Lazarus and Creation


Recommended Posts

We discussed the story of Lazarus in Sunday School yesterday. I think it is interesting how Lazarus was dead for four days before being brought back to life, back to himself. When a person doesn’t breath or move oxygen to the brain, the neurons are completely destroyed. Some of the tracks still exist in skeleton form, but the cytotoxic process of sodium and calcium rushing into the cells, increased glutamate in the synapses, cellular edema and subsequent breakdown of the cell wall, a pulling back of the neuron’s connections, would leave the brain completely destroyed after 4 days. The return of Lazarus is not like he was in a coma, on a ventilator and the tissue was kept alive and then he woke up. With the story of Lazarus the brain was completely destroyed.

The amazing thing about this miracle then is that Jesus, through God’s power completely “rebuilt” the anatomy of Lazarus’ brain back to where it was before he died. I am assuming that he was Lazarus again, able to sit and eat 6 days before Passover and people recognized him as Lazarus and not some other person. To have him be “Lazarus” again would necessitate the duplication of all the 10,000 connections each of the 86 billion neurons in the exact same connection pattern as before, in the exact same 3 dimensional, spatial relationship to recreate the same Lazarus as was there before in terms of his mannerisms, memories, learned behaviors, speech, action, ability to sit and eat, etc.

The point I am trying to make and consider, ‘out loud’, is that the body of Lazarus was re-created without birth and contained all the learned neuronal pathways and connections of his mortal life. He was not reborn. Therefore it is certainly within God’s power to create an adult body, in his image or whatever image with certain, pre-programmed neuronal pathways containing memories, learned behaviors etc. without birth and from basic organic material. Just as Lazarus body was ‘dust’ after 4 days … there was a little bit of a shell left over, but mostly destroyed.

Just something to ponder ….

Creation does not require a new running of evolution. It may have been a part of it but it is certainly within God’s power to create an adult body and put a spirit into it to bring it to life. I think that is the reason Jesus performed that miracle, so we can “see His glory” and either believe it or like some of the Jews did who even saw it, not believe it. I am not trying to debate whether evolution happens or not, just pointing out that God can make a ‘human’ adult body from scratch (basic organic elements and material), as what happened to Lazarus without having to “procreate” it or rebirth it, as Lazarus was not made a baby upon his return.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest tbaird22

just pointing out that God can make a ‘human’ adult body from scratch (basic organic elements and material), as what happened to Lazarus without having to “procreate” it or rebirth it,

Like he did with Adam?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like he did with Adam?

There have been many discussions on this forum about things like 'did Adam have a belly button?' or 'did Adam have a mother?' etc. as well as evolution in relation to the Genesis story. So, I am just pointing out, that if we believe in this Jesus' miracle of raising Lazarus then we (it seems to me) have to believe that God can make an adult body from scratch (meaning basic materials), that the body doesn't have to be 'birthed' or 'procreated'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We discussed the story of Lazarus in Sunday School yesterday. I think it is interesting how Lazarus was dead for four days before being brought back to life, back to himself. When a person doesn’t breath or move oxygen to the brain, the neurons are completely destroyed. Some of the tracks still exist in skeleton form, but the cytotoxic process of sodium and calcium rushing into the cells, increased glutamate in the synapses, cellular edema and subsequent breakdown of the cell wall, a pulling back of the neuron’s connections, would leave the brain completely destroyed after 4 days. The return of Lazarus is not like he was in a coma, on a ventilator and the tissue was kept alive and then he woke up. With the story of Lazarus the brain was completely destroyed.

The amazing thing about this miracle then is that Jesus, through God’s power completely “rebuilt” the anatomy of Lazarus’ brain back to where it was before he died. I am assuming that he was Lazarus again, able to sit and eat 6 days before Passover and people recognized him as Lazarus and not some other person. To have him be “Lazarus” again would necessitate the duplication of all the 10,000 connections each of the 86 billion neurons in the exact same connection pattern as before, in the exact same 3 dimensional, spatial relationship to recreate the same Lazarus as was there before in terms of his mannerisms, memories, learned behaviors, speech, action, ability to sit and eat, etc.

The point I am trying to make and consider, ‘out loud’, is that the body of Lazarus was re-created without birth and contained all the learned neuronal pathways and connections of his mortal life. He was not reborn. Therefore it is certainly within God’s power to create an adult body, in his image or whatever image with certain, pre-programmed neuronal pathways containing memories, learned behaviors etc. without birth and from basic organic material. Just as Lazarus body was ‘dust’ after 4 days … there was a little bit of a shell left over, but mostly destroyed.

Just something to ponder ….

