Question about Moroni.


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I have been informed by the wonderful and wise Pam, that my questions were not dumb after all. And when Pam speaks, I listen.

My questions were;

How long did Moroni live after burying the plates in New York? Once he died, he couldn't exactly go and write about it, so this was still kind of a dumb question, although I did think it possible that he may have told the Prophet at some point during their time together.

Did he walk there or did he have a horse? I knew that anti-mormons like to do the whole "There were no horses in the BoM times in the Americas" and was fully aware that this probably refered to another similar animal or beast of burden.

Where did he travel from? I saw on youtube that some "experts" are thinking that the BoM area is a small stretch of land connecting the US to South America. I was hoping that the awesome people here could confirm that. I don't trust youtube experts, But know that alot of the people here are amazing at these kind of things.

How long did it take for him to get to the place where he buried the plates? The answer seems to be 21 years, not in a straight line though. Please see post 8 below by Blackmarch for more details.

Edited by Lost_one
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Guest tbaird22

1. not pertinent to salvation.

2. also not pertinent to salvation.

3. also also not pertinent to salvation.

4. also also also not pertinent to salvation.

See what im getting at? we don't really need to know these things as much as i need to know how the dinos fit in.

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Posted (edited) · Hidden
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1. not pertinent to salvation.

2. also not pertinent to salvation.

3. also also not pertinent to salvation.

4. also also also not pertinent to salvation.

See what im getting at? we don't really need to know these things as much as i need to know how the dinos fit in.

So is that how you answer every question that doesn't matter in terms of salvation? Some questions are just asked because we're curious to know the answers, no need to so plainly dismiss them like that; you could always just not answer the question if you find it's not worth your time. ;)

Edited by JThimm88
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How long did Moroni live after burying the plates in New York?

Somewhere between a few moments and a few decades -- assuming he buried the plates in New York, a point of which I am not entirely convinced.

Seriously, how would we ever know such a thing?

Did he walk there or did he have a horse?

Again, how might we possibly know? It's very doubtful he had a horse, since horses appear not to have existed in the Americas during the Nephite civilization. The animals identified as "horses" in the Book of Mormon could be any number of large mammals used as beasts of burden and/or food.

Where did he travel from?

Again, how might we know that? I would assume from wherever the Nephites lived, around Zarahemla.

How long did it take for him to get to the place where he buried the plates?

Seriously, not to sound like a broken record, but how would we know this? You might as well ask what color his eyes were or if he was left-handed or had bunions.
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1. not pertinent to salvation.

2. also not pertinent to salvation.

3. also also not pertinent to salvation.

4. also also also not pertinent to salvation.

See what im getting at? we don't really need to know these things as much as i need to know how the dinos fit in.

I often post similar sentiments, but they're usually about "deep doctrine" type things. In this case, I don't see the harm in wondering. It's an interesting subject, though I still stick by my response: that is, we really have no clue.

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C'mon guys. You're no fun.

How long did Moroni live after burying the plates in New York?

At least as long enough to bury them. He's still alive since he showed the Prophet where they were.

Did he walk there or did he have a horse?

Yes.

Where did he travel from?

Somewhere else.

How long did it take for him to get to the place where he buried the plates?

As long as it took. It's tough to write on gold plates while you're walking or riding a horse.

:D:P

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C'mon guys. You're no fun.

At least as long enough to bury them. He's still alive since he showed the Prophet where they were.

Yes.

Somewhere else.

As long as it took. It's tough to write on gold plates while you're walking or riding a horse.

:D:P

I would laugh, But the option is unavailable. :D

I am aware that it has no bearing on our salvation. I was just wondering. As some of you may know, I'm working my way through the scriptures at the moment and in a lot of places it says that "this person" walked x days from here to there and "this person lived x years after this event and then died/was taken by God and such like. I couldn't remember anything like that with Moroni and thought I may have just missed it.

I just realised. When Moroni died, it couldn't have been in the plates, as he was the one who buried them. I am such an idiot. :P

I obviously didn't miss it, because it wasn't there to miss. :huh:

Thanks guys. Even though none of my questions were answerable, I am still greatful that you all took the time to tell me.

