When things go wrong; I am losing the battle.

[The_Phoenix]

My doubts and disbeliefs are growing larger by the day. Depression has set in and I prayed that God would just let me go. So I don’t know if there is any hope for me, my friends don’t call anymore (my home teacher stopped coming, because I was asking questions about policy, in short I have been written off) because I have expressed my problems. I missed the Temple dedication due to my Mother-in-law falling around 1:00AM Saturday night.

So I have a question about two things. Why do people do this, pull away like doubt is a contagious? Also we had a missionary leave as a hero, when he did not finish his mission due to struggles he was having, his plaque was taken down (quietly) and no one ever spoke of him again. I found out about eight months later, that he was for the most part ostracized and left the church. The unfinished mission had nothing to do with sin, he was a young black man and heard some anti-Mormon stuff which he had never heard growing up and it messed with his head.

Why don’t we encircle such people (Like me and this young man) and pull them in? Right now my one of my best friends has a son who said he is not going on a mission, and he is getting ostracized as well. Missions are not for everyone; why do our actions drive people away? Far too often when a young man decides not to go on a mission, he ends up leaving the Church for 5 or 6 years until the pressure wears off; If he ever returns.

Found out my son is upset because the girl who said she would wait, now says “Dear John”. So if he comes home (and he seems to be looking for excuses) our entire family will become a plague.

What is to be done, by me and by my friends and Ward?

The words of a poem to make my point:

Outwitted

He drew a circle that shut me out--

Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.

But Love and I had wit to win:

We drew a circle that took him in!

(Edwin Markham)

[Jennarator]

I have noticed this happen, too. I am so sorry to see it and hear about it. I am with you, those people need extra support, not less support.

I can see how it is hard to find the line between support and being pushy, tho. I think people are afraid of being pushy.

[NeuroTypical]

Why do people do this, pull away like doubt is a contagious?

Because we're imperfect sinful humans. It's not a church thing - it's a 'doing time on planet earth' thing. Yes, LDS folks are supposed to be better than that, yes, we often remain imperfect and sinful.

Why don’t we encircle such people (Like me and this young man) and pull them in?

See answer #1.

What is to be done, by me and by my friends and Ward?

Oh - that's a bit more relevant question. First thing - stop confessing other people's sins. It will not make things better for you - it will only make things worse. Spouses who can't break the habit end up divorced. Members of a political affiliation that can't stop dwelling on the negative behaviors of their group memebers, leave the political affiliation. And if you can't stop doing it, you'll be out of church in a year.

Second thing - it takes two to be ostracized. Nobody is barring the church door from you. Nobody is standing guard to make sure you don't get into the church activities. The person getting ostracized can make it the easiest thing in the world for people to want to be far away from you (I know - I did this myself for 6 years). If you wish to enjoy fellowship with your fellow saints, throw yourslf into the many service opportunities our organization offers.

Sorry to see you're hurting. I hope I'm not coming across harsh or anything. I'm giving you the advice I wish someone had given me when I kicked off my six-year bout of inactivity.

LM

[Guest]

Plain FACT:

People don't want to be around downers! It's hard enough finding our own happy that it takes a lot of energy to find happy while wallowing in other people's misery.

Sure, we are supposed to be charitable and immerse ourselves in service to our struggling brethren. Unfortunately our energy is limited. Because, it always ends up sucking us down to the muck and getting us depressed with them!

So, we do the best we can with the amount of energy we have.

Hence all the books out there about surrounding yourself with positive people!

[Guest mormonmusic]

Yes -- this is a problem. Express a few doubts, share some concerns about policy, and you're on the outs -- many people have experienced this. Then, move, and start over as a gung-ho Mormon and you become a stalwhart in the Ward. I don't have an answer to this..except now you know what to give people who express doubts or concern -- give them acceptance, compassion and love, and encourage others to do the same.

[Suzie]

Why do people do this, pull away like doubt is a contagious?

