Honesty - extreme couponing

[Justice]

My feeling is that if the manufacturer does not want their coupon to be used for "extreme" measures, then they will put a disclaimer on it like many do.

If you have a coupon and it does not give an item limit then they intended not to limit it. Maybe they are trying to move more product and don't necessarily care about the price of a certain number of this product. It could be they are going to discontinue the item, re-package it, or change it's contents and they want the items off the shelf. Maybe they based the savings on how many coupons they printed, and not on how many are used at once. If you don't use it someone else will.

You never know. As long as you follow the rules on the coupon I wouldn't feel guilty about anything.

[mordorbund]

You never know. As long as you follow the rules on the coupon I wouldn't feel guilty about anything.

Do you feel guilty about anything?

[Seminarysnoozer]

My feeling is that if the manufacturer does not want their coupon to be used for "extreme" measures, then they will put a disclaimer on it like many do.

If you have a coupon and it does not give an item limit then they intended not to limit it. Maybe they are trying to move more product and don't necessarily care about the price of a certain number of this product. It could be they are going to discontinue the item, re-package it, or change it's contents and they want the items off the shelf. Maybe they based the savings on how many coupons they printed, and not on how many are used at once. If you don't use it someone else will.

You never know. As long as you follow the rules on the coupon I wouldn't feel guilty about anything.

Ignorance is bliss?

So long as I don't have to face the person or people that are actually paying for the groceries and I can paint this image in my mind that there is this monster Goliath out there called "big business", then I don't mind sticking it to him every once in a while? I think that is the way most justify this (not saying you do - my friends at least give that speech to me). But in reality, everyone who pays normal price for groceries are the ones who are paying for that persons 'outside the intended purpose' use of coupons.

"Honesty" is not supposed to be based in "well, nobody gets hurt by it" justification. Even if I know the hotel I stay at writes off their losses or has insurance, I still won't take the towel or the unopened box of tissue at the end of the stay. I think honesty is an internal thing that is even higher than simply obeying the laws of the land or 'everybody does it'.

[Backroads]

That is what this whole thread is about, "extreme couponing" is a program on cable TV that highlights people who turn this into a common practice of getting their groceries for essentially free. There were many, more than 5, that I saw and more and more are trying to do this. I was never talking about the person who uses coupons as they were intended, single use to see if one would like to buy or use the product. Of course, that is not dishonest.

Moderation in all things.

I see nothing wrong using coupons.

I see nothing wrong with using coupons wisely to get some truly amazing deals.

In essence, I don't think I have much of a problem with those that are getting free groceries out of this. I do have a problem with those that make couponing #1 in their lives.

[Dravin]

But in reality, everyone who pays normal price for groceries are the ones who are paying for that persons 'outside the intended purpose' use of coupons.

You've basically based your argument on something you've pulled out your backside (the intended use of coupons). Which is fine but recognize it as such. That if it was outside of the intended use we'd hear something either via announcement or on the coupons because when they only want you to use one past coupons have had no problem putting such limitations on them, some coupons are actually limited as "one per household", is entirely reasonable and equally valid if no more so.

Comparing it to taking robes, or bank errors is asinine and your analogies rests on you begging the question.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Dravin

[beefche]

Seminarysnoozer, do you use coupons at all? Do you only use use coupons for a product one time in your life? You said the intended use (which I'm curious how you know the intent) is to try a product. So, if you use a coupon to try something, decide you like it, you will then never use a coupon for that product again?

Also, do you not buy anything on sale? Do you wait for the sale to be over to buy something at full price?

I'm just truly confused by your reasoning on not using coupons.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer, do you use coupons at all? Do you only use use coupons for a product one time in your life? You said the intended use (which I'm curious how you know the intent) is to try a product. So, if you use a coupon to try something, decide you like it, you will then never use a coupon for that product again?

Also, do you not buy anything on sale? Do you wait for the sale to be over to buy something at full price?

I'm just truly confused by your reasoning on not using coupons.