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well in regards to the last question, there are year dates posted at the bottom of the page, so it is possible to get an idea how long it was between the last war of the nephites and when he buried the plates. And you could probably sasfely assume that he was traveling for most of that time.

edit here's a response i gave to a question regarding the feasibility of Moroni traveling a long distance;

So from my perspective there is no clear answer as to the actual metal make-up of the plates. However, if all the action took place in a little geographic area in central america in 400AD, then how did Moroni transport the plates 4000 miles north to NY?

that is correct. We do not know the exact makeup of material. We infer from descriptions given by JS and others as well as from Gold alloys that were found to be in use by native americans, at least in supposing it wasn't 100% gold

The nephites were destroyed in AD 400, moroni writes his last words in AD 421.

21 years is a little while to travel, doesn't seem to me to be that hard to imagine happening...

suppose you travel about 7 miles a day for 6 days a week... you'd get about 2,191 miles in a year.

for 21 years would = 46,011 miles and supposing only about a 10th of that was actual progress towards the direction of NY, would = 4,601 miles

it doesnt seem to me that improbable at all.

Something to keep in mind tho- we don't know how far the nephites expanded or how far they were driven before being destroyed, nor do we know the distances of the various colonization or immigration periods that are noted in the BoM.

the questions in the OP are fine questions, but there isn't really anyway of determining answers for most of them outside of revelation, and I can't see why an individual would need to recieve those answers.

Edited by Blackmarch
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well in regards to the last question, there are year dates posted at the bottom of the page, so it is possible to get an idea how long it was between the last war of the nephites and when he buried the plates. And you could probably sasfely assume that he was traveling for most of that time.

The nephites were destroyed in AD 400, moroni writes his last words in AD 421.

21 years is a little while to travel, doesn't seem to me to be that hard to imagine happening...

suppose you travel about 7 miles a day for 6 days a week... you'd get about 2,191 miles in a year.

Something to keep in mind tho- we don't know how far the nephites expanded or how far they were driven before being destroyed, nor do we know the distances of the various colonization or immigration periods that are noted in the BoM.

the questions in the OP are fine questions, but there isn't really anyway of determining answers for most of them outside of revelation, and I can't see why an individual would need to recieve those answers.

I would also assume most of that traveling would be at night. Which would slow his pace also. It doesn't seem to me, that the plates were all that heavy, as they did quite alot of travelling in their time and I assume they would have been designed with that in mind. Wasn't there something about Joseph Smith having to run and hide with them, as people were trying to get them from him? That again says to me that they were not that heavy or at least they were not a burden.

Your right though. Their not questions that an answer would have any bearing on, so they are not important. I was just curious. I know Joseph Smith talked with Moroni quite alot and just assumed Moroni might have talked about some of those things, But then why would he? Re-establishing the church on earth was far more important than chatting about his life.

Edited by Lost_one
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Some dumb questions were here, But they were so dumb the internet could not allow them to exist any longer, so they are gone.

I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused and wish you luck on your quest to find dumb questions in other places.

Regards

The Dumb Question Police

:D:P

They weren't dumb questions at all.

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I would also assume most of that traveling would be at night. Which would slow his pace also. It doesn't seem to me, that the plates were all that heavy, as they did quite alot of travelling in their time and I assume they would have been designed with that in mind. Wasn't there something about Joseph Smith having to run and hide with them, as people were trying to get them from him? That again says to me that they were not that heavy or at least they were not a burden.

Yes joseph smith was almost constantly having to move them or hide them. They probably weighed a bit more than a stack of standard paper of equal thickness, but not so much as to be a hindrance in moving them.

Your right though. Their not questions that an answer would have any bearing on, so they are not important. I was just curious. I know Joseph Smith talked with Moroni quite alot and just assumed Moroni might have talked about some of those things, But then why would he? Re-establishing the church on earth was far more important than chatting about his life.

I dont recall any account where joseph mentioned those specific things, but there would be times when Joseph would discuss more trivial things regarding past prophets such as peter james and john.
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They weren't dumb questions at all.