I always say that those who are struggling with doubts or decided to apostatize ("abandonment of a religious belief" definition) in the Church are what I called "Modern Day Lepers".

Why don’t we encircle such people (Like me and this young man) and pull them in?

Because it is easier to encircle those who believe in the same way you do, it doesn't require much effort hence people usually have no problem VT/HT an already active member but don't really wish to venture into the less active folks (again, requires effort).

I believe it makes people uncomfortable to know there is someone who is struggling with doubts and when they make the unfortunate and erroneous association (in some cases) of doubts with anti-mormon material then the person is seen like a total alien.

[Obolus]

Many in the church avoid doubters and questioners because they themselves have doubts and questions that they would rather ignore than face. You're just a bad reminder to these folks.

Why don't we rally around RMs that come home early or gays or pregnant girls? Perhaps because "goodness" is too often projected onto these individuals inappropriately. So when they fail in their personal lives, those who project such nonsense are let down.

Also we had a missionary leave as a hero

A perfect example. High school graduation, state championships, scholastic accomplishments, and being an Eagle scout do not make these kids heroes. They should be treated as individuals with potential, but individuals who for the most part still don't know a Ward Council meeting from a hole in the ground. They should be encouraged as they go on missions, but instead we lionize them. It is antithetical to project myths onto imperfect teenagers, but this is a common practice in our culture because we are not truly into Christ. We are into hype.

When missionaries come home early, they should still be treated like individuals with great potential: to serve in the church, to marry in the temple, to be excellent parents, Etc. But most people in the church will never do this, so it remains a duty of those few who have the empathy to recognize the situation and be appropriately loving.

So, congratulations. You've been blessed with eyes to see. The responsibility for loving normal people has been placed at your feet, and probably by the Lord.

My doubts and disbeliefs are growing larger by the day.

The failures of others can only have bearing upon your belief if your faith has been placed in people. Elder Maxwell stated that church is a "hospital for the sick, not a museum of saints", and I think this is the best way of looking at the Church. Your faith will be on much more stable ground (and more frequently rewarded) if it is only placed upon Jesus Christ and his principles. Avoid hyping up "amazing individuals", General Authorities, your parents, Cleon Skousen, Hugh Nibley, your uncle the "scriptorian", Etc., and you will find your faith to be much more like a rock and much less like the waves of the sea.

[Mute]

My doubts and disbeliefs are growing larger by the day. Depression has set in and I prayed that God would just let me go. So I don’t know if there is any hope for me, my friends don’t call anymore (my home teacher stopped coming, because I was asking questions about policy, in short I have been written off) because I have expressed my problems. I missed the Temple dedication due to my Mother-in-law falling around 1:00AM Saturday night.

So I have a question about two things. Why do people do this, pull away like doubt is a contagious? Also we had a missionary leave as a hero, when he did not finish his mission due to struggles he was having, his plaque was taken down (quietly) and no one ever spoke of him again. I found out about eight months later, that he was for the most part ostracized and left the church. The unfinished mission had nothing to do with sin, he was a young black man and heard some anti-Mormon stuff which he had never heard growing up and it messed with his head.

Why don’t we encircle such people (Like me and this young man) and pull them in? Right now my one of my best friends has a son who said he is not going on a mission, and he is getting ostracized as well. Missions are not for everyone; why do our actions drive people away? Far too often when a young man decides not to go on a mission, he ends up leaving the Church for 5 or 6 years until the pressure wears off; If he ever returns.

Found out my son is upset because the girl who said she would wait, now says “Dear John”. So if he comes home (and he seems to be looking for excuses) our entire family will become a plague.

What is to be done, by me and by my friends and Ward?

The words of a poem to make my point:

There are a lot of factors for why people may not offer support but just because you don't see it doesn't mean they are necessarily not doing this. Not everyone is able to give support as easily as the next person. Each person is different and their situations they are going through are also different. Try not to jump to conclusions about why people are acting the way they are. It's not as easy as it sounds to reach out to people. A lot of people have difficulty with this.