Sorry, this is confusing unless you know what "extreme couponing" is. There was a cable show, I think with the same name, I have watched a few times. These are people who go dumpster diving or other methods and get 150 of the same coupon, add that to double coupons an watch for sales and then combine that all together to get most of their groceries, stock piled, for a tiny fraction of the normal cost, like paying 2 dollars for $1500.00 worth of groceries at a time.

... and yes I watch for sales and use coupons from time to time. I also occasionally will take a sample from the sample tray at the bakery but I don't dump the whole tray in my purse.

[NeuroTypical]

3 pages of this thread, and my answer still really hasn't changed.

If a business makes it possible to legally obtain it's product for free, then there is no ethical or moral block in a customer doing so. (There may be a common sense block, or a "if you were smarter you wouldn't do this" block - but that's separate from ethics and morals.)

If a business doesn't want to make it possible to legally obtain it's product for free, then it is free to put whatever policies into place it wishes, in order to keep this from happening.

If a business doesn't care one way or the other, then there is no ethical or moral imperitave that a customer do so.

The burden of selling something for a certain price rests on the selling entity. The burden does not fall on the buying entity to make sure that the selling entity gets 'enough'.

The definition of a fair deal, is when there's a price a seller will accept, and a buyer will pay.

Not sure how else to say it.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[mimi]

I do disagree with extreme couponing. or at least the kind they do on the tv show. i know people who use a lot of coupons and maybe they stock up on items but it's all within reason. the people on the show...no. they buy so much product ....it will either go bad or they will die before they use it all. some of the non-perishables will probably have to be given away to their children as part of their inheritance. that's the main problem i have. i wouldn't call it so much dishonest as greedy. these people are taking products that other people need.

there was also a comment about stuff being "free" if you use coupons right. it might be free to you but it isn't free to the company. they have to reimburse the store for the amount of the coupons. or if the store takes coupons that are no good or were used on the wrong item then the company won't reimburse them and the store has to absorb that cost. so somebody is paying for it regardless. you're just pushing your cost off to someone else. so i guess you could say that that part of extreme couponing is dishonest. especially when done on a regular basis and with no real need other than the want of bragging rights.

[Justice]

Do you feel guilty about anything?

You have no idea. Unfortunately, guilt is something I am quite acquainted with.

As far as coupons, if I use them according to the instructions, no, I don't feel guilt.

I don't personally use coupons very often. My wife uses them. One time she bought 10 packages of toilet paper for food storage and recived a good discount on all ten with one coupon. Other times I see where coupons say one item per coupon, other times when they say one item per coupon and one coupon per visit.

I don't feel guilt when I follow instructions.

Now, I would feel guilt if I knowingly attempted to use them NOT according to instructions.

[Justice]

Ignorance is bliss?

That's not my stance at all.

It's very different than taking towels that don't belong to you from a hotel.

If someone uses coupons according to instructions then they aren't stealing anything.

The cashier or manager totals up the bill according to manufacturer instructions. The consumer then pays the bill they are asked to pay. They stole nothing. They paid no more or no less than what the manufacturer required them to pay.

I really don't see the issue.

[ADoyle90815]

In my opinion, that's hoarding when people have such large stockpiles that their children have toilet paper under their beds, or a shower is used as storage instead of what it really was designed for. Also, it's selfish to clear the shelves of something so nobody else could get in on a deal.

I understand being prepared for disaster either natural or man-made, including unemployment, but one doesn't need to have a major stockpile like these hoarders, I mean "extreme couponers" have. If one's house is destroyed by fire or other disaster, or things get wet because of flooding, that hoard is gone for good.

On occasions where I use coupons while shopping, I use them only on things I actually use, and follow the rules when it comes to limits and leave plenty of items on the shelf for others. Basically, if I see something that says 2 for the price of 1, I only get 2 of that particular item. I like getting a great bargain just as much as anyone else, but it's possible to save money while following rules and allowing others to be able to take advantage of the same deal.

