I Need Your Help


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This post is more of a shout for help than anything else.

I've been a member my entire life, I'm an RM, and I used to have the most sincere and committed testimony you could imagine. I accidently ran across what has been deemed "anti-Mormon" literature over several months ago. My first exposure got to my curiousity and I began to pursue the subject matter even more. It has rocked my testimony. I won't get into any details of what I read, this post is simply a broad disclosure of stating that I came across anti literature.

I'm really struggling now with trying to have faith in our church. Does any one on here have a similar experience of reading this stuff and still having faith in the divinity of the church? I could really use some encouragement and answers. I'm a man, and very much a logical person. I would appreciate something outside of "pray to feel the spirit" response.

I would have died for this church on my mission because my testimony was so rock solid. Now I really battle internally to trust in any of this. All answers are welcome. Thank you!

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TripleTruth,

Since my mission, I have considered antiMormon literature to be spiritual pornography and have avoided it like the plague it is. On the few occasions I have needed to research such literature, I have been able to point out the flaws and absurdities, either immediately or with a bit of research, but I still leave it feeling like I need to take a shower.

My friend, you appear to be less sensitive but even more susceptible to such filth than I am. My heartfelt advice to you: From this day forward, never read any aniMormon literature again.

Unfortunately, I have read quite a bit of antiMormon stuff, mostly before and during my mission but a fair amount afterward. It breaks down like this:

90% Pure, obvious bunk that I could dispute off the top of my head

6% Stuff I recognized as bunk, but it took some (small amount of) reading to debunk it

3% Stuff that kind of seemed to make sense, and bothered me, but through a fair amount of research I established that it was either false or misrepresentative

1% Stuff that I couldn't figure out how to counter, that wasn't obviously false, and that kind of bothered me

For that final 1%, I put it on the back burner and went on with my life. Now approaching 50, I have learned that much of that 1% of "difficult" stuff is irrelevant and not difficult at all, and most of the rest is a misunderstanding caused by an imperfect understanding of Church history and/or a limited vision of existence.

This life is a time to walk by faith. We have a veil obscuring our memory of life/lives past BECAUSE we are supposed to exercise and develop our faith in God. Pray at least twice a day, read your scriptures for a half hour or more per day (at least 15 minutes), go to all your Church meetings and fellowship with the Saints, and strive to do what's best. And never read the antiMormon garbage. If you do this, you will find yourself in a much better situation, emotionally and spiritually, in 30 days.

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First, keep away from anti sites and stick only to lds.org, mormon.org, and Jeff Lindsey, Meridian Magazine, approved lds sites. Anti sites don't have a disclaimer similar to this site:

LDS.Net is not owned by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (sometimes called the Mormon Church or LDS Church). The views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the position of the Church. The views expressed by individual users are the responsibility of those users and do not necessarily represent the position of the More Good Foundation. For the official Church websites, please visit LDS.org and Mormon.org.

Look for the disclaimer, if there isn't one- leave the site.

Second, pray and read the Book of Mormon, and the other scriptures.

Third, fast and pray for strength to hold onto the rod.

One of the reasons that Missionaries have such strong testimonies is that they immerse themselves with all things spiritual. Reading the scriptures, praying way, way more than the average LDS member, refraining from listening to radio, watching TV, surfing the internet. Listening to uplifting and spiritual music.

What ever you have read that has got you questioning your faith - search/research it out via lds.org. Go to the scriptures, Ensign, conference talks, etc. to get the "official" stance on it. When you were a missionary, didn't you have investigators read the BofM prayerfully, and then kneel in prayer to ask Father if what they have read is true? Doesn't that apply to what you read on anti sites? On any site regardless whether it is LDS, or any faith? Don't know if I am coming across with any sense or not. Example: Want to know what happens when the Dentist does a root canal - ask a dentist, not a chiropractor who just had a root canal.

Finally, perhaps talking with your Bishop would be in order - get his help in searching for answers, and adding one more person praying for your specifically is alway a help.

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Vort,

Thank you so much for such a heartfelt and quick response. You offer very sound advice and I will follow it. The thing that made anti literature so destructive for my testimony is when I read the anti literature and realized it was anti, I would cross-reference the claims with talks and records which are posted in the online archive available on the church's site. Perhaps I should invest the time to read through the talks and history more thoroughly in order to assure I understand this stuff in full context.

