Children and Sacrament blasphemy?

[Vort]

Lots of angst being expressed over a strongly worded opinion. My take: Chill, folks.

Fact is, lots of us figured we had discovered Deep Truth when we deduced that sacrament is a recommitment to baptismal covenants...and children under 8 don't get baptized...so therefore... Of course, we usually came to this idea around our preteen or teenage years, but so what? I even carried this idea into early adulthood (though I don't think I ever preached this particular doctrine openly to others), discarding it only around the time I went on my mission and sort of rethought a lot of things.

I must say that I'm surprised, and maybe a tiny bit dismayed, that a young woman can start a thread openly disparaging LDS men and asking if they're all perverts, then get support and defense against those guilty of taking too lightly her inflammatory words; yet some of these same people seem to think nothing of criticizing a young man for offering his (admittedly peculiar) interpretation of some doctrines about the sacrament. It certainly seems to me that the latter offense is much less, well, offensive than the former. Is this some sort of sexist behavior based on misplaced gallantry or knee-jerk defensiveness of women, or are some topics (e.g. whether men are pigs) simply more "protected" than others (e.g. whether children should be allowed to take the sacrament)?

I also second whoever mentioned that transubstantiation is not an LDS doctrine in any way, shape, or form. I remember one good sister, a Sunday School teacher, who during my childhood advised us children that if we left the sacrament bread in our mouths before chewing it, it would take on more of the consistency of flesh. I believe she was a Catholic convert. When I told my mom about it (not really thinking one thing or another of it since I had never heard of "the doctrine of transubstantiation", just thinking "this was kinda weird"), she sort of sighed and said not to worry about it.

[ferretrunner]

If children under 8 are not accountable, then they can't commit blasphemy.

Children often have a simple, yet strong faith. If they can understand why sacrement is important and honor it, then they understand enough, IMO.

Jesus also taught not to keep children away from Him.

Not my most organized post but I'm trying.

[Wingnut]

Although the sacrament is for Church members, the bishopric should not announce that it will be passed to members only, and nothing should be done to prevent nonmembers from partaking of it.

CHI 20.4.1

Why should this guideline change for children?

[RipplecutBuddha]

that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son

Hi,

My name is Jeremy and I go to the Mormon Church in Mn.

To day I will be talking about sacrament and children.

Interesting that you say you 'go to the Mormon Church' when most members would just say "I'm a member in MN". No criticizm, just interesting to see.

My purpose of this thread is to give comfort and assurance to those of you choosing not to let children under the age of 8 partake of sacrament.

I wasn't aware that they needed comfort and assurance...most LDS families are free to teach their children as they choose, from what I've seen.

I must stress that every thing I say comes from general authority and makes perfect sense. So don't flame me. They said it not me.

If this isn't the biggest set-up I've ever seen...

I don't let my children partake of sacrament, so don't feel bad. Here is why:

um...were we supposed to feel bad about this?

Quote: Elder Dallin H. Oaks

We are not grounded in the wisdom of the world or the philosophies of men-however traditional or respected they may be. Our testimony of Jesus Christ is based on the revelations of God to His prophets and to us individually.

Ensign Jan 2011

um...this talk is about our beliefs regarding our understanding of God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate and individual persons. I don't see how this has anything to do with the sacrament at all.

What this is saying is that we do not run our church by a tradition system but by wisdom from revelation. So we don't baptize children because we know from the prophets of the Book of Mormon that children under the age 8 are not accountable.

Fair enough, but...*sigh* okay, letting you develop your argument...

No where is there any doctrine that children under 8 should take sacrament. So to allow sacrament to an unbaptized child is a TRADITION or PHILOSOPHY

1. Where does it explicitly state that they should NOT take the sacrament?

2. Confirming a new member during the sacrament meeting following their baptism is also a tradition...is that also forbidden? What about the exact physical method/pattern used by the deacons to pass the sacrament...no revelation on it...is that merely a tradition as well?

Now some will say we prepare children to take sacrament by giving it to them. But this is not a PRACTICE run of blessing the sacrament. It's the REAL sacrament. This FORCES them to partake of the covenant of baptism and they do not require it.

Okay, I gotta throw a flag at this one. The sacrament is not forcing someone to make a covenant. It is a renewal of a covenant previously made. If they haven't made the covenant (which can only happen through the act of baptism) then taking the sacrament is of no effect good or bad in a spiritual sense.