[beefche]

Sorry, this is confusing unless you know what "extreme couponing" is. There was a cable show, I think with the same name, I have watched a few times. These are people who go dumpster diving or other methods and get 150 of the same coupon, add that to double coupons an watch for sales and then combine that all together to get most of their groceries, stock piled, for a tiny fraction of the normal cost, like paying 2 dollars for $1500.00 worth of groceries at a time.

... and yes I watch for sales and use coupons from time to time. I also occasionally will take a sample from the sample tray at the bakery but I don't dump the whole tray in my purse.

I know what extreme couponing is.

So, your issue is with the number of items people are purchasing with coupons?

Do you think that the manufacturers and stores are completely unaware how a fraction of the population are using their sales and coupons?

If the sample tray had a sign posted that said, "take as many as you like" that someone who did dump the whole tray in their purse is being dishonest?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I know what extreme couponing is.

So, your issue is with the number of items people are purchasing with coupons?

Do you think that the manufacturers and stores are completely unaware how a fraction of the population are using their sales and coupons?

If the sample tray had a sign posted that said, "take as many as you like" that someone who did dump the whole tray in their purse is being dishonest?

My issue isn't with the number of items a person is buying. I don't have an issue with anyone who is doing the extreme couponing, my question is related to the honesty of such an act.

Lets say a box of Rice a Roni normally costs $1.80 off the shelf. The store sale has it down to $1.00 a box. The couponer has 75 cents off a box, coupons, after dumpster diving and taking 100 ads that were only intended for one newspaper ad per person, gathers 100 of these coupons. This gets the price down to 25 cents a box. Lets say, (I don't know how much it is exactly), that it costs 30 cents a box to produce the product, including the food itself, paying the workers, the packaging and shipping etc. So, there is a loss of 5 cents per box. Who pays the loss?

Of course the manufacturers are aware of that practice, they don't intend for all of their customers to do that, like you say it is a fraction. So, they may figure, well, maybe 2% of people will do that. Then they factor in that loss to what they charge for the product. The price of the product goes up by a certain amount. So, again, who pays for that? All the people who pay the normal price for the product. So the couponer is getting free food, or next to free food because others are willing to pay the added cost. Yes it is a small fraction of the bigger picture but still the same, it is not really "free", somebody has to pay for it. That is being honest in all our dealings, if I dish off 5 cents per box to someone else, times 100, if I only intend to buy products that I can get that kind of deal on?

Honesty is not based in whether the manufacturer factors into their suggested retail price the loss from extreme couponers. You are able to really say, the manufacturers already accounted for this loss, so it's okay to purchase this product for less than what it takes to make it? I don't know, that doesn't seem right to me.

[LDSJewess]

The other day I was watching a show on ‘extreme couponing’ and I was thinking about trying to do this myself. I was held back, though, with the idea that the reason manufacturers put out these coupons is to advertise their product with the hope of selling more. Knowing that is the intention of the coupons, if I go out, like these ‘extreme couponers’ and get $3,000 worth of groceries and products for $45 just because I can, is that really honest?

13th article of faith; “We believe in being honest ….” If I take 150 boxes of pasta and store it in the basement for “free” using coupons, I have taken away that company’s ability to make a profit on those boxes. As small as that may seem in the big picture for that company, that is still taking away that amount of profit. The production of that box of pasta is paid for, somewhere, in terms of the employees wage, shipping, cost of materials or raw food etc., it isn’t really “free”. Taking one or two with a coupon to see if it is something that you might like to purchase on a regular basis, which I think is the intention of the company that puts out the coupon, I think is honest. But is taking 150 of them, just because I can, honest? My feeling is not.

To me that is kind of like if there is a sample tray of sample food out in the bakery and I eat everything on the tray, not just one. That wouldn’t seem right to me (even though the thought has crossed my mind).

To take 150 cans of barbeque sauce off the shelf just because you can does not seem like an honest way of ‘getting gain’ anymore than hitting the lottery would. Just because it is legally available or possible doesn’t always translate to honesty. Agree or disagree?

I do know of some who do this extreme couponing. Personally I don't think I would have the discipline or be willing to take the time to do this.

