matron where you can discuss such things inside the temple where such discussions are appropriate.

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Now, if you still want guidance or insight, set up a meeting with the temple president or matron where you can discuss such things inside the temple where such discussions are appropriate.

In my tiny experience, such meetings are of very limited usefulness.

While a missionary in the MTC in December 1982 and January 1983, I and my district were privileged to speak with a counselor in the Provo temple presidency. He invited us to ask him any question about the temple, the endowment presentation, the symbols, and so forth. I volunteered to ask him a couple of very specific questions about the meaning of some of the symbols -- nothing wherein I might reveal anything I ought not, mind you, but just some pointed questions. His answer was to become offended that I would ask such questions, suggest that my faith might not be where it should be, and dismiss us. My poor fellow district members looked shell-shocked, and I felt like I should apologize to them for taking the man up on his offer.

Since that time, I have kept such questions very close to the vest, so to speak, and have asked them of few or no other people. It appears that some questions can damage the faith of others, even members of a temple presidency, and ought not to be asked except in private prayer. It was an uncomfortable lesson for a 19-year-old to learn, but one I needed.

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I think to really appreciate the Temple Endowment in its proper perspective you really need to realize its connection with Masonic symbolism. I would do some research on the meanings of signs, tokens, and all other elements and how they relate to their counterparts in Freemasonry, keeping in mind the Nauvoo Saints knew all of these things.

I am surprised to see someone say this. From what I know of the temple rites and Freemasonry, there is obviously a connection, but I never hear LDS say this. I don't have an issue with it (I don't have an issue with Freemasons); people build rites and rituals on what they know and what has meaning for them - to build the temple rituals on Freemasonry just makes sense, considering the people involved.

I am very curious about the endowment and curious as to what my reaction to it will be. I'm not sure that 'all my questions will be answered there' as the church leaders often say, but I am willing to see what the experience is, as an experience, and then what I get from it. I imagine it will take a number of times through the temple to even begin to reach an elementary level of understanding.

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my first time being a year ago so its a bit fresh in the brain. i do recall that temple prep class being useless. i mean worthless. seriously what was the point of several classes that could be summed up as cant talk about it yet. and i was friends with the teacher and i could completely tell he just had this you folks have no idea what your getting into LOL attitude.

and its true LDS folk have no clue what they are walking into.

then of course there was ordering temple clothes which required my mom since she had a valid temple recommend and i didnt and you cant order garments till youve gotten them yourself. so then there was the temple clothing im thinking what the **** is this as she was looking online of what needed to be ordered im just like WHAT?

well i needed to seriously pray about something the first time i went so i fasted too. granted i was clueless didnt know how it was going to work and during the whole thing wondering what i just go myself into. i had heard about the secret names before but the whole what am i doing never clicked till i found out this is where they come from.

the ceremony i was largely blown away from sheer what is this to oh man what did i just sign up for to the cult like ritual like ceremonies of it all. yes TC i agree it feels like a cult ritual in fact i still think that but perhaps ive seen too many horror movies so ill make that connection forever.

also the video is low budget C rated movie quality. really its just corny on all levels lol. the music is great but that video and acting and special effects. geez lol. and the Live action productions just make me go wow in a sarcastic way.

the celestial room is though what takes the cake. i love that room. its really the only part of it all that makes me think its worth it. especially since ive seen the endowment session like 30 times in a year i really dont know what else to get from it i can get something if i stay awake through it and go in with an open mind but generally it still has that feeling.

i also know the temple ritual has changed over the years and i dont feel bad knowing that now that ive gone through the temple and the older one i know was certainly more rough this just makes me wonder why it was even changed? granted i dont question the church being true but it just adds further to my what is going on in the temple? please if you look this up dont let it sway your belief any.

ive also gotten a peak at a holy of holies room since in one temple i went too it was right smack in the middle. thats a whole other level of feeling.

so yes its normal to be floored by it. i still am. i doubt thats changing. i just accept its true. the covenants are real and need to be followed. not to mock it all really but just saying there is a lot of what am i doing going on in there.

i know a guy that just went through for a marriage(he lied badly in fact i heard he was drunk the night before the wedding) he went through the temple and was just like was this? so i think honest going through and dishonest the end result on the first time is a general im lost and clueless.

Edited by beefche
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Having converted To LDS and gone to the temple, this was weird at first for me as well. But I will tell you the more you go temple and understand the promises you made. The less weird you will feel about the garments. Also get with a younger sister at the LDS distribution to help you next time and buy one's that fit well. I know I wear the Carissa kind it holds the tummy in and is more form fitting. I also get the petite size that way they are not hanging out under my skirt. For winter I get the pant’s kind and the look nice and smooth under your slacks much better than the worldly underwear.