I'm seeking the members help because honestly I was happier when I had full faith in the church. I took a very hard hit by running across this stuff and I would really like to get back to who I was; but in order for that to happen more core and my mind has to believe that this stuff is 100% truth. Thanks again everyone for reading this and to those who respond!

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I waited to do anything about the 'bad' stuff about the Church until I graduated from college and had time to look at things.

I agree with Vort's breakdown - most of the info is just somebody's chip-on-a-shoulder growsing.

I researched the 3 top things that bugged me. The first two were just bad attitudes. The third, however, turned out to be true. Took me more than 10 years to get it resolved, and in getting there I had to learn a lot and redefine my world view. The Holy Spirit helped me through it and now my testimony is VERY nuanced. Like the philosopher Immanuel Kant says, not all truth is useful.

Reality is not simple. Truth is not easy. There is a price to be paid for those who really seek truth. The Church is true but often not quite like it seems; rarely simply what is taught.

HiJolly

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Have you ever seen the object lesson where the teacher adds ingredients to make cookies then throws in a little fertelizer and mixes it in, then offers some to the class? This is often used to demenstate how a little porn or bad music can spoil a whole movie of album or something. That is how Satan works. He sneaks in a bunch of good, then throws a little bad.

I think this workds with anti stuff, too. Like Vort said, a bunch of truth then a little bad. That's how he catches us.

Don't feel bad, it's made to shake us. That is the point. People with good testimonies falter. That is why we are told to stay away from it.

You have, sadly, been sucked in already and Satan is doing a happy dance!! He is so glad that he took a strong member and possibly took his faith and the faith of his future family away, thus preventing eternal life from many.

I would advise you to stay away, from now on.

I know you don't want to hear the read and pray thing, so I won't say it (but I am thinking it.) Sometimes living it can help. Live the gospel as if you know it's true. Have faith that you can regain what you had.

Remember Satan is working just as hard to keep you from coming back to truth as he can. We are pulling for you, ans so is you family and friends.

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There are rational answers to ever piece of Anti-material I have ever seen - and I have seen a lot of it.

My question is, do you have a testimony of the Gospel? Do you read your scriptures?, say your prayers? Hold FHE? Do you do your HT/VT? etc.

Much of anti material questions the history of the Church -- I never had a testimony of the history of the Church, and I fully realize that there was only 1 perfect person in the history of the world.

Also (thinking of much of the anti-material I have ever seen) We don't believe anyone is infallable except Christ - not teachers, Bishops, Apostles, or Prophets. no-one except Jesus.

Not wanting to feed any possible trolls -- do you have something in specific that is bothering you?

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There are rational answers to ever piece of Anti-material I have ever seen - and I have seen a lot of it.

My question is, do you have a testimony of the Gospel? Do you read your scriptures?, say your prayers? Hold FHE? Do you do your HT/VT? etc.

Much of anti material questions the history of the Church -- I never had a testimony of the history of the Church, and I fully realize that there was only 1 perfect person in the history of the world.

Also (thinking of much of the anti-material I have ever seen) We don't believe anyone is infallable except Christ - not teachers, Bishops, Apostles, or Prophets. no-one except Jesus.

Not wanting to feed any possible trolls -- do you have something in specific that is bothering you?

Thanks for the response. Are these forums open to asking very specific questions about anti-literature topics? I don't want to get this thread shut down by getting too specific and I certainly don't want to start trying other people's testimony by detailing specifics. However, if I can ask specifics it may help clear up some stuff for me right now.

Thank you all again!

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I waited to do anything about the 'bad' stuff about the Church until I graduated from college and had time to look at things.

I agree with Vort's breakdown - most of the info is just somebody's chip-on-a-shoulder growsing.

I researched the 3 top things that bugged me. The first two were just bad attitudes. The third, however, turned out to be true. Took me more than 10 years to get it resolved, and in getting there I had to learn a lot and redefine my world view. The Holy Spirit helped me through it and now my testimony is VERY nuanced. Like the philosopher Immanuel Kant says, not all truth is useful.

Reality is not simple. Truth is not easy. There is a price to be paid for those who really seek truth. The Church is true but often not quite like it seems; rarely simply what is taught.

HiJolly

Great response. I too enjoy reading philosophy and you offered some thoughts which connect with me on a direct level.

