Gay Son


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Antatess is hanging up genetic definition of sex in humans. Per that definition (XX = female, and XY = male) then no, not everyone starts off female, though developmental paths are the same until male sex hormones enter the picture and development takes differing paths.

So whether the statement that we all start off female being correct or not depends on how you define sex, by the genotype or the phenotype.

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Antatess is hanging up genetic definition of sex in humans. Per that definition (XX = female, and XY = male) then no, not everyone starts off female, though developmental paths are the same until male sex hormones enter the picture and development takes differing paths.

So whether the statement that we all start off female being correct or not depends on how you define sex, by the genotype or the phenotype.

Are we taking gender and sex as 2 different things (like we discussed in a different thread, I can't remember which anymore)? I'm using gender here interchangeably with sex... that is the development of testis in the human embryo.

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Are we taking gender and sex as 2 different things (like we discussed in a different thread, I can't remember which anymore)? I'm using gender here interchangeably with sex... that is the development of testis in the human embryo.

I specifically used the word sex to avoid that confusion. I was just pointing out that if one subscribes to a genotypic definition then I was never female, if one subscribes to a phenotypic definition then it isn't unreasonable for me to say I started off female. Just depends on how you define the terms.

That said, as Pam points out, we be off the map and here be dragons.

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I specifically used the word sex to avoid that confusion. I was just pointing out that if one subscribes to a genotypic definition then I was never female, if one subscribes to a phenotypic definition then it isn't unreasonable for me to say I started off female. Just depends on how you define the terms.

That said, as Pam points out, we be off the map and here be dragons.

I wanted to laugh and thank at the same time... :D:D:D

I'm going back to my simple mendelian genetics complete with punnett square determination of genotype and phenotype visual manifestations on ball python morphs. I'll leave the humans to y'all. :D

Back on topic...

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Recently my son, 18, told me that he was gay and that he no longer believes that the church is true. I don't know how to respond or what to say or how to deal with this situation. any suggestions or thoughts?

As other posters have said, the double-whammy of orientation announcement and church rejection is rough, but keeping each issue as seperate as possible might help.

There is an internet group called "It Gets Better" which is targeted towards gay youth and providing support, but there may some inspirational information for families as well. Be careful of "ex-gay" groups, as if someone can "pray away the gay". Not effective and can worsen situations, especially when someone gets married just to prove they're straight.

:)

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There is an internet group called "It Gets Better" which is targeted towards gay youth and providing support.

I think It Gets Better has done more for gay youth than any other organization on the planet, and I support it completely.

But I did want to mention that some of the videos contain language that some LDS people might find offensive. I've probably watched 15 of the videos, and of those, I think two, or at the most, three, had such language.

With that said, I second ChooseTheSun's suggestion, wholeheartedly, particularly if the young man is struggling with the fact that he is gay.

Elphaba

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I think I would have a hard time supporting a gay lifestyle for a child of mine.

I would have the same feelings about supporting a relationship where they are having sex outside of marriage, also.

I don't have children of dating age, so this isn't something I've had to deal with from that angle. I have gay friends, maybe I fall in the realm of not supporting it but not discouraging it either. I'm comfortable around them and hanging out with them. I'm not comfortable discussing sexual aspects of their relationship or seeing them kiss heavily.

I realize that from where I'm coming from right now, this would be discouraging a gay child to have any sort of same sex relationship, and that is a very hard pill to swallow. I have a friend who recently decided that she would rather leave the church and have a same sex relationship rather than be alone for the rest of her life. I can see why they would choose that. I can't support her in that decision, but I'm still there to be her friend and help her out when needed.

When I was living with my boyfriend, my parents were still there for me without encouraging the relationship. When we visited them we weren't allowed to sleep in the same room. We had our disagreements but I am glad my parents stayed firm in their convictions, and we all realized that them doing so didn't mean they loved me less, nor did it affect my personal life unless I wanted it to.

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I have a friend with a 2 young sons. One is 7 and one is 3.

The seven year old is obviously gay.

He loves dressing in princess clothes and playing with dolls.

He sneaks into his mother's make-up while his younger brother is playing with trucks.

Nobody taught him this.

There is no television in the home.

The parents are good parents.

There is nothing to influence this child in this direction.

It is NOT the choice of a 7 year old, and anyone who says that.. well, they're just wrong.

You are wrong. This does NOT mean that boy is gay. It means he's into girls things. There are many men who are gay and are not into girl stuff. It is possible that this boy just likes girl things. He could be a transvestite or a metro-sexual. Or it means neither! It is NORMAL for children to play dress up with their parents stuff, including the parent of opposite gender.

Why is it that when we see boys playing with girl stuff we immediately label them gay, but if girls play with boy stuff they're called tomboys instead of lesbian? Seriously.

Do not prejudge children. Geez.

***

To the OP, you've gotten some awesome advice.