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Guest FixingTheWrongs

A lot of cult stigma in the temple arises from the fact that we have very few set prayers and actions outside the temple. Basically the Baptism and Sacrament prayers are the only set prayers non-temple members experience(if I missed another let me know). The rest are prayers and ordinances, where we do have to say certain things in the right order, but you can add blessings or council as directed by the spirit.

The things in the temple, actions and words, have to be repeated exactly as they are given or stated. I was taken aback by this my first time as well, being so used to the way things seemed so "loose" during regular church meetings. After going through for deceased persons a few times things started to make a bit more sense and I got more comfortable.

Yes, the garments do take a bit to get used to.

Edited by FixingTheWrongs
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In my tiny experience, such meetings are of very limited usefulness.

While a missionary in the MTC in December 1982 and January 1983, I and my district were privileged to speak with a counselor in the Provo temple presidency. He invited us to ask him any question about the temple, the endowment presentation, the symbols, and so forth. I volunteered to ask him a couple of very specific questions about the meaning of some of the symbols -- nothing wherein I might reveal anything I ought not, mind you, but just some pointed questions. His answer was to become offended that I would ask such questions, suggest that my faith might not be where it should be, and dismiss us. My poor fellow district members looked shell-shocked, and I felt like I should apologize to them for taking the man up on his offer.

Since that time, I have kept such questions very close to the vest, so to speak, and have asked them of few or no other people. It appears that some questions can damage the faith of others, even members of a temple presidency, and ought not to be asked except in private prayer. It was an uncomfortable lesson for a 19-year-old to learn, but one I needed.

I've had the reverse experience. Yours may have been poor because it was with a larger group, or it could be because the counselor just reacted poorly. When I went to the LA Temple with some fellow missionaries, an Elder confided in me that he wished he could talk more openly about the ordinances so he could get some questions answered. We agreed to talk to the temple president together.

We asked a whole slew of questions, from the Book of Abraham facsimiles to the significance of signs and tokens. He answered what he knew, and admitted what he didn't. I have since made it a practice that when I have a question that calls for someone who either experienced a different version of the ordinances, or has access to the text of the ordinances (or a separate Handbook of Instruction), to ponder it, take it to a member of the temple presidency, and ponder some more.

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Yes, the temple ceremony is one big ordinance so there is an emphasis on making it word perfect. We are used to short ordinances that are either open ended, like a blessing, or short like the sacrament prayer. The baptismal ordnance is very short. The wedding ordinance in the temple is very simple as well. But the endowment is long. and it involves some level of participation. We just aren't used to that. Our Sunday worship is very passive. We can sit in the back and just listen.

But, go to a Catholic Mass and you understand the concept of ritual. I believe it has the same roots as the endowment and it has some audience participation and demonstration, so I can see a very clear similarity there.

Also, I was amazed at how much of scriptural detail was in the temple. After the first time I went, I immediately went to the scriptures and re-read specific chapters that were part of the temple ordinance. And I remember lessons in seminary that touched on various aspects that were clarified in the temple. There were a few things that really opened my eyes to gospel truths.

The funny thing is, if we were Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or other very old traditions of Christianity, we would be far more comfortable with the rituals of the temple. Even more so if we were priests of those faiths since they are the major participants. Christian worship is just so far removed from original truth these days. And in the temple we are all priests and priestesses so it makes sense that we are far less passive in our participation.

Edited by bytebear
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I've had the reverse experience. Yours may have been poor because it was with a larger group,

My MTC district consisted of eight members. It was a bit large for a typical Italian MTC district, but not overly large.

or it could be because the counselor just reacted poorly.

Which is fine; we all have our moments of stupidity, Yours Truly included. What baffles me is that the man openly solicited our questions, assuring us that we could ask anything. Apparently, he meant anything but what I asked.

He answered what he knew, and admitted what he didn't.

Learning to answer "I don't know" seems a basic foundational step on the path to wisdom. I am surprised that the brother in question could be called as a counselor in a temple presidency without having learned this most basic and obvious skill.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Joseph Smith once said, and I am paraphrasing, if Brigham Young knew all that he knew, BY would leave the church. BY said, then do not tell me.

The point being. We are just embryos of an eternal Father. We do not have a clue what he is all about. The temple is all about learning who he is and getting closer to Him. So, yes, it is going to be strange, new, different, etc. Our Father is trying to teach us eternally significant facts about him through limited earthly symbols.

The strangeness is caused by a wide gap in who we think God is and who he really is. Us mortals are very naive.

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i remember my first time I went to the temple for a whole week and went in everyday and spent hours in the temple i absolutly loved it. It was a 12 hr drive to the closest temple. I went up with my one of my best friends and a bishop. they worked in the temple. I was disappointed only cause my best frfiend couldnt be my escort cause she was working, but to my suprise she was in the room waiting for me and that made me happy. it was a grand experience one I will never forget how blessed i was to b be able to be up there for a week and go each day and spend hrs in there.

Edited by Roseslipper
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