Can a 5 year old be charged with murder?

[seeking_peace]

A five year old child admited to drowning a toddler in the bathtub to stop him from crying.

There is now a debate as to whether the child should be charged with murder. Here is the article:

Police: Girl, 5, said she drowned boy over crying *| ajc.com

What kind of punishment to you think should be administered to a 5 year old?

[FunkyTown]

I am horrified that this happened.

This is tragic. I have no idea. A five year old? I don't know.

I'm glad I'm not the judge in this case. Punishment isn't the way to go. The parents weren't there. Some teenage babysitter probably shouldn't be held responsible.

No idea.

[Gwen]

This needs some very slow, cautious, responsible investigation. 5 yr olds are very easy to lead in a direction. It wouldn't take much for someone to get a 5 yr old to say they did something they didn't.

There are a million red flags. Was the teenager really qualified to be watching children of those ages. Why was the 5 yr old in charge enough to think it was her responsibility to stop the crying? Why would the 5 yr old think of that solution? She got the idea from somewhere, even if it was just "angry non serious mouthing off" by adults. How many people say they will do something they don't mean? If they had made such threats before they are responsible for planting such ideas in the 5 yr old's mind.

The responsibility lands with someone, drowning someone isn't an accident. I'm inclined to say the parents but there are to many factors for any news report to give an accurate view of the situation. If indeed it did come totally from the 5 yr old (there are the few that are just not right, kill animals and things) then that needs to be identified so the child can get help and no one else gets hurt.

It's a very difficult situation, I hope the state workers handling it are trained and professional enough to handle it right.

[Backroads]

It is a tricky situation... frankly,I put responsibility on the teenager, though not for murder but neglect.

But charge a 5-year-old? Kid is already going to be traumatized enough as it is.

[SQUARE]

TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE. IN THE EYES OF THE LAW THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT. BUT IN THE EYES OF GOD, THIS CHILD IS 100% INNOCENT. LETS ENSURE THAT OUR CHILDREN WATCH OUT FOR EACH OTHER, AND ARE PROPERLY BABY SITTING.

[lizzy16]

5 year olds know what drowning is. They know you don't stay under the water or you'll get hurt.

Obviously the child wasn't thinking "I wanna kill the baby.' however at 5 kids know more then adults assume.

5 years old is kindergarden.

A kindergarden aged kid knows not to hold a baby under water. At least all the 5 yr olds I've ever watched. Obviously they don't have the judgment to think things through all the way.

I often gave baths to families I babysit and would stick the 1.5 yr old in with the 5 yr old. I was obviously standing there the whole time but still....

I'm not saying that the 5 yr old is at fault. Nor should the teenager be in my opinion. I've left a 2 yr old in the bath with a 5 yr old before for short periods of time. I don't think any one is to blame.

It's just a sad situation.

I'm concerned about the psychological blame the child and teenager will both feel later on.

[Dravin]

It is a tricky situation... frankly,I put responsibility on the teenager, though not for murder but neglect.

But charge a 5-year-old? Kid is already going to be traumatized enough as it is.

Also, even if you decide to prosecute and you get a conviction, are you going to put a 5 year old in jail?

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm with Gwen. Social workers can--and do--get five year olds to say all manner of nonsense.

[MorningStar]

This is the saddest thing I have read in a long time. No, the 5-year-old should not be charged with murder, but it seems the babysitter wasn't being very attentive (or maybe at all). The article doesn't say the kids were taking a bath together. It says the child was crying and the 5-year-old took the child to the bathroom to drown him. Where was the babysitter while this girl was dragging the boy there and how long was he crying for before she decided she should stop his crying?

It makes me wonder if someone dealt with her crying by putting her face underwater. It's hard to imagine a small child coming up with that idea on her own.

[lizzy16]

This is the saddest thing I have read in a long time. No, the 5-year-old should not be charged with murder, but it seems the babysitter wasn't being very attentive (or maybe at all). The article doesn't say the kids were taking a bath together. It says the child was crying and the 5-year-old took the child to the bathroom to drown him. Where was the babysitter while this girl was dragging the boy there and how long was he crying for before she decided she should stop his crying?