It's great to atleast see that even though none of you have anything invested in me outside of this forum, you are all willing to take the time to help me.

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Thanks for the response. Are these forums open to asking very specific questions about anti-literature topics? I don't want to get this thread shut down by getting too specific and I certainly don't want to start trying other people's testimony by detailing specifics. However, if I can ask specifics it may help clear up some stuff for me right now.

Thank you all again!

I'm sure the mods will weigh in on the propriety of such a discussion.

On the one hand, the chance to help a brother out with decontaminating his mind from the poisons placed there by anti-Mormon literature is a worthy one. On the other hand, those who visit this site don't do so with the expectation of seeing anti-Mormon propagando being disseminated and discussed.

Too bad there isn't some secure, non-accessible forum to use. Maybe you could just privately mail some of us with your concerns, to be addressed in a non-public manner?

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One of the most effective & common strategies in attacking our faith is in detailing some historical event that puts into question common beliefs. Since we are not taught in the Church about most of these, it can come as quite a shock.

But understanding history is not simple. And it is not typically 'devotional', which is what all our Church meetings are designed to be.

Just a thought.

HJ

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I'm sure the mods will weigh in on the propriety of such a discussion.

On the one hand, the chance to help a brother out with decontaminating his mind from the poisons placed there by anti-Mormon literature is a worthy one. On the other hand, those who visit this site don't do so with the expectation of seeing anti-Mormon propagando being disseminated and discussed.

Too bad there isn't some secure, non-accessible forum to use. Maybe you could just privately mail some of us with your concerns, to be addressed in a non-public manner?

I have flagged this for moderator discussion.

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I agree with what the others said... it is best to stay away from the anti-mormon sites. I had a period when I was very inactive and didn't have as strong a testimony. I know the Book of Mormon is true because of an experience I had as a teen... but I wasn't sure about the church. So I visited anti-mormon websites and compared what they said with what lds supporting sites said. It was not a good idea to go to those anti-mormon sites, although that experience did help strengthen my testimony. These two websites I found most beneficial for helping in debunking the anti-mormon claims: Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints) and Book of Mormon on Trial

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Thanks for the response. Are these forums open to asking very specific questions about anti-literature topics? I don't want to get this thread shut down by getting too specific and I certainly don't want to start trying other people's testimony by detailing specifics. However, if I can ask specifics it may help clear up some stuff for me right now.

Thank you all again!

I think you you pick 1 thing thats bothering you the most and discuss/learn about it in a rational manner (not just you specifcally, everyone on the thread I mean), it should be ok.

I am also happy to correspond via PM or email with people with honest questions (can you tell I've been burned by trolls a couple times?)

I've read pretty much every anti-argument and am still a TR holding active member.

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I've read a lot of Anti-stuff myself.

Some of the items make "fun" of, question our beliefs or call us "unchristian". If you are well grounded in the scriptures, this is never a problem because the Bible alone with proper study justifies every belief we have. Remember that the Church defines its own beliefs, NOT some straw man that is set up by the critic. A lot of people in the early days of the church thought that the Book of Mormon covered North and South America. This was even memorialized in various editions of the Book of Mormon. Now thought has changed, and people think that the events in the Bof M took place in a relatively small geographic area. Neither of these assumptions are or ever were church doctrine. Go the lds.org for official Church positions.

The other thing they use is allegations against the modern prophets, primarily Joseph Smith, to impugn integrity or allege acts that are clearly NOT prophet like.

I have personally researched every allegation I couldn't answer off the top of my head (which was the vast majority) and in EVERY case either the facts were wrong, or the allegation was simply a lie.

Edit: there was a series of incidents (20+ years ago?) where a clever forger sold some documents to the Church that had some very strange writings of the prophet Joseph Smith. There was at least one article in the Church News attempting to explain some of it away. I remember thinking at the time that I thought the reply and explanation was a waste of time because JS would clearly not have written those things. I thought at the time the documents were forgeries, and they were.

Edited by mrmarklin
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I believe there is a nugget of truth in many of the anti literature. What makes it anti is how much bias with which it is written.

An historical fact is an historical fact. A teaching by a general authority is a teaching by a general authority. Really, they contain little if any emotional connection. I too have stumbled upon anti stuff. In fact, it's one of the things that lead me to this forum. I have come to the conclusion that anti-Mormong literature stumbles upon something that, yes, is technically true, applies an emotional opinion to it, then throws a hissy fit over everything.

