Popular dance- ugh! What's wrong with me?

[carlimac]

I went to a dance concert tonight. For those who don't know what this is...it's basically a "recital" or performance by a dance studio that teaches mostly girls from 3 to18 yrs of age.

So this is the thing...I live in a very conservative and at least 50% LDS area. I'd say at least 1/2 or more of the girls in the performance were LDS. The owner of the dance studio must be LDS because she asked a guy to say an opening prayer. It was a standard, classic LDS prayer.

BUT then the girls dancing got on stage and performed suggestive and frankly embarrassing moves- even some of the little girls about 6-8 yrs old. There was a little ballet mixed in but most of the dances had music that had a hard beat and lots of little girls gyrating, shaking their booties, shimmying, making pouty faces, etc. My daughter's best friend- the daughter of our home teacher was in the highest competetive group and I was embarrassed by their skimpy costumes and their moves. They were very precise and did a good job at staying together...but it all made me uncomfortable.

So my question is...if it's OK with all these other parents that their daughters are dancing sexy on stage, what's wrong with me? Why am I so uncomfortable with it? Why doesn't it seem like compromised standards to them? It seemed so ...ironic or something that they would start a performance like that with a prayer. I was hoping to see something a little more tame. I was even hoping I'd found a dance studio that I could start my little girls with. But no...not going there.

[mightynancy]

We had a really hard time finding dance classes that were appropriate for our daughter. Tap turned out to be the thing. We found that our city's Parks & Rec department was not only less expensive than studios, but much more mindful of the age of the kids and what's appropriate. Even their hip hop classes are age appropriate; they're fun and funky without being suggestive.

There's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with sexualizing little girls.

[mnn727]

There's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with sexualizing little girls.

100% correct. We are sexualizing young girls to the point that people who should know better don't even protest it.

If your daughter was a part of it I would have a talk with the owner of the studio, if it was a; sister, neice, friends kid, etc, I'd have a talk with the parent.

Children are not little adults. they should be allowed to be children.

------

edited to add I see it was your daughters best friend who is also the daughter of yout Home Teacher -- it would make for an interesting home teaching visit next month if it were me as I would bring it up.

Edited May 22, 2011 by mnn727

[NeuroTypical]

Irish/Celtic dance is another good option.

We settled on gymnastics and martial arts.

[apexviper13]

I went to a dance concert tonight. For those who don't know what this is...it's basically a "recital" or performance by a dance studio that teaches mostly girls from 3 to18 yrs of age.

So this is the thing...I live in a very conservative and at least 50% LDS area. I'd say at least 1/2 or more of the girls in the performance were LDS. The owner of the dance studio must be LDS because she asked a guy to say an opening prayer. It was a standard, classic LDS prayer.

BUT then the girls dancing got on stage and performed suggestive and frankly embarrassing moves- even some of the little girls about 6-8 yrs old. There was a little ballet mixed in but most of the dances had music that had a hard beat and lots of little girls gyrating, shaking their booties, shimmying, making pouty faces, etc. My daughter's best friend- the daughter of our home teacher was in the highest competetive group and I was embarrassed by their skimpy costumes and their moves. They were very precise and did a good job at staying together...but it all made me uncomfortable.

So my question is...if it's OK with all these other parents that their daughters are dancing sexy on stage, what's wrong with me? Why am I so uncomfortable with it? Why doesn't it seem like compromised standards to them? It seemed so ...ironic or something that they would start a performance like that with a prayer. I was hoping to see something a little more tame. I was even hoping I'd found a dance studio that I could start my little girls with. But no...not going there.

Good for you. Unfortunately, there are members of the church that attempt to justify their actions as well as the actions of their family members. You have the right attitude because you seem to want the girls to wear something modest which is what the church teaches. Considering how you describe the dancing and costumes, in my opinion, they might as well have not said a prayer because I don't believe the Holy Ghost would be at a place like that. By the way, I'm a 20 year old guy. I don't care for these girls that go around showing off what they have. I prefer a girl that's modest. It's unreal as to what some of the girls and women wear today including at church. When I find a girl, get married, and have kids, if we have a girl and she decides to dress that certain way other girls dress today she'd be getting her rear-end popped.