Thank you Pam. I genuinly thought I just missed something. lthough asking when Moroni died was kinda a dumb question. Exactly who was going to write it in the BoM, with it being buried in the ground? :P

There is an excellent book about Mormon and Moroni by Jerry L. Ainsworth called The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni. I can't remember if it discusses these questions particularly but it gives some really good conjecture about their lives.

Oh! That sounds interesting. Will that be on the churches online store?

Yes joseph smith was almost constantly having to move them or hide them. They probably weighed a bit more than a stack of standard paper of equal thickness, but not so much as to be a hindrance in moving them.

I dont recall any account where joseph mentioned those specific things, but there would be times when Joseph would discuss more trivial things regarding past prophets such as peter james and john.

From reading Joseph Smith History last night it seemed that Moroni wasn't very buddy buddy with the prophet. It came across very much as a teacher/student relationship. Thinking about it, I doubt they talked about anything personal.
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I apologize for my previous, overly curt answer.

We have an image of Moroni lugging 60 pounds worth of gold plates around with him from Zarahemla in Central America to the hill Cumorah in the North American northeast. This popular image is riddled with problems, though:

  • There were many, many, many more plates than just those from which Joseph translated the Book of Mormon. From the very beginning of Lehite civilization, a record was kept on what Nephi called "the large plates", doubtless because they were so much more numerous than his smaller, more intimate spiritual history that he called "the small plates". The small plates were kept updated in detail only for the first generation, by Nephi and his brother Jacob. After that, they were added to only in increasingly smaller (can you say that?) amounts, although they were actively kept for a few hundred years before being filled.

    The large plates, in contrast, were apparently kept in detail for almost the entire 1000-year history of the Nephite nation before they were destroyed. Mormon and his son Moroni almost certainly knew more about the details of the Nephite civilization than any other person or people before or since, because they (primarily Mormon) had access to the extensive history of the large plates and actively abridged and condensed them down to the narrative we have today as the Book of Mormon. Brigham Young described an account given him by Oliver Cowdery (Journal of Discourses 19:39-40):

    "Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates [back into the hill after the translation was completed]. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls."

    It is not reasonable to expect that one man, or even two, could possibly have carried this entire record written on gold plates around with them while fleeing murderous, savage hunter-gatherers. Whether Mormon carried all these plates by hand, alone or with the aid of his son and perhaps others, or whether he used pack animals of some sort, or whether the plates were transported to the New York location through miraculous means, we don't know. But this account as well as the narrative of the Book of Mormon itself suggest a large number of records, not merely one fifty-pound set being lugged around.

  • The plates that Joseph Smith had were never actually stated to have been made of gold. Joseph said that they had "the appearance of gold"; David Whitmer called them "gold plates", but that does not necessarily mean they were made of gold, only that they were gold in color. The plates are uniformly described as weighing 40 to 60 pounds, which would accord roughly with a codex-type book with leaves of hammered gold alloy of the dimensions described. Some LDS scholars suggest that the plates were made of tumbago, a gold/copper alloy that looks like gold but has much better wear characteristics, not being as soft as gold. However this may be, the point is that we know perhaps somewhat less about the nature of the "golden plates" than we sometimes think.

  • There is no very strong evidence that Joseph Smith himself ever referred to the hill where he got the plates as "the hill Cumorah", though his mother Lucy records that he referred to his local area as "Cumorah" and the large hill as "the hill of Cumorah". Many LDS scholars and apologists today suggest that the Book of Mormon "hill Cumorah" was a completely different place, probably located in Central America, with no attachment to the upstate New York location. (This is known colloquially as the "two-Cumorah theory".)
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I have never read that account before, But it makes alot of sense. I don't mean to sound silly, But who is to say that the cave that the Prophet and Cowdrey entered was even physically at the location they entered it. It could have just appeared to be there to their eyes.

Has anyone ever actually done any work on the hill that people believe to be the hill of Cumorah. I suspect they wouldn't find anything but dirt. I just don't think Heavenly Father would actually reveal the real location, even to his Prophet. No offence to Joseph Smith intended, just that even he was human and subject to the same temptations as the rest of us. Could you imagine what all those books would be worth if found?