Creation does not require a new running of evolution. It may have been a part of it but it is certainly within God’s power to create an adult body and put a spirit into it to bring it to life. I think that is the reason Jesus performed that miracle, so we can “see His glory” and either believe it or like some of the Jews did who even saw it, not believe it. I am not trying to debate whether evolution happens or not, just pointing out that God can make a ‘human’ adult body from scratch (basic organic elements and material), as what happened to Lazarus without having to “procreate” it or rebirth it, as Lazarus was not made a baby upon his return.

I think you are on to something. But I also think it is possible you have gone the wrong direction with it. In the scriptures we learn about something called “The Breath of Life”. This has something to do with uniting (joining) a spirit and flesh. It also appears to me that it is possible for a spirit to occupy something physical and thus to have some power of that which is physical.

I have speculated that many unclean spirits may have acquired a “body”. We see from scriptures that from time to time more than one spirit has obtained influence over things physical. Now there is thought that the brain is somehow connected to the spirit which gives control over our body. This is interesting because there is some “possibility” that we are able to operate a body on physical influences beyond the spiritual responses. This is called the natural man.

What I am suggesting is that man is unique in that the body created for him has abilities beyond the “normal” physical. Thus the idea of something physical and spiritual becoming united and defining a “Living” entity. I asked about a “Living G-d” in another thread - perhaps in this thread is another piece of the puzzle of life.

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you are on to something. But I also think it is possible you have gone the wrong direction with it. In the scriptures we learn about something called “The Breath of Life”. This has something to do with uniting (joining) a spirit and flesh. It also appears to me that it is possible for a spirit to occupy something physical and thus to have some power of that which is physical.

I have speculated that many unclean spirits may have acquired a “body”. We see from scriptures that from time to time more than one spirit has obtained influence over things physical. Now there is thought that the brain is somehow connected to the spirit which gives control over our body. This is interesting because there is some “possibility” that we are able to operate a body on physical influences beyond the spiritual responses. This is called the natural man.

What I am suggesting is that man is unique in that the body created for him has abilities beyond the “normal” physical. Thus the idea of something physical and spiritual becoming united and defining a “Living” entity. I asked about a “Living G-d” in another thread - perhaps in this thread is another piece of the puzzle of life.

The Traveler

Thanks,

I agree but I think you are giving more influence to the spirit than most people in this world experience. As a dual being are we 50% controlled by the spirit and 50% by the physical? or is it 25% spirit and 75% physical? or 25% physical and 75% spirit? etc. ... My personal opinion is that the percentage influence of the spirit on our physical is very very small for most. I would say the percentage influence from the spirit is equal to the amount of information you have retained from your previous existence. That would make sense to me. There are some that say they have little glimpses of the past, and so maybe their spiritual influence is slightly stronger. But for the majority of us it is limited to about the amount you would call the "light of Christ." And it can either grow or shrink to obscurity depending on righteousness here. And the influence of the Carnal has to be more than 50% because we are told if we do nothing that the default direction we head is to pull away from Christ and that influence. I'll tell you why I think that ...

1. We have fallen a long ways down, to the point of Moses recognizing we are 'nothing'. And the raise we will experience when we are resurrected is impossible to fully comprehend or explain in earthly terms, as how the Telestial Kingdom is described in the D&C. If we are 50% spiritually influenced, I suppose the fall would have not been that far, only 50%.

2. Identical twins, for the most part, if they grow up in the same environment act very similar. There are some differences but that may be because even though we say "identical" we know they aren't entirely identical because there is some genetic change that takes place after zygotes are formed. Which makes it seem that most if not close to all 'personality' and mannerisms, likes and dislikes etc. come from genetics and environment as when we make those two things the same (as close as possible), the twins appear very similar at least until they separate from environmental influences.

3. Physical changes create great changes in personality. A stroke strategically to the basal frontal lobe or bilateral frontal temporal lobes can dramatically change personality. Medications, drugs, alcohol, lack of oxygen etc. affect personality. Are the momentary affects of chemicals on the spirit, no, they are on the body alone (not talking about chronic use, mental addiction etc.). What about Alzheimers and various other neurodegenerative diseases, all those changed the spirit? No, but they change personality, action, choices, as well as level of accountability.

4. If the spirit was that influential on the physical, why don't we come out talking, or at least soon after coordination and motor development takes place enough to do so, with all the knowledge we learned in the pre-mortal life? Whether the veil is the body itself or it is some other entity, in either case, the veil limits spiritual influence to the point of essentially forgetting all secular learning. Did we not know how to help in forming worlds and learn until we couldn't learn any further without obtaining a body? It is that much, that is kept from our spiritual influence in this life.