Shyness, not wanting to possibly cause more harm than good and not knowing the person well enough to feel the person would be comfortable enough to talk to them about their problems are just a couple of the reasons people may not go out of their way to talk to others. Sometimes people are having difficulties of their own and it can be hard for someone to worry about the problems of others when they are having difficulties of their own. A lot of people may not know the answers to the questions that are bothering you or may be worried that it will cause them to doubt to hear what is troubling you.

It could even be things so simple as the way you are looking. If you look angry, people are going to stay away from you. It doesn't mean that's how you feel but how you physically look can cause people to stay away from you. Try not to assume the worst. People are often not as bad as we might think.

You can't always be sure people are going to come to your aid. You may wait a long time for people to do what you feel they should do or know what you feel they ought to know. Instead, look for ways you can help them to see this and do it for others. People learn the best by example. If you go out of your way to talk to others you feel are in need or if you try to act with others the way you wish people had acted with you, it may just give you someone to share your concerns with and allow you to acquire a friend in the process.

Look at the people in this life. You see people who are happy and those who are unhappy. Those who are happy and content with their life have a positive influence on everyone around them. They lighten the mood for others and seem to always be able to see the bright side of any situation. They can help you to forget the sadness and worries in your life by instead helping you to focus on the good in life. They always seem to be able to always see the upside to any situation and many times I also find them to not only be very caring towards others but also wonderful listeners.

Not everyone knows how to do this very well though. Sometimes people struggle to know what are the best words to say and they just come across as preaching or judgmental. When really I find the least advice is usually the best advice. You're not trying to solve the problem for them but rather help them solve their own problem. When a person is struggling with their faith, many times the best words are no words at all but instead a good listener. It doesn't hurt to tell them why you believe as you do but never tell them their wrong. It's important not to be forceful with our beliefs onto another person.

I find a lot of times people want to give advice and then get upset because you don't accept what they say as "help". So there for to them, they rationalize it that you never really wanted help to begin with. That is why it is good to find people who you are close to talk to about this. People that are good listeners and try to understand how you feel. But this works both ways. You also have to make sure you're not trying to preach to them as well. No one wants to listen to someone just run down the church. You have to make sure that you're both not coming across as attacking each others personal beliefs or preaching to one another. Honestly, this post is making my head spin because this is a lot deeper of a subject than I wanted to think about right now lol. Given more time, I could word it better and add a lot more. Either way, I hope this helps you. I'm going to sleep!

[Backroads]

I agree with much of what has been said.

It's hard to be around people who are in a constant state of pity party. There comes a time where I either have to absorb all your doubts and issues and forget about my own beliefs or worry about my own problems. I can't take care of you if I can't take care of myself.

We all have doubts. Doubts were one of the things that originally drew me to this forum. But there is something I have noticed: While some people merely want support and understanding if not necessarily the agreement of others, other people find that support and understanding simply aren't good enough. It's hard to be in a position where I am doing my best to love and support someone only to have them looking down on me for my beliefs.

And maybe the aforementioned shouldn't be excuses. Completely selfless service should have no thought for myself.

But why should I sacrifice my own beliefs for yours?

Even so, I think the situations you described are usually not about expecting others to share the same doubts. More often than not, I'm sure the doubters and the early missionaries just want love and support. Perhaps fear of being "attacked" by the doubter can prevent service as well?

Also, few of us are capable of perfect communication. In these situations, people are sensitive. We may not be expressing ourselves correctly, we might not be hearing the other person correctly. It's easy to get further offended.

And maybe simple self-righteousness creeps in. People who mean-well start shaking their fingers. People think you're nothing less than a sinner. It happens.

So, yes, it's easy to feel ostracized. Heck, it's easy to be ostracized for real. And this is wrong. No one here is saying it's right.

But the door swings both ways. People can't wait for others to magically return to the church.

But you can't wait for people to magically invite you back. Are you just going to sit back on pride and hurt and/or bitter feelings and think you are justified in doing so when, let's face it, you have no real proof of what anyone was thinking?