Edited May 22, 2011 by apexviper13

[Wingnut]

I have mixed feelings on this scenario. I can see some dance moves as coming across as "sexy" when the intent may be far more innocent. Such moves may promote flexibility and muscle tone, and demonstrate the beauty of the human body as God's creation. I can accept that. Paired with immodest costumes and girls only six years old, it seems less innocent. I may get flamed for this, but I wouldn't have a problem with a 10-year-old in a dance class engaging in such dance moves, provided they are taught in an appropriate context and not with a sexual intent. I also have mixed feelings about modesty when it comes to dance costumes. It's the uniform, and isn't necessarily done with the intent of being immodest or showing the body in a sexual way. I'll admit that there are limits, though.

[Backroads]

I definitly see where you are coming from. While wingnut brings up some excellent points, sometimes there is such a combination of innocent-enough things that I have trouble believing there is anything innocent about it. It just comes off as wrong. There are cases where the little girls just want to be "pretty" and that's fine, but there is a limit. There are some dances that are beautiful when performed by older dancers but are just nasty when performed by little girls.

[carlimac]

Here are two examples. There is this:

And then there is this:

It's not too hard to tell which one is more appropriate. I just looked these up on you tube. There weren't from this recital I went to last night. But the first was more like what I saw than the later.

I agree that dance leotards and swimsuits don't always follow the standards exactly. I'm not so rigid that I can't accept that swimsuits have spaghetti straps and ballet leotards are form fitting. But it's what is done in those uniforms that makes a difference. All of these little girls were talented dancers. It's just sad that the first group was taught movements that children don't (or shouldn't) be doing naturally. I don't think it would go over any better by 10 yr olds or even adults. It's just ugly. My own little girls have never taken dance lessons but still like to dress up and dance around to music. What they do naturally is more like the second video. They would only dance like the first if they were taught that by someone older. It's just shameful to me that little girls are taught moves like in the first video when they have so much talent to naturally and beautifully express themselves. I don't think it's just a matter of personal taste in dance either. I love to watch dance to a jazzy beat and I've seen it done well without immodesty.

Edited May 22, 2011 by carlimac

[Wingnut]

Here are two examples. There is this:

And then there is this:

It's not too hard to tell which one is more appropriate. I just looked these up on you tube. There weren't from this recital I went to last night. But the first was more like what I saw than the later.

Well, just to point out the obvious, these two styles of dance are very different from each other. One of more modern, one more traditional. They're very starkly contrasted. I think a more fair comparison would be to show the first one, and then find an video that shows girls maybe of a similar age, performing a similarly fun and innocent song, but with more modest outfits (these do seem immodest solely for the sake of immodesty) and a little less gyration. Of course traditional ballet will seem "more appropriate," but it doesn't mean that the former style is never appropriate.

Note: I'm not saying that I'm all for "whatever goes" in dance, but this just seems like an inaccurate comparison.

[carlimac]

Well, just to point out the obvious, these two styles of dance are very different from each other. One of more modern, one more traditional. They're very starkly contrasted. I think a more fair comparison would be to show the first one, and then find an video that shows girls maybe of a similar age, performing a similarly fun and innocent song, but with more modest outfits (these do seem immodest solely for the sake of immodesty) and a little less gyration. Of course traditional ballet will seem "more appropriate," but it doesn't mean that the former style is never appropriate.

Note: I'm not saying that I'm all for "whatever goes" in dance, but this just seems like an inaccurate comparison.