This is all for the purpose of God just looking at our 'true-nature'. Which is not based in knowledge but our choices given conflicting influences. To listen to the spiritual influences takes great effort, i.e - it is not readily available. And if we don't practice that ability constantly, which is to endure in faithfulness, it is easily lost. So, that tells me the spiritual influences are tiny ... like a mustard seed.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I am suggesting is that man is unique in that the body created for him has abilities beyond the “normal” physical. Thus the idea of something physical and spiritual becoming united and defining a “Living” entity. I asked about a “Living G-d” in another thread - perhaps in this thread is another piece of the puzzle of life.

The Traveler

One other point ... I think the uniqueness of man is not in the body but the ability of the spirit to unite with the body. Again, as I said above, I think the 'body' we have here is next to nothing, as Moses puts it. It says several times in the scriptures that it will turn back to dust from which it was created. We are also told not to crave after carnal things, which to me includes our body. There are some people in this world (probably many) who define themselves as "their" body (which isn't really theirs because it is just borrowed for a very short time), such as athletes or models or even intellectuals - "their" mind. But if they learn to love "themselves" which is really just their body, something carnal, that is no better than loving money or power or anything else that we define as 'carnal'.

To me, this is how the 'evil spirit' occupies the physical, simply because all things physical pull towards a carnal nature.

The sooner we realize that we are nothing in this world of our own power and ability (including the body we have now) the easier it is to give all glory to God.

I see the body as 'dust' nothing more but I do see the borrowed time we have here in this unique state of both body and spirit as the 'beyond normal physical' that you mention. In that sense, not the body itself but the mortal-body-time, the chance of the opportunity to show our true natures that the body provides as the 'something special'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of possibilities of what could have happened to Lazarus...

1) It's possible that God knew what was going to happen and placed Lazarus into a suspended animation phase for 4 days.

2) Perhaps Lazarus was translated like Moses or the 3 Nephites an then changed into a mortal again.

3) God can heal the sick. Who is to say that He can't heal every single cell in the body. I wouldn't put it past Him.

4) I doubt that God destroyed the tissue that composed Lazarus' body and then created a new body for his Spirit de novo. But If God wanted to do it He probaly could.

I just think that God uses the tools that He has and is not frivolous with His priesthood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of possibilities of what could have happened to Lazarus...

1) It's possible that God knew what was going to happen and placed Lazarus into a suspended animation phase for 4 days.

2) Perhaps Lazarus was translated like Moses or the 3 Nephites an then changed into a mortal again.

3) God can heal the sick. Who is to say that He can't heal every single cell in the body. I wouldn't put it past Him.

4) I doubt that God destroyed the tissue that composed Lazarus' body and then created a new body for his Spirit de novo. But If God wanted to do it He probaly could.

I just think that God uses the tools that He has and is not frivolous with His priesthood.

Thanks, I appreciate your response.

I think the thing that made me think about this the most is that Jesus said to ... was it Mary or Martha, can't remember, that if you believe you will see the 'glory of God', referring to this miracle. If it was just life itself, Mary sees this all around her already, we are already all alive. If it is healing, I think she likely has witnessed that already too. I also think this was more than healing because Jesus wept. I realize a lot think Jesus wept because Lazarus was a close friend which is probably also true but there are many sources that Jesus wept because He is providing such a strong testament to God's power and yet still the Jews did not believe in Him and wanted to kill him. So, he wept for their iniquity. This was a 'bigger' miracle in my eyes than any other before it.

Expanding on the 'glory of God' idea, what about this is the 'glory of God'? Why is bringing back Lazarus who was 'resting', (meaning he was in paradise, not spirit prison, so he is a good guy), moving forward in his steps towards 'the immortality and Eternal Life of man' brought back to a lesser position. It's because the purpose of this was to reveal God's glory, to be a testament that Jesus is the Son of God and will be a witness against all those that don't believe it. There were two other times that Jesus brought back someone to life, why another? This one was different, I think.

The other thing to not forget is that he waited two days, this also showing God's power to create from 'dust'. Otherwise, why do you think he waited 2 days? Only to support the false belief of the people that the spirit hung around for 3 days?

Also, what does 'suspended animation phase' mean?

For response 1, if that is the case, then I think that falls into the category of 'parlor trick' which I don't believe is the case, because Jesus himself said he was dead. I guess 2 could be true but then how did they prepare him for his burial with herbs etc. if he was a translated being, alive. He would have said, 'what are you doing get that off me'. For above reasons I don't think #3 is right either because this wasn't another 'healing' as Jesus said he was dead.

And #4, don't know where you are getting "God destroyed ...", nature destroys, that is the natural process of death. I know you know this 'cause you are in the medical field but for everyone else, the brain starts to form early in gestation and continues to "wire" itself and cell differentiation up until even puberty. That complicated process is gone in 4 days of death, all the working out of how each of the billions of neurons are connected is gone by then. This is why stroke is so devastating, once it is destroyed by 3 to 4 minutes of lack of blood flow then cannot be fixed by natural means. This is a fact that even Lazarus body would have to suffer because Jesus said he was dead, not animated or translated or something else, his spirit was sleeping in paradise.