Ask a Mormon this next time he or she brings it up:

Heck, I'll field these questions right now. I'll even number them for ya.

1.Shouldn't we practice BAPTISM too?

2.Why can't we simply practice sacrament at home with house bread?

3.Why can't we simply explain the sacrament in primary?

4.Why give the REAL sacrament to an unprepared child?

5.What covenants are they renewing, since they don't have any yet?

1. I've known people to practice baptisms in a swimming pool. I've done it myself. It's not a bad idea, so long as the prayer isn't used, it's just placing someone underwater very carefully.

2. I don't see a problem with it, though some members might see it as a little odd. Again, so long as the prayer isn't used, no harm/no foul.

3. Um....we do...there have always been lessons on the sacrament in primary

4. Um...we do...so long as they haven't been baptized, it is of no consequence.

5. See...this is the question you should have asked yourself first off. As long as I can remember the answer has always been: None at all...thus the act has no effect upon them in any way.

In truth, the only real answer is that Mormons giving the sacrament to children under 8 are committing a creed or philosophy, since no where in the doctrine of the church does it say children at 8 should not be baptized but SHOULD take the sacrament. Why do it in REVERSE??? It's backwards and confusing. If we are going to give sacrament to children we should be baptizing them since we feel they are ready to partake of the covenant of Jesus Christ!

So far, all you've established is that it is a tradition. Not all traditions are evil just because they aren't mentioned in the scriptures. Secondly, the doctrine has never stated that unbaptized people...children or otherwise...are forbidden from taking the sacrament. I've waited for you to develop your argument, but I just don't see the connections here. Finally, and I apologize for being repetitive here, partaking of the sacrament does not result in making covenants, nor does it bind anyone to baptismal covenants they haven't previously made....through being baptized.

The TRUE Mormon would teach the child about Jesus as is the roll of the guardian of that child. Teach the child about what baptism is, teach the child about what sacrament is, and then tell the child that he or she must wait till 8 years and baptism and then that child may partake of the sacrament. But to do it BACKWARDS is truely foolish and makes our church look bad

If that is your personal belief, that's fine, but I have to inform you that it has no basis in doctrine, whether scriptural, or through modern revelation to God's chosen servants since Joseph Smith. How do I know? Because in all 37 years of my life as a member of the LDS church, I've never heard such a doctrine, nor anything close to it.

Here we are telling all the other churches they don't need to baptize children and here we are giving our children the sacrament of Jesus Christ before they need it! If that's not the most backward hypocrisy I have ever heard. Sorry guys

We don't tell other churches what to preach, practice, or believe. I'm not sure how you get this idea, but like the previous one, it is totally foreign to any teaching I've heard in my life from LDS authority. I also fail to see how this is amusing to you...as a member of the LDS church.

Here is why we need to stay away from doing things out of order and by our OWN intellect and opinion in GOD's church.

something I get the sense you're in the very act of doing right now.

Joseph Smith in History of the church 1:17 states:

Creeds of the churches of that day "were an abomination in his sight"

Now we declare to OTHER churches THEIR creeds are wrong and on the other hand here WE are committing CREEDS that are also an abomination before the lord.

once more, and I quote Joseph Smith here..."We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own concience and allow all men the same, let them worship how, where, or what they may." This idea of preaching to other religions flies in the face of reason. We just don't do it, and it's never encouraged by LDS leadership.

"For I am a God of order"

In conclusion, children obviously should not take of the sacrament. In truth my children will appreciate it a LOT more and it will have a very special meaning for them because they are doing it in ORDER. First baptism THEN partaking of the sacrament.

My children don't need to prepare to take the sacrament by indulging in the REAL sacrament at church an. They are educated right at home on what the sacrament is.

My little boy has even practiced the sacrament in the kitchen with store bought bread. It was very sweet to see him bless it and pass it. And I felt wonderful knowing we were not offending the Lord.

Wait...weren't you just asking earlier if we should do this?

If Catholics can manage it then I think that the LDS church can manage it as well. So stand up for your belief to do it in ORDER and if you get questions just send them a link to this page!

Hope this helps.

-Jeremy

What is the sacrament?