It makes me wonder if someone dealt with her crying by putting her face underwater. It's hard to imagine a small child coming up with that idea on her own.

We don't know those awnsers.

The babysitter could have been down stairs putting the other kids to bed. And, the baby could have been crying softly. We don't know.

I've heard one of the kids I watch cry and went ahead and put the kids to bed. I'm not an awful babysitter, I love kids but I also think its important for kids to learn to self soothe and you can't always rock a baby to sleep for 2 hours everynight. Sometimes its best to leave the baby in bed for 10 mins crying until she/he falls asleep.Anyway, the point is the babysitter doesn't have to be at fault here.

[KrazyKay]

We don't know those awnsers.

The babysitter could have been down stairs putting the other kids to bed. And, the baby could have been crying softly. We don't know.

I've heard one of the kids I watch cry and went ahead and put the kids to bed. I'm not an awful babysitter, I love kids but I also think its important for kids to learn to self soothe and you can't always rock a baby to sleep for 2 hours everynight. Sometimes its best to leave the baby in bed for 10 mins crying until she/he falls asleep.Anyway, the point is the babysitter doesn't have to be at fault here.

I'm with Lizzy here... we don't know all the details.

I remember one time I babysat for a family with 5 boys all under 10 years (the oldest was 10 and the youngest was 12 months) over night when I was 16. When I was putting them to bed, the 12 month old was crying softly as I read a book to the 3 year old and 5 year old. The older two had put themselves to bed (the older two (8 year old and 10 year old) had one room, the younger two had one room while the baby was in the parent's room). The 5 year old kept complaining about the baby crying even though it wasn't a "I'm hungry" or "I need changing" crying, but more of a "I'm tired but I don't want to go to sleep" soft crying. If the 3 year old and 5 year old had separate rooms, most likely I would have been with the 3 year old until he went to sleep, leaving the 5 year old alone in his room simply because the 3 year old is more likely to get up and play with his toys than the 5 year old at bedtime - not saying the 5 year old wouldn't... just that the 3 year old is more likely to, .

It is possible as Lizzy said, the babysitter was putting the other kids to bed when the 5 year old decided to put the baby under water. The news article also didn't mention anything about if the 5 year old had been abused by the parents or previous babysitters. That is also a possibility and where the 5 year old got the idea?

[rubondfan2]

On the surface, without a lot of reliable details (never rely on the media to give all the relevant facts and to do so in a way that is unbiased and non-inflammatory), this is a case of super-sized tragedy. Criminal?? No way. Our doctrine gives us very clear insight into the accountability of a 5 year old; namely, there is none. Is a 5-year old capable of taking a life against ones will? Well, sure. Is a 5-year old legally or even morally responsible? Good heavens, no.

The caregiver in charge ultimately carries "responsibility"... but even their responsibility is severely mitigated by whatever the full circumstances of the situation were. Parents responsible? Perhaps... a careless phrase uttered in anger or frustration between parents... a TV show or movie depicting violence... video games depicting violence... a picture in a magazine on the table... who knows what planted the idea or thought in the mind of the 5-year old that this would be a potential solution to the perceived problem. That answer could only come from competent counseling, if even at all.

Charging the 5-year old with murder? Even the mere thought is preposterous and really shouldn't be up for debate in my view. Unless facts are raised to the contrary, this is in no way a criminal matter.

Edited June 13, 2011 by rubondfan2
Type-O

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Sometimes in all the frenzy to find fault with someone, nobody considers the possibility of just ruling something a tragic accident and assigning blame to no one. Do we HAVE to blame someone?

[Vort]

Sometimes in all the frenzy to find fault with someone, nobody considers the possibility of just ruling something a tragic accident and assigning blame to no one. Do we HAVE to blame someone?

The problem is, of course, that there was nothing "accidental" about it. It was an intentional, premeditated act that resulted in the death of an innocent infant. I hesitate to call the act "murder" because I suspect it does not fulfill the requirements, either legally or morally, to be so classified. But it is something far more horrific than a mere accident.

[MorningStar]

I do know there are unfortunate things that can happen in a split second, but this child had enough time to drag the crying toddler (18-month olds aren't typically very light) to the bathroom, fill up the bath tub, and drown him. If the babysitter were helping older children at the moment, I just can't imagine that there wasn't a lot of noise that would cause her to go check on the younger children.