I do not feel any transaction is dishonest providing both parties are in agreement of the transaction, For instance if the manufacturer of the product, the grocery store and the purchaser agrees to the terms of the coupon it is a legal and likely a win win situation for all parties involved.

The purchaser receives the goods and through their word of mouth )(and the TV shows that depict this practice), the stores and the manufacturer are getting free National advertizing. Also the grocery store is rebated by the manufacturers of the products being sold, and the grocery store continues to carry more of the product to lure buyers into the store. The manufacturer sees the coupons as good business advertizing and a fantastic write off on their taxes, and the customer gets great deals. So I see it as a win win situation.

BUT, this being said, there is a part of this practice that I see as potentially wrong. That is when the purchaser stocks up on more food than they are likely to ever be able to use. I am whole heartedly for food storage, but I also find that it is unlikely anyone needs hundreds of bottles of bar b que sauce etc: If the buyer is couponing for entertainment and they wind up hoarding and the food winds yup going to waste, then this is a big problem indeed.

One person that I know that does this however, is a Jewish lady who every year on Yom Kippur answers the "appeal to charity" where people donate to their local food banks. She buys all this stull (hundreds of dollars) and pays next to nothing and then donates it to the food bank.

If the food is being put to good use, it's all good for all concerned. But if it is hoarding and gluttony for the sake of entertainment then it is not good.

One more question though regarding this:

Let's say someone buys $1,000.00 worth of food for $100.00 because of couponing. Are they not in a sense getting a $900.00 increase on the coupon savings? And if so, would it not be prudent to tithe $90.00 (ten percent of the increase) on the savings?

[beefche]

The thing is, SS, whether it is one person getting 100 coupons and using them or 100 people getting one coupon and using it, the cost is the same to the company. The company dictates the requirements and limitations of the coupon.

Now, if the company doesn't want someone to use 100 coupons at one time, then the restrictions of the coupon will be such.

I also don't understand your reasoning behind obtaining coupons. Are you saying that I shouldn't ask my friends or neighbors for their coupons they don't want/use? That I am being dishonest by asking/accepting those coupons that they were planning on throwing away?

Frankly, I do not understand how you know the company's intent of the coupons unless you happen to be a CEO of one of these companies. Perhaps, I'm wrong and you have asked these companies their intent (if so, I would love to read their response on the matter).

I find it hard to believe that the companies are losing so much money from their coupons that they 1) continue to offer coupons and 2) don't place restrictions on them to prevent the extreme couponing that you object to.

[NeuroTypical]

In my opinion, that's hoarding when people have such large stockpiles that their children have toilet paper under their beds, or a shower is used as storage instead of what it really was designed for.

...

I understand being prepared for disaster either natural or man-made, including unemployment, but one doesn't need to have a major stockpile like these hoarders, I mean "extreme couponers" have. If one's house is destroyed by fire or other disaster, or things get wet because of flooding, that hoard is gone for good.

Could I ask you for definitions of the words "hoarder" and "hoarding"? You seem to be associating some negative connotation with it.

Is a years' supply of food "hoarding"? How about a years' supply of toilet paper? Or are people hoarders if they follow the prophet's counsel on preparadness but live in a small enough place that storing stuff presents problems?

If you skip over to the preparadness forum, you'll see a thread or two on people struggling to get their years' supply together, but live in an apartment or something, and are asking for advice. Some of the advice given involves storing things under beds or in extra bathrooms. If they follow that advice, does that make them hoarders? And if it does, does that mean they're bad people?

[LDSJewess]

Could I ask you for definitions of the words "hoarder" and "hoarding"? You seem to be associating some negative connotation with it.

Is a years' supply of food "hoarding"? How about a years' supply of toilet paper? Or are people hoarders if they follow the prophet's counsel on preparadness but live in a small enough place that storing stuff presents problems?

If you skip over to the preparadness forum, you'll see a thread or two on people struggling to get their years' supply together, but live in an apartment or something, and are asking for advice. Some of the advice given involves storing things under beds or in extra bathrooms. If they follow that advice, does that make them hoarders? And if it does, does that mean they're bad people?