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I have never read that account before, But it makes alot of sense. I don't mean to sound silly, But who is to say that the cave that the Prophet and Cowdrey entered was even physically at the location they entered it. It could have just appeared to be there to their eyes.

Others have suggested that this was a vision of plates rather than a cave physically located in the modern New York state "hill Cumorah".

Has anyone ever actually done any work on the hill that people believe to be the hill of Cumorah. I suspect they wouldn't find anything but dirt. I just don't think Heavenly Father would actually reveal the real location, even to his Prophet. No offence to Joseph Smith intended, just that even he was human and subject to the same temptations as the rest of us. Could you imagine what all those books would be worth if found?

The hill in upstate New York is a "drumlin" created by glaciers and left over from the last ice age about 20,000 years ago. It is doubtful that the hill's structure would support a cave of any considerable dimension. Like you, I suspect that you could dig the entire hill out right down to the bedrock and find nothing of ancient Nephite records.
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Others have suggested that this was a vision of plates rather than a cave physically located in the modern New York state "hill Cumorah".

The hill in upstate New York is a "drumlin" created by glaciers and left over from the last ice age about 20,000 years ago. It is doubtful that the hill's structure would support a cave of any considerable dimension. Like you, I suspect that you could dig the entire hill out right down to the bedrock and find nothing of ancient Nephite records.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. It would make sense for it to have been a vision, rather than an actual cave.

Even if it was just a vision. It must have been an amazing one. Even the thought of it catches the breath. To have actually seen it, must have been awesome.

For a thread that started with some unanswerable questions, I sure have learnt alot. :)

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...

From reading Joseph Smith History last night it seemed that Moroni wasn't very buddy buddy with the prophet. It came across very much as a teacher/student relationship. Thinking about it, I doubt they talked about anything personal.

no they probably did not have lunch together but Joseph did notice attributes and small details with those he conversed with or had visions of.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. It would make sense for it to have been a vision, rather than an actual cave.

Even if it was just a vision. It must have been an amazing one. Even the thought of it catches the breath. To have actually seen it, must have been awesome.

For a thread that started with some unanswerable questions, I sure have learnt alot. :)

:)

Edited by Blackmarch
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no they probably did not have lunch together but Joseph did notice attributes and small details with those he conversed with or had visions of.

:)

I bet he did. If it was me in those situations, my eyes would be glued to them. I wouldn't wan't to miss a single little detail.
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I understand that there are more plates out there. While just reading the testimony of Joseph Smith he states that he was shown by angel Moroni were the plates were at. He states " on the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable siz, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middel part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth." Having removed the earth, i obtained a lever, which i got fixed under the edge of the sone, and with a little exertion raised it up.." " I looked in and there indeed did i behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger.". I have to believe this account. In addition to this there might have been a cave with the rest of the plates.

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I also have to believe this account and yes I also have no doubt about what they saw concerning the cave, But that doesn't stop it being a possible vision. Just that they were perhaps given a vision of a real place. They might even have visited it in the spirit.

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I understand that there are more plates out there. While just reading the testimony of Joseph Smith he states that he was shown by angel Moroni were the plates were at. He states " on the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable siz, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middel part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth." Having removed the earth, i obtained a lever, which i got fixed under the edge of the sone, and with a little exertion raised it up.." " I looked in and there indeed did i behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger.". I have to believe this account. In addition to this there might have been a cave with the rest of the plates.

Not sure what you think we disbelieve. I accept Joseph's account at face value. Did I (or someone else) give you the impression that I/we did not?
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  • 5 months later...

1. not pertinent to salvation.

2. also not pertinent to salvation.

3. also also not pertinent to salvation.

4. also also also not pertinent to salvation.

See what im getting at? we don't really need to know these things as much as i need to know how the dinos fit in.

Oh noooo! My number one pet peeve type of answer! :P Geez, if I have to bet a buck every time I hear this from a member, I would be a millionaire by now. :D

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