Someone has to make the first move. Why wait for the other person?

[The_Phoenix]

Plain FACT:

People don't want to be around downers! !

Well that message was received loud and clear, so not welcome here either. At least you are honest though. In the future I will talk about kittens and puppies.

[The_Phoenix]

I agree with much of what has been said.

It's hard to be around people who are in a constant state of pity party.

Also thank you for being so honest, but it does help me realize where people who doubt stand in any faith. This thread has been an eye opener.

[The_Phoenix]

I always say that those who are struggling with doubts or decided to apostatize ("abandonment of a religious belief" definition) in the Church are what I called "Modern Day Lepers".

Oh my, you guys are brutally honest.

[The_Phoenix]

There are a lot of factors for why people may not offer support but just because you don't see it doesn't mean they are necessarily not doing this. Not everyone is able to give support as easily as the next person. Each person is different and their situations they are going through are also different. Try not to jump to conclusions about why people are acting the way they are. It's not as easy as it sounds to reach out to people. A lot of people have difficulty with this.

I would think decade’s long friendship would trump this,

[NeuroTypical]

I see people trying to explain human reactions to you phoenix, and I see you taking it as a personal insult and getting yourself all wounded and hurt over the information.

Are you sure that's the most useful reaction?

Edited May 6, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[The_Phoenix]

I see people trying to explain human reactions to you phoenix, and I see you taking it as a personal insult and getting yourself all wounded and hurt over the information.

Are you sure that's the most useful reaction?

No, I am not sure about much anymore. This is why I came to "my people" to ask. "Human Nature", do you ever wonder if we dismiss to much with this phrase. Do we think in the resurrection we will pass through some type of perfection filter. Our doctrine teaches that the same Spirit that we have when we die, can have power over us after we die. Does not leave much to look forward to does it?

[pam]

I feel like I have a lot to look forward to. I've realized that my attitude can influence those around me. I've noticed when I'm negative either no one wants to be around me or the negativity rubs off on those I'm with. A smile is usually returned with a smile.

I've also learned that when someone has a history of posting negative thoughts and feelings all the time, I start to avoid those threads.

It can work both ways.

[Guest]

Well that message was received loud and clear, so not welcome here either. At least you are honest though. In the future I will talk about kittens and puppies.

I stated the general human condition.

Yes, maybe you should start talking about the positive things in life instead of the constant downers. Kittens and puppies are great picker uppers. It will help you gain a better perspective of your situation.

I still don't get what you want them to do. Go down to your level and pick you up? We did that already and it didn't help you. We sent you ooodles of positive energy and you continued to wallow in your whatever-it-is-you-are-wallowing-in. So, obviously, it is not doing you any good. What else can we do?

You're not the only one with problems. We try to reach out to those that need compassion but we can only do it to the point that it doesn't bring us down to that level. It doesn't matter if we've been friends for 50 years! We have to prevent ourselves from going down to the muck.

SURROUND YOURSELF WITH POSITIVE ENERGY... It's a GENERAL RULE OF THUMB. So, yes, you should go find yourself some positive energy to lift you up. But, you can only do it to the point that you don't start bringing those positive people down to the muck with you! So, when you see people starting to drift away, then it's time to do something about that negative energy!

Look at yourself and ask yourself - Do I want to be with me right now? If the answer is No... then you know why your home teacher is not coming by anymore.

Take it as an insult if you want. That's reality. Nobody here is Jesus. We're not living in eternal heaven. We do the best with what we have!

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF EXPECTING OTHER PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOU!

Edited May 6, 2011 by anatess

[RescueMom]

I think the best thing we can do to help those who are struggling is:

1: Not offer advice, they aren't seeking it most of the time (I know this from experience)

2: Don't be judgemental, they are already feeling guilty and confused.

3: Shake their hand, talk to them as you always have.

4: Actually try to live the commandment "as I have loved you love one another" <==its a lot harder than it looks.