I think the answer to that is common sense. We had a discussion on desaster preparedness in RS today. It was a timely discussion since we are in hurrican country here, and tis the season, so preparedness is on our minds.

There are many different secsible ways to prepare for distaster.. In my neck of the woods the top priorities should be first aide kits, batteries, plyboard or hurricane shutters, extra cash where one can have access even when the power is out, (ATM's don't work during power outages), a full tank of gas in the car, updated insurabce and other important papers, updated pet immunization records in the event you have to evacuate with pets and of course pet supplies etc: Bottled water, and water for washing that can be your swimming pool if usable, and filling the bath tubs and sinks. A years supply of food is the last thing on the list. Ideally a few weeks extra food that can be prepared without power. In the event of an imminent hurricane, many people would be asked to evacuate and bring a year's worth of food in your car or on a plane is not an option. If our homes wind up flooded out or blown out they will not be livaable and our excessive food storage will likely be part of the insurance claim.

I am not entirely sure under what circumstances or what type of disaster anyone would need a year's supply of food. In the case of nuclear disaster, better to prepare ourselves for meeting Heavenly Father than worrying about preparing dinner. In the case of famine or a situation where food was unavailable for a year, then the preparedness may have to include firearms if we intended to keep our stores because crime would be rampant with desparate people needing our stored goods.

Disaster preparedness is important, and food storage is a part of the preparedness, but so is common sense so that we can prepare for the disasters that are more likely to need our attention.

I would say a few hundred bottles of bar be q sauce would border on hoarding. No that anyone is a bad person for doing so, but not a common sense choice either.

[NeuroTypical]

Just to make sure we're all on the same page here: Our church does more than counsel us to engage in disaster preparadness. They counsel provident living and self-sufficiency. Here's the counsel

Start with a 3 month supply: "Build a small supply of food that is part of your normal, daily diet. One way to do this is to purchase a few extra items each week to build a one-week supply of food. Then you can gradually increase your supply until it is sufficient for three months. These items should be rotated regularly to avoid spoilage."

After that, focus on a longer term supply: "For longer-term needs, and where permitted, gradually build a supply of food that will last a long time and that you can use to stay alive, such as wheat, white rice, and beans." So, if it's a hundred bottles of BBQ sauce, it borders on hoarding. Does a hundred cans of rice and beans also border on hoarding?

I still need a definition of the term "hoarder" here... People are using the term pretty freely, and are assigning a negative connotation to the term - but I still don't know what the term means.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't feel guilt when I follow instructions.

Now, I would feel guilt if I knowingly attempted to use them NOT according to instructions.

Instructions? or intended purpose?

That is what I am hearing from most that justify its use, they say, "I am just following the instructions and if the business didn't want me to do that, there would be specific instructions not to."

In that respect, I have never seen it posted to never take the towel from the hotel room at the end of the stay. I don't think I have ever seen those instructions.

What is the purpose of coupons from the manufacturers standpoint? To advertise the product or introduce the product to potential customers. People are really ignorant to the purpose of coupons? They are not put out as charity from the manufacturers, even though extreme couponers I guess see it that way.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would say a few hundred bottles of bar be q sauce would border on hoarding. No that anyone is a bad person for doing so, but not a common sense choice either.

And a lot of the extreme couponers will find the 'bar b que' sauce type deals to get a negative balance so they can apply it to another purchase. In other words if they get a 5 cent negative cost, they buy a hundred so they can apply the $5.00 towards something else.

The whole mindset of this thing, at least from how it comes across on the TV show is that they are excited about getting something for nothing. One woman even did her "happy dance" after her "extreme" purchase of 1 penny for over $100.00 of groceries. I am having a hard time, from an LDS standard, to say that that would be "being honest in all your dealings", "an honest day's pay for an honest day's work" etc..

[Dravin]

I would say a few hundred bottles of bar be q sauce would border on hoarding.