One of the saddest stories I've heard is about a Mormon guy living a homosexual lifestyle and is ostracized by his family. His family *says* he's always welcome, but they won't allow his partner to any family events, so of course, he never goes. Can't say that I'd blame him. If my family told me I was welcome but because I married a nonmember he's not allowed to family events I wouldn't feel welcomed either.

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Guest DeborahC

Hello Ruthie?

First, I'm curious how old you are?

Second, how many children do you have?

Third, how many of your children are gay?

Fourth, did you even read my posts?

I am 60 this year.

I have three sons.

One is gay.

I have watch a LOT of children grow and it is NOT 'normal' for a 7 year old boy to want to put on high heels and make-up. It might be "ok" but it is not a normal thing. Gender identity is "normally" established between the ages of 3 and 6 years old in the mainstream scientific thought. And MOST gay people I've known (and I've know a lot) tell me themselves that they KNEW they were gay by this age, in retrospect. So I don't feel I'm too far off base here.

My 7 year old grandson rolls his eyes and runs if you suggest such a thing!

Regarding being prejudiced... I am probably one of the LEAST prejudice people you'll find on this forum.We are discussing issues - I'm simply making an observation.

My point was not that the child is gay. My point was NOBODY is influencing this child. We allow him to be who he is. His parents are not around gay people regularly. He has a younger brother who does not exhibit the same behaviors. And if he is NOT gay, well.. time will tell. But HOWever he turns out, we love our children the way God makes them.

Unlike another gay friend who recently committed suicide after his strong LDS family and community disowned him because they could not "cure" him. He came to Portland trying to escape their torturous nagging, but they continued to call and tell him he was hell-bound until he felt so broken he chose death.

Sad that...

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Guest DeborahC

By the way - I have another friend who is like this - actually, he's not really a friend, he was my boss. I love these people. They're my constant inspiration.

/QUOTE]

Like what? You love "these people?" What people are those?

Blacks?

Disabled People?

Blind People?

Mexicans?

Russians?

Homosexuals?

Germans?

Or humans?

Which are your constant inspiration?

And regarding hormones in food.. we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Have you ever thought about what happens to all those hormones fed to the meat you eat?

Do you think they just magically disappear somewhere between the butcher and your plate?

Do you really think there is no side affect for the people eating them?

If that is true, then why do people take hormones?

Do you think the estrogen in drinking water (left there from women taking birth control pills) could have an affect on a fetus? There is no safe way to remove it, so it (and plenty of other pharmaceuticals) are in your drinking water. Down the toilet and right into your glass :P

Do you know that methylmercury, a common water pollutant, is a known endocrine disrupter?

Are you aware of the many studies done regarding this matter?

If I posted them, would you even read them?

Edited by DeborahC
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By the way - I have another friend who is like this - actually, he's not really a friend, he was my boss. I love these people. They're my constant inspiration.

Like what? You love "these people?" What people are those?

Blacks?

Disabled People?

Blind People?

Mexicans?

Russians?

Homosexuals?

Germans?

Or humans?

Which are your constant inspiration?

Um...people who are celibate.

Were you not following the thread?

Have you ever thought about what happens to all those hormones fed to the meat you eat?

Do you think they just magically disappear somewhere between the butcher and your plate?

I think they're magically broken down at a chemical level by the very high acidity in your stomach, then by the enzymatic action of your digestive juices.

Hormones saturate all or most of the foods we eat. We would be a mess if all those hormones were abosrbed wholesale into our bloodstream. Digestion renders such things to their constituent parts.

Do you really think there is no side affect for the people eating them?

If that is true, then why do people take hormones?

People take human hormones in a way designed to get them into the bloodstream in an undigested format, through injection or absorption.

Do you think the estrogen in drinking water (left there from women taking birth control pills) could have an affect on a fetus? There is no safe way to remove it, so it (and plenty of other pharmaceuticals) are in your drinking water. Down the toilet and right into your glass :P

Are you aware of the studies done regarding this matter?

If I posted them, would you even read them?

You may be right, but haranguing people about them won't convince anyone. Why not post links to the studies you have seen and let everyone else read them (or not) as they choose?
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Guys... This is a thread on advising/helping someone deal with gay family members...

If you want to discuss hormones or other things that you think might cause problems start your own thread for it in the discussion forums

Edited by estradling75
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To the OP, you've gotten some awesome advice.

One of the saddest stories I've heard is about a Mormon guy living a homosexual lifestyle and is ostracized by his family. His family *says* he's always welcome, but they won't allow his partner to any family events, so of course, he never goes. Can't say that I'd blame him. If my family told me I was welcome but because I married a nonmember he's not allowed to family events I wouldn't feel welcomed either.