Why we don't try to just tell those that are struggling they are loved, and welcome is beyond me. Why we can't discuss troubling issues without becoming defense is beyond me. But we do, and maybe we need to take a look at why we do, we can't change the other person, but we can change our actions towards them.

[Suzie]

Oh my, you guys are brutally honest.

Oh lol lol lol I just realized what I wrote yesterday. I meant to say:

I always say that those who are struggling with doubts or decided to apostatize ("abandonment of a religious belief" definition) in the Church are SEEN AS "Modern Day Lepers".

I hope this clarifies my point. :)

[Guest]

I think the best thing we can do to help those who are struggling is:

1: Not offer advice, they aren't seeking it most of the time (I know this from experience)

2: Don't be judgemental, they are already feeling guilty and confused.

3: Shake their hand, talk to them as you always have.

4: Actually try to live the commandment "as I have loved you love one another" <==its a lot harder than it looks.

Why we don't try to just tell those that are struggling they are loved, and welcome is beyond me. Why we can't discuss troubling issues without becoming defense is beyond me. But we do, and maybe we need to take a look at why we do, we can't change the other person, but we can change our actions towards them.

We do that. It is easy to do that actually. And this forum is actually pretty good at that. So, I would imagine most LDS folks are good at that outside of the forum too.

What makes it hard is when we can't avoid the issue time and time again. For example - if the person who is struggling brings up the struggle majority of the time you talk to them that it starts to sound like a broken record. You can't just ignore that. You have to acknowledge it. Over and over again. Or if you are the home teacher and has to teach gospel principles to one who doesn't believe in it anymore. It takes a lot of energy to stay positive over and over and over... It starts to take its toll on you.

[findingmyway]

Downers is where Jesus Christ did his ministry. I cant be positive and always hang around positive, when I feel down I seek positive, when I see someone down, I try to be the positive. If someone is struggling, I find it helps to tip toe 360 until they are comfortable and ready to talk , but at the same time be positive and to show by example, letting that light shine. I am reminded of the To do and To be talk here.

Phoenix...... Youre unique. We all have our struggles and each person has a level of difficulty they deal with. Whatever is bringing you down, or any person down, HF said he wont put us through something we cant handle. We can get through anything!

[Backroads]

Also thank you for being so honest, but it does help me realize where people who doubt stand in any faith. This thread has been an eye opener.

I guess I need to ask you some specific questions:

When you come to someone of your own faith with doubts, what exactly are you looking for?

Someone just to listen and be there for you?

Someone to completely agree with your thoughts and say you're right about your doubts?

Someone to give you further information?

As for the pity party, that applies to many thigns beyond religion. We are human, we are weak, and we all have problems. It often happens with patients who give up hope: their family and friends can't wait indefinitely for them to stop feeling bad about themselves.

[Suzie]

Downers is where Jesus Christ did his ministry. I cant be positive and always hang around positive, when I feel down I seek positive, when I see someone down, I try to be the positive. If someone is struggling, I find it helps to tip toe 360 until they are comfortable and ready to talk , but at the same time be positive and to show by example, letting that light shine. I am reminded of the To do and To be talk here.

Phoenix...... Youre unique. We all have our struggles and each person has a level of difficulty they deal with. Whatever is bringing you down, or any person down, HF said he wont put us through something we cant handle. We can get through anything!

I wish I could thank this post twice! :)

[The_Phoenix]

I feel like I have a lot to look forward to. I've realized that my attitude can influence those around me. I've noticed when I'm negative either no one wants to be around me or the negativity rubs off on those I'm with. A smile is usually returned with a smile.

I've also learned that when someone has a history of posting negative thoughts and feelings all the time, I start to avoid those threads.

It can work both ways.

So you would like me to leave?

[The_Phoenix]

I stated the general human condition.

Yes, maybe you should start talking about the positive things in life instead of the constant downers. Kittens and puppies are great picker uppers. It will help you gain a better perspective of your situation.

OK 8 weeks ago I bought a puppy. AKC Golden Retriever. Now what?