So, by the time Jesus arrived, Lazarus body was just a shell of organic material, I understand it wasn't completely destroyed but the connections of the neurons were. The only way to bring it back is to rebuild it.

That would be like saying I want to restore a 68' mustang but I can't find an engine for it. Could I just repair it or fix it? No. I would have to rebuild the engine to restore it.

The reason this discussion is interesting to me is that it opens a possible explanation of how we are to receive a 'fullness' of God's glory. If God has the ability to make a body with any set of connections and 'wiring' then it could also include memories and understanding of all the things that have been done in Godly generations. We may not have the knowledge or ability to access or fully understand all of that 'wiring' until we learn, line upon line. But this could be, in part, how we become 'one' with God.

The reason Jesus put this out there is for us to either say "I believe" or not. Saying 'it's possible' is saying it may or may not be true.

Thanks

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And #4, don't know where you are getting "God destroyed ...", nature destroys, that is the natural process of death. I know you know this 'cause you are in the medical field but for everyone else, the brain starts to form early in gestation and continues to "wire" itself and cell differentiation up until even puberty. That complicated process is gone in 4 days of death, all the working out of how each of the billions of neurons are connected is gone by then. This is why stroke is so devastating, once it is destroyed by 3 to 4 minutes of lack of blood flow then cannot be fixed by natural means. This is a fact that even Lazarus body would have to suffer because Jesus said he was dead, not animated or translated or something else, his spirit was sleeping in paradise.

God created the Earth. He controls the laws of physics which make up our material world. Im my mind God is Nature...

Many people believe that our memories are a function of neuron pathways within our cerebrum. I believe that our thought and memories are a function of our spirit. A functional brain just lets these thoughts flow from our spirit to the body.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

God created the Earth. He controls the laws of physics which make up our material world. Im my mind God is Nature...

Many people believe that our memories are a function of neuron pathways within our cerebrum. I believe that our thought and memories are a function of our spirit. A functional brain just lets these thoughts flow from our spirit to the body.

Thanks for your response although I disagree with most of the first part and agree with the majority of the last sentence. The thing you left out of the last sentence though, is to what degree? Likley, the flow from the spirit is very very small and does not acount for the majority of what we would call our "thoughts" our "personality" our "talents" our "memories" etc.

God created the perfect world, Adam's fall caused it to become corrupt. "Nature" is corrupt, therefore making it an enemy to God. "Nature" as we know it is in opposition to God, for the most part, at least it provides the opportunity for choice but the default is a drift to the corrupted side. This is why pagan beliefs are false.

Memories are a function of neuronal function, ask any family member of one who has Alzheimer's. Again, I am surprised such a statement is coming from one who works in the medical field but I guess you work with bones not brain. What exactly is "memory" and "thought" is the big test of this life. It is our test to figure out where those "thoughts" are coming from, is it from the spirit or the body? As the natural man is an enemy to God, then by definition, already, >50% of our thoughts have to be coming from "nature" which is corrupt. I would say it is even greater than that but I have no way of proving that, other than the fact that to listen to spiritual influences takes a lot of effort and understanding of the spirit. Most of the time the influence of the spirit is described as a 'feeling' or an inclination, a quiet, still small voice and not a "memory" or "thought". If spiritual "memories" were our main program in this probationary life then I can't see how we would forget the pre-mortal life. In my view, for the average person in this world, maybe not for President Monson or any other GA, the spiritual "thought" or "memory" accounts for less than 1% of their total thought and being. ... unfortunately, but that is what creates the test we are in.

The amount of spiritual thought would probably be congruent to the amount of "light of Christ" a person has. For some, that even diminishes over time to obscurity but they still have thoughts, many thoughts and memories. How much of Hitler's spirit was controlling his thoughts while doing the evil things he was doing? A spirit that in the pre-mortal existence chose God's plan over Satans. And now in spirit prison, suffering because he realizes how he didn't pay attention to his spiritual "thoughts" in this life, his spiritual self to the point of totally ignoring it, only listening to carnal influences regarding power, pride, etc. This is how our 'true natures' are revealed.

How many thoughts and memories does one that has psychosis have or mania? They have many 'memories' and 'thoughts', in fact in mania they have too many thoughts. In your mind, those are all coming from the spirit? The brain is 'functional' in those people. If the functional brain in those people were not that influential than the spirit could overcome easily those intruding thoughts, but it doesn't. Not because the spirit is weak but because the majority of 'thought' in this life is not from the sprit, so the body is a stronger influence.