I realize that they are different. I showed these two because (if you read my post) I believe children- well little girls from what I've seen (and I have 5 girls) dance more naturally in the more appropriate, classical form. Not to say the little girl in the video didn't need to be taught some of those moves. But what I'm saying is that I believe God approves of the second type of dancing over the first. That's what the Holy Ghost is telling me anyway. And I did say that I enjoy watching dance with a jazzy beat as long as it's not suggestive. If you'd like I'll try to find a clean jazz dance on youtube but you can do that yourself.

[Elphaba]

I realize that they are different. I showed these two because (if you read my post) I believe children- well little girls from what I've seen (and I have 5 girls) dance more naturally in the more appropriate, classical form. Not to say the little girl in the video didn't need to be taught some of those moves. But what I'm saying is that I believe God approves of the second type of dancing over the first. That's what the Holy Ghost is telling me anyway. And I did say that I enjoy watching dance with a jazzy beat as long as it's not suggestive. If you'd like I'll try to find a clean jazz dance on youtube but you can do that yourself.

You've succeeded in demonstrating what you find unacceptable, and I agree with you. Beyond that, unless your idea of acceptable is always a ballet, you don't make any sense.

The little ballet dancer has had far more training than "some of those moves." Nothing you provided shows us how little girls dance naturally without benefit of training.

As for telling Wing to go find a video that demonstrates what you would find acceptable, do you seriously not realize how rude that is? It's your point to prove, and thus your job to find the video.

I actually would like to see such a video, because choosing to show a little ballet dancer as an example of your "acceptable" makes me wonder if you're not being overly critical, but I won't know that unless I see an actual like to like comparison. You brought it up, so you're the one responsible for providing it, not those of us responding to you.

Elphaba

[Wingnut]

I realize that they are different. I showed these two because (if you read my post) I believe children- well little girls from what I've seen (and I have 5 girls) dance more naturally in the more appropriate, classical form. Not to say the little girl in the video didn't need to be taught some of those moves. But what I'm saying is that I believe God approves of the second type of dancing over the first. That's what the Holy Ghost is telling me anyway. And I did say that I enjoy watching dance with a jazzy beat as long as it's not suggestive. If you'd like I'll try to find a clean jazz dance on youtube but you can do that yourself.

Here's the exact same song, with girls who look a year or two older than the ones in your first example:

. The costumes are more appropriate, as is the choreography, but here's the thing: it's the exact same style of dance. The choreography is different, but the style is the same.

Now, if you want to say that you aren't comfortable with jazz dance in your family and that ballet is the only way to go, that's fine. But to say that God does or doesn't approve of one style of dance or another goes beyond personal preference to wide application, and that's not okay. It's not up to you to tell others what God does or doesn't approve of, unless you frame it in reference to your own family.

P.S. I did a simple search on YouTube for "jazz dance recital," and after the first two "featured videos," this was the first hit. The example you came up with doesn't even show up on the first page.

[carlimac]

Sigh!! There is a tendency of some commentors on this forum to rip, shred and otherwise discombobulate an opinion and topic till it no longer resembles the intent of the OP. Let me spell it out again:

1) Some dance performances done by little girls are sexually suggestive in nature. (Shimmying, bumping, gyrating, etc. I'm sure you get the idea. )

2) I attended a dance recital that was begun with a prayer, attended by my home teacher and my daughter's best friend's mother (who is also her YW leader- I failed to mention that detail the first time) where their daughter was dancing in a suggestive manner in a costume that was backless. Other dances included bare midriffs and leotards for developing adolescents without enough support in the chest area.

3) I was uncomfortable with the performance. It felt dark and unwholesome to me.

4) During performance many audience members were cat-calling, cheering and screetching out names when especially vigourous moves were made.

5) After performance, mother of friend is all smiles and says how proud she is of her daughter's performance.

6) I'm inwardly confused at why a mother, YW leader and testimony bearer would be "proud" of such a spectacle.

My own conclusion in watching 5 daughters dance in my living room without any training by "professional" dance teachers is that the kind of movement that comes more naturally to little girls is the kind without sexual overtones. I feel it's really sad and inappropriate that adults teach the OTHER kind of dance motions (as described in #1) to young girls.