As far as my family is concerned, I married a non-member. Yes, my dad didn't talk to me for a year, my brother 2 years. But, I was okay with that. I understood completely why they were that way. I hold no ill-feelings and neither did my husband. We continued to build the relationship with utmost patience and understanding and eventually, the wall broke down. We still can't talk comfortably about religion, so we just avoid that subject. If it does come up and my mom tells me, "I submitted your name to the monastery for prayer for salvation - that you would come back to the church and see the light once more...", I don't hold any ill-feelings or anything at all. Because, I completely understand where she is coming from. 10 years later, we're as close as can be. And my husband has won their hearts.

My parents would probably react worse if they find out they have a child in a homosexual relationship. I can definitely see my parents telling their gay child, I respect your decision to have a homosexual relationship but I would rather that you don't bring your partner to your brother's baptism or some such.

And you know, if I was that child, I would definitely see my parents point-of-view and not push the issue. I'd go to the baptism without my partner.

The thing goes both ways. There are certain things that my parents just can't do no matter how much they love me, so, just like they can't force me to go by what they believe is right, I can't force my choice on them in such a way either.

So, there's definitely lots of talking and loving and understanding and hand-holding and compromise that will need to happen by both parties.

Edited by anatess
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Anatess, my immediate family quickly got over me not marrying someone in the church, interestingly, however, I've had some in laws decide that there is something wrong with me because of it.

To the OP, that makes me think that you'll get some people in the church or other family members looking at you like you are nuts for still showing your son love. But you know what, as long as you are listening to the Spirit's guidance, you'll do fine.

Hello Ruthie?

First, I'm curious how old you are?

Age matters? Really?

Second, how many children do you have?

Third, how many of your children are gay?

Again, what does that have to do with anything?

None of these things (age, number of children, number of gay children) have any bearing on the subject. I think you are looking for superficial reasons to invalidate my comments.

Fourth, did you even read my posts?

Duh.

I am 60 this year.

I have three sons.

One is gay.

And that automatically makes you an expert on judging when a child is gay?

Child development is my field. I know whereof I speak when I say that playing dress up indiscriminately with male and female clothing is normal if the child is not discouraged. They naturally explore roles. It is societal expectations and beliefs that discourage boys from doing anything girly.

:snip:

Regarding being prejudiced... I am probably one of the LEAST prejudice people you'll find on this forum.We are discussing issues - I'm simply making an observation.

Wasn't talking about being prejudiced. I was talking about labeling people. The two are not the same. You can label someone gay and not be prejudice.

My point was not that the child is gay. My point was NOBODY is influencing this child. We allow him to be who he is. His parents are not around gay people regularly. He has a younger brother who does not exhibit the same behaviors. And if he is NOT gay, well.. time will tell. But HOWever he turns out, we love our children the way God makes them.

Yes, of course we love them no matter what.

And OF COURSE that child is being influenced! My daughter LOVES trucks and tanks and things because she saw her father's model tanks all the time. We did not actively encourage it, it was just there.

For all we know this boy identifies strongly with his mother and is roleplaying. It could also be that he has a female imaginary friend. Often times boys will impersonate their imaginary friend instead of simply pretending to see a person who's not there.

My point is that WE DO NOT KNOW what is going on in that kid's head, what his motivations for playing with girly stuff is. Thus, it is necessary to refrain from making judgement calls on his sexual orientation. Pre-judgments change how we act toward someone, albeit subtly.

Unlike another gay friend who recently committed suicide after his strong LDS family and community disowned him because they could not "cure" him. He came to Portland trying to escape their torturous nagging, but they continued to call and tell him he was hell-bound until he felt so broken he chose death.

Sad that...

That is so wrong on so many levels. That family did not act according to Gospel standards.

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Hello Ruthie?

First, I'm curious how old you are?

Second, how many children do you have?

Third, how many of your children are gay?

I am gay. Ruthiechan is right. The fact that he likes pretty glittery things doesn't mean he'll want to sleep with boys when he grows up; more, the fact that somebody doesn't want to crossdress doesn't mean they'll be straight. I never dressed like a boy (it took years for my mom to convince me to wear trousers at all), and look what happened to me. :o Homosexuality isn't about wanting to be the opposite gender, it's just about who you're attracted to.

To the OP, I've been on both sides of this -- I've been the gay child (though I never turned my back on the Church), and I also have a loved one who's living a lifestyle completely incompatible with Church teachings -- this person never was a member, but my husband and I still wobble on the line between endorsing a lifestyle and loving a person. I really feel for you.

The advice in this thread is pretty fantastic. Your son still needs your love, he still needs your company, and he certainly still needs your prayers. You don't have to approve of what he's doing to spend time with him, to have conversations with him, to smile and laugh and joke with him. He's still your son.

Will he come back to the Church in this life? Who knows? It's certainly possible. But whether or not he does, he still needs his mom's love.

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Guest DeborahC

Ok Ruthie . .. I give up :lol:

You win, ok?