Jesus Christ Instituted the Sacrament

“Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to his Apostles, saying, ‘Take, eat’ (Matt. 26:26). ‘This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me’ (Luke 22:19). In a similar manner he took the cup of wine, traditionally diluted with water, said a blessing of thanks for it, and passed it to those gathered about him, saying: ‘This cup is the new testament in my blood,’ ‘which is shed … for the remission of sins.’ ‘This do in remembrance of me.’ …

Renewing Covenants through the Sacrament - Liahona June 2010

Corinthians 11:27-31 –

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Okay, now it makes a little more sense to me. I assume you are a member of the LDS church, and that you were previously Catholic. There's nothing bad with that in any way, but your reasoning seems to be anchored in nothing besides the fact that the Catholic church won't allow unbaptized persons to participate in communion.

First of all, if that's what the Catholic church wants to do, it's their business, and none of ours as members of the LDS church. They don't answer to us, and we don't answer to them.

Second, and I said it earlier, but if you truly believe that unbaptized children shouldn't partake of the sacrament, that is entirely your right. I have no issue with you believing that in any way. I do, however, take issue with your attempt to establish it as doctrinal because it is not, nor have you given any direct quote that says it is.

Finally, and it's been posted before, but if children before the age of 8 are innocent and sinless, how can partaking of the sacrament cause them to sin? If they are not accountable for their actions prior to the age of 8, then they can theoretically participate in any religious activity in the LDS Church and still remain sinless, sacrament or otherwise.

[rameumptom]

Sacrament is not baptism. We allow non-members to partake of the Sacrament, not because they are practicing for baptism or anything else. But because they are willing to promise to follow Christ to the best of their ability.

Little children do not require the Sacrament for salvation. But then, neither do we. It is a moment wherein we may renew covenants made. But it doesn't mean those who have not made covenants cannot partake of it. It means that those who are willing to follow Christ may partake and be blessed by it. That can include children, who we are commanded in the scriptures to teach the gospel and practices, preparing them for baptism. What better way to learn about baptism and the covenants involved than by teaching the Sacrament?

[slamjet]

Oh, let me clarify this...Blurple as in the color of the sky. And, yes, it can be seen in the summer night time sky in the highlands of Scotland. Absolutely amazing to behold!

And what were you smoking and was it on sale?

[Guest]

Where'd the OP go????

Looks like we got a hit and runner. Hopefully this wasn't his talk or something coz he mentioned he was going to talk about this on Sunday or some such...

If this guy would stand on the podium and spout such nonsense I'm afraid there's gonna be some contention in that sacrament meeting!

Which leads me to my tangent... If someone in your ward gave this as a talk, what do you do?

[rameumptom]

It is the Bishop's responsibility to ensure the purity of doctrine and policy in the ward. If the member were to say this, the Bishop should step up and clarify either during or immediately after the talk (depending on how off the wall it is).

[Guest]

It is the Bishop's responsibility to ensure the purity of doctrine and policy in the ward. If the member were to say this, the Bishop should step up and clarify either during or immediately after the talk (depending on how off the wall it is).

I've never experienced sitting through an off the wall talk or testimony in my 10 years of membership. I wonder how often this happens in the church. I mean having members talk instead of "clergy" can have it's downside.

[prisonchaplain]

Okay...I found the OP to be rather odd in tone. Clearly, s/he expected contention. Yet, I wonder if a slightly modified tone and approach would not have done a world of good. For example...

Why Young Children Should Not Take Sacrament

(Communion* --I'll refer to it this way, since I am actually referiing to the church ordinance as practiced in evangelical churches--guessing that it is similar to Sacrement in LDS wards)

The Apostle Paul warns that we should approach Communion in a worthy manner. Thus, it is common for prayers to be said in advance that, among other things, invite the Holy Spirit to examine our hearts, and to repent of any sins that might come between us and our fellowship with the Father. Additionally, some seem to have taken the Communion as a time to gorge on food, often to the neglect of other members--especially poorer ones. Paul's warning is so strong, he suggests that some had "fallen asleep" (i.e. died) due to their disrespect for Communion.