Really my only questions were, "What am I missing? When did suggestive dance become something we (as LDS members) start with a prayer and express pride for in observing our young girls."

Really is there any reason to bash that opinion other than the fact that some people on this forum are continually argumentative, overly critical and like to pick on the new guy?

[MorningStar]

I can't imagine a scenario where it would be appropriate for a little girl to gyrate on stage.

[carlimac]

I can't imagine a scenario where it would be appropriate for a little girl to gyrate on stage.

Agreed. I wonder if church members would allow their daughters to dance like that at a ward talent show? I doubt it!

[Jennarator]

Agreed. I wonder if church members would allow their daughters to dance like that at a ward talent show? I doubt it!

I've seem it. One time there was a girl in a ward talent show that danced with nothing but a grass skirt and a coconut bra, maybe a pair of high thigh panties on. And this was NOT a tradional Hawaiian dance. It was to modern, hard base music with rump and chest shaking and even words about drinking beer in the song! The family was so proud after wards. This girl was a tween, and her family was very proud of her.

Now I love to dance, and I see nothing wrong with many dances moves and even costumes that I wouldn't let my children wear on the streets, I would let them dance in, but I draw the line at bare mid sections, really too tight clothes, super short shorts, (like showing cheek) and such. That is way too much for young children....

I also found better luck with the park and rec center dance classes. I even found there dance classes to be tought better, so I decided to take some classes, too. :) Well that was a few years ago. :)

[Wingnut]

Sigh!! There is a tendency of some commentors on this forum to rip, shred and otherwise discombobulate an opinion and topic till it no longer resembles the intent of the OP. Let me spell it out again:

1) Some dance performances done by little girls are sexually suggestive in nature. (Shimmying, bumping, gyrating, etc. I'm sure you get the idea. )

2) I attended a dance recital that was begun with a prayer, attended by my home teacher and my daughter's best friend's mother (who is also her YW leader- I failed to mention that detail the first time) where their daughter was dancing in a suggestive manner in a costume that was backless. Other dances included bare midriffs and leotards for developing adolescents without enough support in the chest area.

3) I was uncomfortable with the performance. It felt dark and unwholesome to me.

4) During performance many audience members were cat-calling, cheering and screetching out names when especially vigourous moves were made.

5) After performance, mother of friend is all smiles and says how proud she is of her daughter's performance.

6) I'm inwardly confused at why a mother, YW leader and testimony bearer would be "proud" of such a spectacle.

My own conclusion in watching 5 daughters dance in my living room without any training by "professional" dance teachers is that the kind of movement that comes more naturally to little girls is the kind without sexual overtones. I feel it's really sad and inappropriate that adults teach the OTHER kind of dance motions (as described in #1) to young girls.

Really my only questions were, "What am I missing? When did suggestive dance become something we (as LDS members) start with a prayer and express pride for in observing our young girls."

Really is there any reason to bash that opinion other than the fact that some people on this forum are continually argumentative, overly critical and like to pick on the new guy?

Carli? I agree with all that. I don't agree with the assessment that because you saw one example of this, that all dance within that style is bad, or that God doesn't approve of it. I'm just trying to show that not all jazz dance (since that's the example you first cited with your "yucky" video) is inappropriate.

[Elphaba]

Sigh!! There is a tendency of some commentors on this forum to rip, shred and otherwise discombobulate an opinion and topic till it no longer resembles the intent of the OP.

. . . .

Really is there any reason to bash that opinion other than the fact that some people on this forum are continually argumentative, overly critical and like to pick on the new guy?

You're overreacting to what I said. I agreed with your example of what was inappropriate. Beyond that, I found your point confusing and asked for further clarification. There's nothing wrong with that.

Elphaba

Edited May 23, 2011 by Elphaba
changed "post" to "point."