A body, a perfected body (not this one), eventually provides the fullness of joy we need to become like God. On one hand you say that God can control the laws of physics but then describe the body as just a conduit for the spirit. If God can control the laws of physics already, then how does a body, which is just material then that he already controls under the statement of "controling the laws of physics" anything more to cause a fullness? We know that as spirits we helped in the creation of this world, Jesus in fact created this world as a spirit thus manipulating material. Then what, in your mind, does the body add to this all empowered spiritual self to become fullness of joy, unless there is something actually added and not just a conduit for the spirit? A tool doesn't provide anything more than just a means to an end, anymore than money can buy happiness, if the body is just a tool then it doesn't give or add anything to joy to make it full, it is just the catalyst to joy, which to me is a lesser view of the body. I believe the body adds something that the spirit alone does not have intrinsic to it's nature and that way combined with the spirit can provide a fullness of joy.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have speculated that many unclean spirits may have acquired a “body”. We see from scriptures that from time to time more than one spirit has obtained influence over things physical. Now there is thought that the brain is somehow connected to the spirit which gives control over our body. This is interesting because there is some “possibility” that we are able to operate a body on physical influences beyond the spiritual responses. This is called the natural man.

The Traveler

It is always curious to me how, when people talk about the spirit-body connection there is always an implication that the spirit is "controlling" the body and not the other way around. If you were to take an estimate on the average person in this world, how much do you think the spirit is control of that relationship, the spirit-body connection? Is it 90%? 50% 25%?

When a person says to themselves "I crave Chinese food tonight", you think the majority of the time that is the spirit driving that thought? Or "that guy looks hot", that is the spirit? Or, "If I can sell 20 cars on the lot this month I can put a down payment on the house I want", that is really the spirit driving that thought and that control? Or "I hate ..... I will join the fight against them, sacrifice my life and kill many others for that cause" that is the spirit driving that thought? Or "I don't want to talk to those guys in white shirts, they are just trying to brain wash people" that is the spirit saying that in their heads? Or even "I feel tired, I better go to bed now so I can have a good day tomorrow" that is the spirit saying that? Really .... how much control do you thing the spirit has in this situation we find ourselves. My opinion is, not much. ...that is what makes us fallen. That is the thing that changed, as well as the world, is the body but not the spirit with Adams fall.

I guess what caught me in what you said was "....operate a body on physical influences beyond the spiritual responses." Why would you use the word "operate"? Why can't it be that it "operates" on it's own, that part is what is called "natural". Then it would not really be operated by something but just "living". "Living" though is not the same as "life" in a gospel sense. Those "natural" processes, in fact, have been given to Satan to have dominion over for a short period of time. "Nature" therefore is a destructive process, this is why "evolution" is a misnomer, it is a process of making things less whole and more and more divided, diverse and separate from the original creation.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is always curious to me how, when people talk about the spirit-body connection there is always an implication that the spirit is "controlling" the body and not the other way around. If you were to take an estimate on the average person in this world, how much do you think the spirit is control of that relationship, the spirit-body connection? Is it 90%? 50% 25%?

When a person says to themselves "I crave Chinese food tonight", you think the majority of the time that is the spirit driving that thought? Or "that guy looks hot", that is the spirit? Or, "If I can sell 20 cars on the lot this month I can put a down payment on the house I want", that is really the spirit driving that thought and that control? Or "I hate ..... I will join the fight against them, sacrifice my life and kill many others for that cause" that is the spirit driving that thought? Or "I don't want to talk to those guys in white shirts, they are just trying to brain wash people" that is the spirit saying that in their heads? Or even "I feel tired, I better go to bed now so I can have a good day tomorrow" that is the spirit saying that? Really .... how much control do you thing the spirit has in this situation we find ourselves. My opinion is, not much. ...that is what makes us fallen. That is the thing that changed, as well as the world, is the body but not the spirit with Adams fall.

I guess what caught me in what you said was "....operate a body on physical influences beyond the spiritual responses." Why would you use the word "operate"? Why can't it be that it "operates" on it's own, that part is what is called "natural". Then it would not really be operated by something but just "living". "Living" though is not the same as "life" in a gospel sense. Those "natural" processes, in fact, have been given to Satan to have dominion over for a short period of time. "Nature" therefore is a destructive process, this is why "evolution" is a misnomer, it is a process of making things less whole and more and more divided, diverse and separate from the original creation.

Excellent well thought out post: My initial reaction was to explorer the principle fasting and getting in touch spiritually. I would like to explorer this whole concept but I am going to take some time to meditate on it and get back to you.