Considering the seriousness of the service and the soberness of rememberance (Christ's crucifixion and resurrection), is it really wise to have a child who is too young and immature to have been baptized to partake? My children love Jesus with all their hearts. They love him dearly and truly, and I would take offense at any who suggested otherwise. Yet, when I ask my rather precocious 8-year old if she is ready to be baptized, she says yes, but with much hesitation. Will the water be cold? Do I have to say anything? Yes, these are normal, childlike questions. And yet, consider that baptism is, amongst other things, a testimony of our salvation and our love for Jesus. If the child is so immature (not necessarily a negative--simply a matter of development) that their fears about water temperature and public speaking weigh as heavily as their desire to testify...perhaps granting some more time is worthwhile?

My view is colored by the number of times inmates have told me, "Well, I was baptized as a kid, but it didn't mean anything to me. I did it for my parents. I don't hardly remember it" I hate hearing this. I do not want it for my children. Better to wait a bit, for them to mature.

And so...if a child is not quite mature enough developmentally to joyfully participate in water baptism, are they capable of partipating in Communion in a meaningful, sincere, respectful manner? In most cases, I would suggest not.

OKAY...WOULD THIS POST BE RECEIVED ANY BETTER THAN THE OP?

[Jennarator]

Where'd the OP go????

Looks like we got a hit and runner. Hopefully this wasn't his talk or something coz he mentioned he was going to talk about this on Sunday or some such...

If this guy would stand on the podium and spout such nonsense I'm afraid there's gonna be some contention in that sacrament meeting!

Which leads me to my tangent... If someone in your ward gave this as a talk, what do you do?

I once heard someone say that we believe the sacrament changes in your mouth from bread to flesh and from water to blood. That person's talk was interupted for a moment while the bishop corrected him. Then he continued with his talk...

[O2BNSD]

And what were you smoking and was it on sale?

Ohhhh, slamjet, you wound me to the quick!! LOL! No, no, I don't smoke, in fact, can't stand the smell of it. So, let me explain about the uniqueness of the Scottish summer night time sky known as "The Gloaming". So the color Blurple is a cross between blue & purple. In Scotland during the summer time the sun doesn't set until around 10pm & right afterwards it never gets completely dark. Instead, the sky remains a bluish purple in color & is absolutely gorgeous. I wish I knew how to place a picture here, then I could post the picture I took last year. Perhaps I can figure out how to do it & then I'll post the picture that I took. So, you see, slamjet, Blurple can really exist & is a great way to describe the summer night time Scottish sky.

[Guest]

Okay...I found the OP to be rather odd in tone. Clearly, s/he expected contention. Yet, I wonder if a slightly modified tone and approach would not have done a world of good. For example...

Why Young Children Should Not Take Sacrament

(Communion* --I'll refer to it this way, since I am actually referiing to the church ordinance as practiced in evangelical churches--guessing that it is similar to Sacrement in LDS wards)

The Apostle Paul warns that we should approach Communion in a worthy manner. Thus, it is common for prayers to be said in advance that, among other things, invite the Holy Spirit to examine our hearts, and to repent of any sins that might come between us and our fellowship with the Father. Additionally, some seem to have taken the Communion as a time to gorge on food, often to the neglect of other members--especially poorer ones. Paul's warning is so strong, he suggests that some had "fallen asleep" (i.e. died) due to their disrespect for Communion.

Considering the seriousness of the service and the soberness of rememberance (Christ's crucifixion and resurrection), is it really wise to have a child who is too young and immature to have been baptized to partake? My children love Jesus with all their hearts. They love him dearly and truly, and I would take offense at any who suggested otherwise. Yet, when I ask my rather precocious 8-year old if she is ready to be baptized, she says yes, but with much hesitation. Will the water be cold? Do I have to say anything? Yes, these are normal, childlike questions. And yet, consider that baptism is, amongst other things, a testimony of our salvation and our love for Jesus. If the child is so immature (not necessarily a negative--simply a matter of development) that their fears about water temperature and public speaking weigh as heavily as their desire to testify...perhaps granting some more time is worthwhile?

My view is colored by the number of times inmates have told me, "Well, I was baptized as a kid, but it didn't mean anything to me. I did it for my parents. I don't hardly remember it" I hate hearing this. I do not want it for my children. Better to wait a bit, for them to mature.

And so...if a child is not quite mature enough developmentally to joyfully participate in water baptism, are they capable of partipating in Communion in a meaningful, sincere, respectful manner? In most cases, I would suggest not.