[carlimac]

Carli? I agree with all that. I don't agree with the assessment that because you saw one example of this, that all dance within that style is bad, or that God doesn't approve of it. I'm just trying to show that not all jazz dance (since that's the example you first cited with your "yucky" video) is inappropriate.

Where did I say all jazz dance is bad? It's just the suggestive movements and very skimpy costumes that I disapprove of. I realize that there can just as easily be inappropriate actions within ballet and lyrical dance. That's pretty easy to find on youtube, too. My two examples were simply one that was wholesome and clean, and one that was not. Both showed 7-8 yr old girls dancing. I thought ny examples were pretty straightforward.

Edited May 23, 2011 by carlimac

[Dravin]

I realize that they are different. I showed these two because (if you read my post) I believe children- well little girls from what I've seen (and I have 5 girls) dance more naturally in the more appropriate, classical form. Not to say the little girl in the video didn't need to be taught some of those moves. But what I'm saying is that I believe God approves of the second type of dancing over the first.

I'm fairly sure this was parsed (though it wasn't what you intended*) as ballet as a dance form is more appropriate than jazz as a dance form, and in the second case that God approves of ballet over jazz.

* Your intended distinction being sexual versus non-sexual not ballet versus jazz. At least if I'm reading you correctly.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Dravin

[carlimac]

I'm fairly sure this was parsed (though it wasn't what you intended*) as ballet as a dance form is more appropriate than jazz as a dance form, and in the second case that God approves of ballet over jazz.

* Your intended distinction being sexual versus non-sexual not ballet versus jazz. At least if I'm reading you correctly.

Yes!

[Wingnut]

As Dravin says, your intent in that statement was unclear. I interpreted "form" and "type" to mean "style of dance" and I don't think that interpretation is very stretched.

[Guest]

My Boyfriend's Back is really not an appropriate song choice for pre-teens anyway. Having a love-song is one thing - having a boyfriend beat up some dude, is another thing. A dance choreographer usually choreographs to the music so that in itself is already getting iffy.

Here is a very fun, very pre-teen/just-graduated-from-toddler appropriate song and dance of the same jazz form.

You can see here the completely different feel of the dance:

Now, I went to Hawaiian/Tahitian dance school when I was a little kid - both me and my sister danced to "Hawaii Five-O" (Tahitian) and "Don't sleep on the Subway" (Hawaiian) on stage in grass skirt and bikini top with the giant headress. And if you know those dance styles, they're all hip action. We didn't find anything inappropriate with those dances. I'm thinking back to it now and I still don't see it as inappropriate. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't mind her taking Hawaiian and Tahitian dance classes. But, I'm glad I don't have daughters because, yeah, the angst of it all!

[Guest]

P.S.

The first My Boyfriend's Back video kinda reminds me of kiddie beauty pageants. I hate those! I was just talking to a friend of mine and we both agreed that mothers of kiddie beauty pageant contestants can move to Mars and the earth would be a better place for it.

We're sorely prejudiced of course...

[carlimac]

My Boyfriend's Back is really not an appropriate song choice for pre-teens anyway. Having a love-song is one thing - having a boyfriend beat up some dude, is another thing. A dance choreographer usually choreographs to the music so that in itself is already getting iffy.

Here is a very fun, very pre-teen/just-graduated-from-toddler appropriate song and dance of the same jazz form.

You can see here the completely different feel of the dance:

Now, I went to Hawaiian/Tahitian dance school when I was a little kid - both me and my sister danced to "Hawaii Five-O" (Tahitian) and "Don't sleep on the Subway" (Hawaiian) on stage in grass skirt and bikini top with the giant headress. And if you know those dance styles, they're all hip action. We didn't find anything inappropriate with those dances. I'm thinking back to it now and I still don't see it as inappropriate. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't mind her taking Hawaiian and Tahitian dance classes. But, I'm glad I don't have daughters because, yeah, the angst of it all!

That was so fun! Thanks for posting it.