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest tbaird22

As far as the spirit vs natural man for influence of the body, I believe it would be something like this: in the beginning, the spirit has very little control or influence (lets say maybe 1-10% to help you recognize truth, good and christ) but if you choose righteously the spirit grows in influence while on the other hand if you don't choose righteously it lessens. The question then becomes to what point does it increase/decrease? My beliefs are that the max the spirit can go is 40% leaving the body 60% because if it was exactly even decisions wouldnt be much of a test. At this point, the body will have cravings but you will also realize the spirit has needs. From there, its a choice of who to feed more. do you indulge in every craving you have? Or just the necessities? Its the same for the spirit.

For example, do you eat the amount and foods you should(basic physical need) or eat more and the foods you want(physical craving)? VS Do you go to church(basic spiritual need) or read your scriptures/pray daily, go to the temple often, etc.(realized needs for spirit)? I think that physical or the natural man cravings and needs will always be present while the spiritual ones are only there once we realize they're there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as the spirit vs natural man for influence of the body, I believe it would be something like this: in the beginning, the spirit has very little control or influence (lets say maybe 1-10% to help you recognize truth, good and christ) but if you choose righteously the spirit grows in influence while on the other hand if you don't choose righteously it lessens. The question then becomes to what point does it increase/decrease? My beliefs are that the max the spirit can go is 40% leaving the body 60% because if it was exactly even decisions wouldnt be much of a test. At this point, the body will have cravings but you will also realize the spirit has needs. From there, its a choice of who to feed more. do you indulge in every craving you have? Or just the necessities? Its the same for the spirit.

For example, do you eat the amount and foods you should(basic physical need) or eat more and the foods you want(physical craving)? VS Do you go to church(basic spiritual need) or read your scriptures/pray daily, go to the temple often, etc.(realized needs for spirit)? I think that physical or the natural man cravings and needs will always be present while the spiritual ones are only there once we realize they're there.

Thanks for your response,

I have heard, even on this forum, people believe that every thought generated is somehow initiated by the spirit of that person. I think that is far from the truth. The spirit is more like the back seat driver of the car that sometimes gives advice to the direction but rarely takes "control". The "control" of the body can go on auto-pilot so to speak which happens if a person doesn't pay attention to the direction of the spirit. Where does that "auto-pilot" come from though, the body itself, which is what the study of neuroanatomy and neuroscience helps us understand to a very small amount. For some reason, spontaneous, random, creative thought coming from the body and not the spirit is hard for LDS to swallow.

This is also likely what drives aspects of a person's character that most would call "personality". Things that are spiritual are recognized spiritually. In other words spirit is not revealed by a person's 'tone of voice' (like in the movies when a person jumps into another body, suddenly their voice changes a la 'Freaky Friday', and their mannerisms stay the same), or their 'likes and dislikes' their 'intelligence' (in this life), their skills and talents, etc. Most of that is not driven by the 'back seat driver', but the auto-pilot of the body. When the spirit takes control of those given talents and uses them for God's will then that is called righteousness, even more so when the person can be humble enough to realize that it is not even themselves, but mostly the body they were given. This is why a totally evil person can be a 'great' speaker. A person who ignores spiritual influences can 'learn' how to be a sharp shooter or an effective killer. How is it then that they are 'learning' and yet not in tune with their spirit at all (or at least very little) because that 'learning' can be at a physical, natural level alone. And the fruit of that learning can be purely natural fruits only, it doesn't all have to emanate from the spirit, is my point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Paul understood this concept pretty well.

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

“For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. …

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. …

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:14–15, 18, 21–24; see also JST, Rom. 7.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will add a couple of things at this time.

The physical body dies when separated from the spirit. I know there are those that believe in out of body experiences - I have had such experiences but I do not believe the spirit leaves the body. Death as we know it is when the spirit releases the body. There is more to this discussion but I will leave it for now to move on to what I believe to be more important.

The next concept I would add is that we are not alone with our spirit incased in our body. In quantum terms - I believe spirit matter to be bosonic not fermionic. I do not know a easy way to explain this except that I do not think spirit matter is bounded in space time as we usually think of matter.

I am not sure that as individuals we have any original thoughts. I believe our thoughts are assisted by “other” spiritual influences. I believe the scriptures tell us that the Holy Ghost is necessary to assist us in remembering holy things. I also do not believe we are capable of “evil” thoughts without assistance. I believe this because of the particular concept we call “agency”. In essence the only choice we are capable of making in mortality is a toggle switch between either good or evil. A switch that is loaded and defaulted to evil - we can only change it through discipline. But at the same time it is not that simple. Everything we do is a derivative of discipline or loss of control to outside (evil) forces - as we repeat something it becomes “ingrained” or burned in and that process begins to define us. So if we do nothing to control ourselves (discipline) we will lose control and end up in bondage (not in control) and not “free”. The only way to break the cycle of bondage is a spiritual process of discipline called repentance.