[Joette]

Terrible terrible tragedy and who is to blame? Ultimately the parents sorry but if you leave an untrained teen in charge of several children(?)That's asking for trouble.

A five year old has little idea of consequences & I can think of it being a logical thought of a five year old brain.Under the water you can't make noise so if the baby is underwater I won't have to hear him cry.

Tom & Jerry? The Road Runner? They whack & injure & even kill each other & are back the next day so it might not even have been a voiced/viewed suggestion to harm or quieten the baby.Five year olds are smarter than you think.They can be sophisticated in their logic & thinking-what they are not is able to know the consequences of their actions.

I would be suggesting family therapy & therapy for the child & supervision to see what happens within the family.How do you recover from this?

[Blackmarch]

Sometimes in all the frenzy to find fault with someone, nobody considers the possibility of just ruling something a tragic accident and assigning blame to no one. Do we HAVE to blame someone?

Thank you. no we dont... unfortunately revenge blame and hate, is getting ingrained into US culture more and more. Which I think also emphasizes how desperately as people how much we need to truly have christ in our hearts and be more forgiving and humble.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Blackmarch

[ruthiechan]

This child does NOT NEED TO BE PUNISHED. This child needs COUNSELING, and will need it for YEARS. So will the family. So will the babysitter.

Most people are NOT trained to ask children investigative questions. If adults can be convinced of being in an air balloon without ever having been in one how much more can children be convinced of doing something they may not have done or experienced?

I hope the investigation goes well and they do the right thing for the child and family.

[rubondfan2]

Tom & Jerry? The Road Runner? They whack & injure & even kill each other & are back the next day so it might not even have been a voiced/viewed suggestion to harm or quieten the baby.

Such a great observation. We "mature grown ups" laugh at these silly cartoons we grew up watching and of course it's all ridiculous and implausible what happens to the characters. But what does a small child make of it? A very keen observation indeed.

This just goes more to the heart of what I am hearing is the general feeling of the group here on this thread; namely, that the child was involved in a very tragic event, which may or may not have been prevented, and for which great care should be taken to protect him throughout this process and certainly NOT an event for which is he legally responsible and to be handled as some kind of criminal.

[prophetofdoom]

I am noticing a very disturbing trend in our society to try and incarcerate kids at earlier and earlier ages. It is not right and it only trains kids to become criminals when they enter the juvenile system. This sounds like a tragic accident. The adult caregiver would be the one to be held responsible.. maybe negligent homicide at best. The media has a way of trying to influence our thinking to be biased in a certain way even though we don't have all the facts.

This poor 5 year old will need to go through some counseling and some intense moral education though.

As some other posters have said, our doctrine is 100% absolutely clear.... under 8 years old... no accountability before God.

[Joette]

Agree with the most recent postings.

It horrified me when here in the UK Jamie Bulger a two year old abducted & murdered by two 10years olds the venom & hatred shown to them-more than would be vented against an adult .Murder of James Bulger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were two very disturbed emotionally & sexually abused & neglected children.I'm sure they knew what they did was wrong & that they were committing a sin but knowing children as I do they would not have been aware of the finality & consequences of their horrific actions. It seems that one has been released successfully back into society after years in a Youth Custody facility & then an adult prison.He will be on permanent license so liable to be re-imprisoned if he breaches his license-this could be as something as trivial as a Parking ticket.

The other has been taken back into custody as he was allegedly accessing child-porn on his computer.It is unlikely that he will released again.

Whilst this was a deliberate act by Venables & Thompson I am appalled at the lack of compassion for the actions of children whither intentional or deliberate.

[prophetofdoom]

I believe that children ages 8- 18 have varying degrees of accountability. I wouldn't consider myself a full reasoning adult until my twenties. That being said, you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Gretchen]

I find it interesting that killers are getting younger; the youngest serial killer I've been able to find on the internet was only eight. Here is where I found it, though I'm not sure they spelled the kid's name right.

Just a side note, Criminal Minds had one episode where a young boy (probably eight or so) killed a bunch of kids, and when he was asked why he did it, said "because I wanted to." Scary!