Depends if they'd use it. If it'll just rot on the shelves (which isn't necessarily the sell by date) before they can get around to it then at the very least that's some poor planning. If they'll actually get their way through it then it's not poor planning. The key is we don't really know how fast they go through BBQ sauce and how much they may share. Though as mentioned earlier, it wouldn't shock me to know some qualify as hoarders.

[Echo2002]

It's only dishonest if you try to break the coupon rules of each store. A lot of stores are changing the rules and making it harder to use multiple coupons. Some stores are putting a limit on the number of coupons you can use per visit or they won't let you use a store coupon and a manufacturer's coupon on the same item. It is unfortunate for those of us who don't do extreme couponing.

If the person is throwing away food because they don't use it by the expiration date, that's a lot of waste, which is not good. A lot of those people on that show seem to donate what they get to local food banks which is good of them.

The church has always encouraged us to have a year's supply of food and other necessities. I used to wonder why we would need that much, but after the economy that we have been going through I can see the usefulness of a year's supply. There have been so many people losing their jobs and not being able to find work for 6 months or more. If you have a year's supply of food then you are at least able to spend what little money you may have on other necessities like shelter, utilities, and transportation.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's only dishonest if you try to break the coupon rules of each store. A lot of stores are changing the rules and making it harder to use multiple coupons. Some stores are putting a limit on the number of coupons you can use per visit or they won't let you use a store coupon and a manufacturer's coupon on the same item. It is unfortunate for those of us who don't do extreme couponing.

If the person is throwing away food because they don't use it by the expiration date, that's a lot of waste, which is not good. A lot of those people on that show seem to donate what they get to local food banks which is good of them.

The church has always encouraged us to have a year's supply of food and other necessities. I used to wonder why we would need that much, but after the economy that we have been going through I can see the usefulness of a year's supply. There have been so many people losing their jobs and not being able to find work for 6 months or more. If you have a year's supply of food then you are at least able to spend what little money you may have on other necessities like shelter, utilities, and transportation.

That speaks of the fact that the manufacturers never intended them to be used that way in the first place. This is what a lot are having a hard time seeing.

We should ask ourselves if everyone did it, would it continue? If, no, then it probably wasn't intended to be used that way.

It's not much of a "donation" if the food was obtained for free. It is really donated by all the people that pay full price for those items.

I don't think this thread was ever about food storage ... not sure how it got off on that tangent. The only reason the number of items is discussed is to show that the person never intended to try it out and see if they might like it enough to pay full price for it later. They are not using the coupon in the manner or intended purpose for which the manufacturers print the coupons, which is to advertise and to introduce the product to new customers.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[LDSJewess]

I view storing food and necessary items as sensible when the intention of the storage is for use. Whether it is used for economic or preparedness purposes such as:

1. Saving money by buying in bulk and then using the food and items before they spoil or go past expiration dates etc:

2. Preparing for disasters where the storage would likely be useful for those in surviving a survivable disaster. For instance, toilet paper stored under a bed in a one story home in a flood zone is not sensible preparedness for an impending flood disaster since the toilet paper would likely survice the flood and thus it is a waste of time and money. However, storing and updating food, water, medical and power sources in preparing for a survivable disaster is prudent. Since most natural distasters, storms, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes etc: will result in a loss of power, having a safe way to store cash, and non perishable items that will likely survive a disaster is also prudent.

Saving a year's worth of food for a nuclear holocause is wasteful because the person storing the items will not survive such a disaster and could better spend the time in preparation to meeting their maker.

Now what is hoarding?

1. Making purchase for sport when it is not like that you will be able to use the items purchased. The 150 bottles of barbeque sauce was a good example. Other food items that would perish before the excessive quantity could be reasonable used.

2. Another example of hoarding would be when such excessive amounts of products are stored in such as way as to create a health hazard by creating clutter in such excess whereby drawing pests , insects, rats etc:

3. Purchasing anything when the motivation for the purchase was because the purchase was a "good deal" but the product/s purchased are not something the person could use and the purchaser is not willing to sell or give to anyone who actually could use the item/s.

There is a huge difference between preparing and providing for your self and you family and collecting stuff that becomes rubbish.