I believe there is more - but before I move on I want to think on this some more - and part of my thinking process is to consider others and their interpretation of their experiences.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will add a couple of things at this time.

The physical body dies when separated from the spirit. I know there are those that believe in out of body experiences - I have had such experiences but I do not believe the spirit leaves the body. Death as we know it is when the spirit releases the body. There is more to this discussion but I will leave it for now to move on to what I believe to be more important.

The next concept I would add is that we are not alone with our spirit incased in our body. In quantum terms - I believe spirit matter to be bosonic not fermionic. I do not know a easy way to explain this except that I do not think spirit matter is bounded in space time as we usually think of matter.

I am not sure that as individuals we have any original thoughts. I believe our thoughts are assisted by “other” spiritual influences. I believe the scriptures tell us that the Holy Ghost is necessary to assist us in remembering holy things. I also do not believe we are capable of “evil” thoughts without assistance. I believe this because of the particular concept we call “agency”. In essence the only choice we are capable of making in mortality is a toggle switch between either good or evil. A switch that is loaded and defaulted to evil - we can only change it through discipline. But at the same time it is not that simple. Everything we do is a derivative of discipline or loss of control to outside (evil) forces - as we repeat something it becomes “ingrained” or burned in and that process begins to define us. So if we do nothing to control ourselves (discipline) we will lose control and end up in bondage (not in control) and not “free”. The only way to break the cycle of bondage is a spiritual process of discipline called repentance.

I believe there is more - but before I move on I want to think on this some more - and part of my thinking process is to consider others and their interpretation of their experiences.

The Traveler

Thanks, I totally agree with this but would even be more specific in saying that the evil influence is the mortal body itself. The scriptures say in death we put off this corruption.

"Bondage" is when people give more heed to the carnal influences. The "repentance" in part, is to say that I won't act on those influences any more, making a choice to listen to spiritual influences and asking for power to do so.

The drive to eat on fast Sunday comes from my own body. I do not believe it comes from some other "spiritual" force, whether that is an evil force or not. I have enough spiritual strength to not give into that thought process generated by my brain, hormones, hard-wired habits etc. There is enough mapping of the brain to realize that most things we call "temptations" can be located to specific circuitry in the brain.

There are certain areas of temporal lobe damage, such as what might happen with stroke or tumor, that could cause a person to have a loss of sexual drive. And the opposite is true too, with certain areas of damage, like to the anterior temporal lobes a person might have hypersexuality. It would be hard for me to believe that because there was a stroke the person is somehow more or less attacked by some external spiritual force unless what was damaged is the source of the force or some final common pathway of the force. In either case, we can say that the opposition is presented to us via the brain, not to spirit. The spirit wasn't damaged with the stroke or tumor.

In temporal lobe stroke, certain areas, for the most part the reasoning part of the brain is intact, we are not talking about frontal lobe strokes and yet their drives change. Even if the spirit was 100% in control of reasoning than a temporal lobe stroke should not affect a person's sexual drive one way or the other much. The effect of the spirit then is not as much as most would suggest. ... This is exactly why we can't judge anyone, only God knows the 'hard-wiring' of everyone's brain and what they are up against in terms of carnal influences. Looking at the act alone doesn't take into consideration what the spirit is up against in terms of opposing forces.

Thanks again, for the discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, I totally agree with this but would even be more specific in saying that the evil influence is the mortal body itself. The scriptures say in death we put off this corruption.

"Bondage" is when people give more heed to the carnal influences. The "repentance" in part, is to say that I won't act on those influences any more, making a choice to listen to spiritual influences and asking for power to do so.

The drive to eat on fast Sunday comes from my own body. I do not believe it comes from some other "spiritual" force, whether that is an evil force or not. I have enough spiritual strength to not give into that thought process generated by my brain, hormones, hard-wired habits etc. There is enough mapping of the brain to realize that most things we call "temptations" can be located to specific circuitry in the brain.

There are certain areas of temporal lobe damage, such as what might happen with stroke or tumor, that could cause a person to have a loss of sexual drive. And the opposite is true too, with certain areas of damage, like to the anterior temporal lobes a person might have hypersexuality. It would be hard for me to believe that because there was a stroke the person is somehow more or less attacked by some external spiritual force unless what was damaged is the source of the force or some final common pathway of the force. In either case, we can say that the opposition is presented to us via the brain, not to spirit. The spirit wasn't damaged with the stroke or tumor.