OKAY...WOULD THIS POST BE RECEIVED ANY BETTER THAN THE OP?

Of course yes! Because the problem with the OP was not the children and sacrament itself. The problem was passing it off as doctrine and accusing people of blasphemy in the process!

At least your version of the post leaves it open to a differing opinion which would then open up a healthy discussion of the pros and cons of it.

When you're being accused of blasphemy (my kids ate the bread before baptism) it's pretty much game over at that point.

[Guest]

Ohhhh, slamjet, you wound me to the quick!! LOL! No, no, I don't smoke, in fact, can't stand the smell of it. So, let me explain about the uniqueness of the Scottish summer night time sky known as "The Gloaming". So the color Blurple is a cross between blue & purple. In Scotland during the summer time the sun doesn't set until around 10pm & right afterwards it never gets completely dark. Instead, the sky remains a bluish purple in color & is absolutely gorgeous. I wish I knew how to place a picture here, then I could post the picture I took last year. Perhaps I can figure out how to do it & then I'll post the picture that I took. So, you see, slamjet, Blurple can really exist & is a great way to describe the summer night time Scottish sky.

I gotta see this! Upload your photo to photobucket.com and then paste the IMG tags here.

Blurple and kilts....

[slamjet]

Blurple and kilts....

Now THAT sounds vulgar!

[O2BNSD]

I gotta see this! Upload your photo to photobucket.com and then paste the IMG tags here.

Blurple and kilts....

anatess - is that really easy to do? Is there another way to do this? Can I just paste a copy of the picture into the body of a reply? One way or another, I will get that picture into here.

[O2BNSD]

Now THAT sounds vulgar!

Ahhhhhhhh, love a man in a kilt, but definitely not in Blurple!! Need a more masculine plaid!!

[Guest]

anatess - is that really easy to do? Is there another way to do this? Can I just paste a copy of the picture into the body of a reply? One way or another, I will get that picture into here.

Can't just cut and paste a photo into a post unless the photo is somewhere on the Internet...

So yea, photobucket is the easiest way. Just create an account in photobucket and upload photos to your heart's content. It provides you with the IMG tags that you Dan then cut and paste onto tour post here.

I gotta see the blurple! I wonder if Norway has their orple... Orange/purple, get it?

[O2BNSD]

http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r294/pacifica815/Scotland%20Trips/

I think I did it!

[Guest]

Ahhhhhhhh, love a man in a kilt, but definitely not in Blurple!! Need a more masculine plaid!!

isn't that an oxymoron?

[O2BNSD]

Hmmmmmm, I can't seem to get this picture uploaded. Any suggestions?

[O2BNSD]

Ok, let me try this again......

[O2BNSD]

Whoooohoooooo, I did it. Cool, now I can upload other pics here. Thanks, anatess!

[Guest]

Whoooohoooooo, I did it. Cool, now I can upload other pics here. Thanks, anatess!

Yoooohoooo!!! And that's one amazing picture!!! I wouldn't mind having that sky all night long! Except, I think there's a flip side to it where there are very short days- that I would die off of. I need at least 8 hours of bright sunshine a day!

[the_mounts]

RipplecutBuddha

QUOTE:"5. See...this is the question you should have asked yourself first off. As long as I can remember the answer has always been: None at all...thus the act has no effect upon them in any way."

So basically you are saying children don't need sacrament. Thank you.

All I am saying is it seem silly to tell other churches they don't need to do usless things like baptism for children and not consider WE don't need to do silly things like pre baptism sacrament.

We as the church are declaring we follow the truth regardless of opinion. So choosing not to give sacrament to children should follow step very easily since we are not doing something out of order but in an orderly fashion. Just as GOD is a GOD of order and wisdom we also should do things in order and wisdom.

This is all I will say about this topic.

I feel I have said enough. Thanks for reading and all your impute. It hasn't swayed me, but I respect you all and have EDITED my document to reflect your feelings and opinions.

So choose for your self. Maybe you think I'm wrong and you will choose to give your kid sacrament to symbolize the idea of sacrament. OK for you. For me however, if I am going to preach other churches are WRONG for baptism, then I will feel silly giving my kid the sacrament before the covenant has been made.

Edited May 16, 2011 by the_mounts