I came into the conversation wishing to offer my support to an LDS mother with a gay son, someone I can relate to personally...and I got gobsmacked for a side-comment which was also in support.

You ask if your age and experience are important?

Yes, in my opinion, they are.

My half-century of hands-on experience coupled with the Degrees I hold outrank your "field" as far as I'm concerned.

Your response, "Duh!" speaks volumes.

But that's just my opinion.

Sensibility, I agree that JUST because he wants to play dress up and wear make up doesn't mean he is gay. I climbed trees, drove the tractor, roped bulls and rode motorcycles. I'm not gay. My gay son is not effeminate at all. There are other factors I did not discuss and I think that led to much of the confusion. I apologize for not being more clear. However, whether or not he is gay was not my point.

My point was that nobody is telling the child WHICH sexual preference to choose and it APPEARS he is following his biological make-up rather than a social directive.

That's it.

The result remains to be seen.

Will the boy be gay?

Time will tell...

And in the meantime, continue to love and support your gay children please.

Peace.

Edited by DeborahC
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A return missionary from my ward just gave his homecoming talk in church a few weeks ago and announced that he is gay. I remember thinking to myself - "now there is a brave kid. He must realize that a lot of people in the ward are going to react badly to that." Funny thing was, no one did. (Even the notorious gossipers). Since he made his announcement I have never heard a ward member say anything unkind to or about him. Quite to the contrary, everyone has treated him with a great amount of love and acceptance. I learned through that that church members as a whole have adjusted their sensibilities with regard to this issue in recent times. No longer is it okay for my Uncle to say "those f****s disgust me". he can't expect a laugh and appreciative nod for that kind of talk anymore. The Elders quorum will never discuss / acknowledge that reality one Sunday morning, but a new day is definitely here. The question I have is: What will happen as a result of this shift in attitude? Will members be on the ball enough to understand that the healthy shift is towards accepting / loving individuals regardless of their personal weaknesses? or will a significant number of members take the perilous step of accepting the lifestyle?

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I'm involved in a chat ministry in my denomination. It's an hour bible study and a chance for visitors to ask questions about our church. For the past 6 or 7 years we see about a dozen or more gay lds young men per year asking us how a gay person is treated in our church. They say they afraid or unwilling to return to their church. Although we have the same policies as the lds, and some congregations will reject a gay person, a few of the LDS join us because we are close to change. I don't know what becomes of the others. Perhaps they eventually return. I am sincerely glad that both of our church cultures are changing to be more compassionate and better receivers when a vulnerable person risks coming out among us.

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You ask if your age and experience are important?

Yes, in my opinion, they are.

My half-century of hands-on experience coupled with the Degrees I hold outrank your "field" as far as I'm concerned.

Your response, "Duh!" speaks volumes.

But that's just my opinion.

*laughs*

My original "Duh!" comment was facetious. I find it pretentious when someone asks "have you read my post?"

Age and experience are two very different things.

Thanks for letting me know that you have an ageist attitude. I now better understand a coworker I used to have who refused to divulge his age.

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Putting this out there for enlightenment: I am not under the false impression that being gay hasn't been around since the beginning of man, but it does seem to be much, much, more common now. Do you think besides the small percentage of people who are born with same gender attraction that this is more of a lifestyle choice?

Like for some women it is easier to have the friendship and safety of a woman companion? I really don't understand the part for men, but they certainly escape the marriage and children aspect (usually).

Ok, go, enlighten me. (Oh, and I do have a close gay guy friend, that I used to date in High School actually, and he came out after H. S. and I am under the impression that his may have turned into a "choice" of sorts for him) Thanks!

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  • 4 months later...

look i am a gay non practicing Mormon

and really u probably wont like what i will say ....love him regardless of who he is and who he is with i mean he is your son its not easy being gay .....as i think alot of people like to believe that it is more excepted....all i can say is my left foot it is more excepted have you ever heard of Mathew Sheppard the kid was burned to death tied to a fence becuse he was gay...and what about the kids that are hanging them self because of being bullied over there sexuality....i think jesus said it best when he said he with out sin throw the first stone...what i am saying i dont think god want you condemn him but love him and he will need u to stand by him ...u don't have to agree with him but don't hate who he is trust me if he is telling you that means that he spent years of beating him self up about it literally and figuratively and he is ready to say mom i have tried i am who i am and i need you to love me and love who might become my life partner because its not easy its a hard life and god loves him you should to if Jesus could stand next to a hore and love her you can stand next to a man who loves you and who needs your support. but

i hope you understand that i am not trying to change your view on homsexuality all i am saying is stand by your son and love him for who he is cus i tell you wait the worse pain i felt was when i was condemed by my family ...but not my mom she loves me very much and that is what has kept me fighting for my happeness my moms love cus with out her support i probably would have been dead

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