In temporal lobe stroke, certain areas, for the most part the reasoning part of the brain is intact, we are not talking about frontal lobe strokes and yet their drives change. Even if the spirit was 100% in control of reasoning than a temporal lobe stroke should not affect a person's sexual drive one way or the other much. The effect of the spirit then is not as much as most would suggest. ... This is exactly why we can't judge anyone, only God knows the 'hard-wiring' of everyone's brain and what they are up against in terms of carnal influences. Looking at the act alone doesn't take into consideration what the spirit is up against in terms of opposing forces.

Thanks again, for the discussion.

I wanted to respond to your “thought” - not because I disagree but because I think we are tacking in different places but at the same angle in the wind.

When we first think to do something it is only a thought and turning that thought into action requires focus and discipline. The first time we turn a thought into action it is usually awkward and clumsy and not really accomplished. At this point it is very easy to modify our actions by focusing more or on particular aspects. The next time we “try” applying the thought into action - because of our focus and discipline our action is modified. Generally we think of this as a learning process.

As we repeat the action it become more accomplished - and we do not need the same focus as when be began. Much of our actions are almost automatic. We can now think of our actions as habit.

If our actions continue then our responses become completely conditioned. At this point our actions are more than just habit - I call this an addictive reaction. An action that once started we cannot stop - it controls us and not us it. I believe that addictive wiring will eventually define us and that at some point we no longer drive but driven. Because of our focus and discipline we can know in advance what we will do. We become the thoughts we focus on and discipline into action. I believe this is our agency.

BTW - thank you for the discussion.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanted to respond to your “thought” - not because I disagree but because I think we are tacking in different places but at the same angle in the wind.

When we first think to do something it is only a thought and turning that thought into action requires focus and discipline. The first time we turn a thought into action it is usually awkward and clumsy and not really accomplished. At this point it is very easy to modify our actions by focusing more or on particular aspects. The next time we “try” applying the thought into action - because of our focus and discipline our action is modified. Generally we think of this as a learning process.

As we repeat the action it become more accomplished - and we do not need the same focus as when be began. Much of our actions are almost automatic. We can now think of our actions as habit.

If our actions continue then our responses become completely conditioned. At this point our actions are more than just habit - I call this an addictive reaction. An action that once started we cannot stop - it controls us and not us it. I believe that addictive wiring will eventually define us and that at some point we no longer drive but driven. Because of our focus and discipline we can know in advance what we will do. We become the thoughts we focus on and discipline into action. I believe this is our agency.

BTW - thank you for the discussion.

The Traveler

Thanks, I agree. I think a lot of this is fairly understood, NMDA receptors, neuronal plasticity etc.

On the religious side of that discussion, we believe that some of those "hard-wired" habits become part of our spirits cravings and can even linger on in the afterlife. For example, the smoker, continuing to want to smoke, etc.

The issue that I think we started on with this discussion is where do those impulses originate, even before they become "hard-wired". I propose that most if not all are from the body itself and via environmental influences (peer pressure, upbringing, other influences, etc.) but always channeled through the body. The spirit can modify the significance of such influences but I doubt the spirit is the originator of such 'likes and dislikes", tendencies, carnal desires, and bodily drives of various kinds like some seem to suggest.

I think most LDS seem to over attribute earthly characteristics to their spiritual characteristics. (at least on this forum that seems to be expressed often) I realize that probably some come through but I would say the majority of what we call "personality" originates from the body not the spirit. The direction the person takes with that given "personality" of course is driven by the spirit but the given "personality" in the form of the bodies wiring and "nurturing" are not necessarily a reflection of the spiritual self. A person with the genetic predisposition for eating sweets and diabetes does not reveal that persons spiritual make-up. Whether they watch their diet and get control over their desires, that may reflect their spiritual make up but the original desire I don't think originates from the spirit. The spirit is the 'back-seat' driver in that sense.

Whether a person is artistic, has a mind for science, a great speaker, shy, athletic, musically talented, can read people well, etc. mostly comes from the set of genes (i.e - body, brain) they were given, plus a little their environment, not their spiritual "personality". What they do with those given attributes is spiritual driven though in this life, in fact that is part of the test. (story of the 10 talents)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of possibilities of what could have happened to Lazarus...

1) It's possible that God knew what was going to happen and placed Lazarus into a suspended animation phase for 4 days.

2) Perhaps Lazarus was translated like Moses or the 3 Nephites an then changed into a mortal again.

3) God can heal the sick. Who is to say that He can't heal every single cell in the body. I wouldn't put it past Him.

4) I doubt that God destroyed the tissue that composed Lazarus' body and then created a new body for his Spirit de novo. But If God wanted to do it He probaly could.

I just think that God uses the tools that He has and is not frivolous with His priesthood.

John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the

sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time

he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if

thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

I do not believe God would pull a slight-of-hand trick on these people to make them think he could restore the dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share