I've also come to the conclusion that the amount of hard core, salvation-important, totally officially doctrine of the church is quite small. So you find something some venerable church leader said. It surprises and bothers you.

There are two main approaches to take here:

1. Believe it to be ultra-important information that is crucial to your salvation and was presented to said church leader by the chorus of at thousand angels and wind up at a huge crisis of faith.

2. Accept it as merely something a venerable church leader said. You are perfectly welcome to ask questions: Why did he say it? Was it his opinion? Was it the result of his own pondering and studying and perhaps even prayer--but still not the result of a text-book thousand angel/Godhead revelation? Was it something that could possibly contain some or a lot of truth but just isn't that big of a deal?

I have noticed that people get upset when they find out stuff that a few decades ago was common knowledge--such as Joseph Smith looking at rocks in a hat. No one had a problem with it years ago, it appeared in a church magazine article or two as hardly as secret, but nowadays it can cause people to leave the Church.

Why the Church doesn't stress these things anymore, I don't know. But if it didn't bother my grandparents and their ancestors, why should it bother me? Also, I believe we are all responsible for our own learning and we can't blame the Church class or seminary or whatever for not doing all the work for us.

Stay away from anti sites. Everything has a bad slant that forces you to be offended. Look at church sites. Heck, look at original sources.

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A decision has been reached.

As many have noted Anti stuff can be toxic to even strong members. We have no desire for such stuff here, and we take the responsibility to keep this site clean seriously.

We also take the responsibility to help people would are struggling with questions seriously.

Our decision is to allow... with the following restrictions.

In addition to the standard rules (no links to anti site, no flaming or personal attacks etc.) we want this done one question at a time. Let the first question be asked, discussed, answered etc. Then the next, and then then next.

Also we want questions to be in your own words. We are here to answer your questions, which might be caused by anti materials but now its yours. We don't want any cutting and pasting from anti sources.

Finally please understand this is something that is going to be watched closely and it will be closed/deleted at any signs that it turns out to be a bad idea.

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I would encourage you to learn LDS history from neutral or church sources. One trap a lot of people fall into is putting church leaders on a pedestal, and then find out that they aren't perfect. Joseph Smith did upset a lot of church members over various issues, both religious and secular. Suddenly you find this out, and your image of him is shattered, and you have to suddenly rebuild a more accurate depiction of him. Same thing for Brigham Young and every other church leader, including your Bishop and Stake President.

The one thing about this church that I find amazing is that we don't hide our past. In fact, 99% of the issues brought up by the antis is because we have been such good record keepers. We want to know every detail of church history and we publish volumes of information freely. The Journal of Discourses which is probably the most widely quoted book by antis is published by us. The church isn't hiding anything. They certainly could do as the Scientologists do and sue everyone who ever slanders them (even when they mock our most sacred rites), but they just let the truth speak for itself.

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The one thing about this church that I find amazing is that we don't hide our past. In fact, 99% of the issues brought up by the antis is because we have been such good record keepers. We want to know every detail of church history and we publish volumes of information freely. The Journal of Discourses which is probably the most widely quoted book by antis is published by us. The church isn't hiding anything. They certainly could do as the Scientologists do and sue everyone who ever slanders them (even when they mock our most sacred rites), but they just let the truth speak for itself.

This is a great point. Many anti-Mormons like to hammer on the Church because our Church history in Sunday School and Seminary focus on faith-promoting aspects.

Well, duh.

The purpose of Sunday School and Seminary and the like is to build the faith that brings people to God. Why on earth would the Church focus efforts on teaching things that that are no longer applicable, that might be seen as controversial, and that could well tend to lead people away from the truths of the gospel?

Look, if you're really intent on studying some particular, potentially difficult or controversial topic (e.g. polygamy), there are literally volumes written on the topic, and enormous piles of original material -- much of it published by the Church and/or kept through the efforts of the Church, as bytebear mentioned. Go for it. Study away. Pray about things, if you need to. But if polygamy has been officially banned from the Church for over 120 years, don't expect much time to be devoted to teaching our Primary kids (or anyone else) about it during Church time. There is too much to teach that has to do with salvation of our souls to spend time teaching trivia and focusing on the imperfections, real or perceived, of our leaders past and present.

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