Mormonism and the creation of the universe

[doss]

Hello,

I'm a Christian (non-denominational), but have some questions about Mormonism in general.

I believe as a Christian (and according to Scripture) that the world was created out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) by God, which when viewed with contemporary science with the Big Bang Cosmological model, makes sense.

Is it true that Mormons believe that God created the world out of pre-existing material? I seem to get contradictory answers when viewing the Book of Mormon, so what is it that Mormons believe?

Thank you.

Edited June 12, 2011 by doss

[Vort]

Yes, it is true. There is no such thing as immaterial matter. Latter-day Saints have never believed in ex nihilo creation. "The elements are eternal" (D&C 93:33).

[RipplecutBuddha]

A further study of the term used in Genesis (I cannot place the word immediately, so someone may help me with this) also indicates that the traditional english translation to 'create' would also be accurately translated to the english word 'organize'. In some people's view, this would be the more accurate translation. As such, it may be that creation ex nihilo was never the intended conclusion.

Even more interesting is the Law of the Conservation of Energy in physics which states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed by any means; it can only change from one form to another.

All the same, a supreme being that can merely speak and have matter and energy obey his will is just as miraculous and marvelous in my mind as a supreme being that could create from nothing at all. I prefer the former myself as it demonstrates to me that God operates within the laws of the universe that we understand, even if said understanding reaches only to a very limited degree.

[doss]

Thanks for responding to my question, Vort.

Ripple, I do not know enough about the translation issues and will have to defer to that at a later time. I do want to briefly discuss your other points.

"Even more interesting is the Law of the Conservation of Energy in physics which states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed by any means; it can only change from one form to another."

I don't see how this could be a problem with the Christian's creatio ex nihilo viewpoint. Christians believe that God created everything (energy, mass, time, space, etc.) from literally nothing. The Big Bang model predicts the same theory.

"All the same, a supreme being that can merely speak and have matter and energy obey his will is just as miraculous and marvelous in my mind as a supreme being that could create from nothing at all. I prefer the former myself as it demonstrates to me that God operates within the laws of the universe that we understand, even if said understanding reaches only to a very limited degree. "

But, if a God also exists with a pre-existing matter, especially matter he did not create if it was already "pre-existing", doesn't that show God is not all-powerful? What created that pre-existing matter?

It seems Mormons believe in an infinite past (pre-existing matter) . But, the infinite is nowhere to be seen in reality. It is merely abstract numbers for mathematics and are nowhere to be seen in nature.

I did not mean to go off on a tangent there, I actually was just wondering if the Mormon belief was in an eternal/infinite past and I got my answer from Vort. Now, I need to study which is more plausible....

[volgadon]

Doss, the biblical and ancient view is that God's superiority is in organising, ordering, and controlling chaotic matter and forces. This is particularly important when defining his relationship to his creatures. He controls and orders everything thus he can be counted on to provide and protect and save us. Even Philo, the Jewish philosopher contemporary with Jesus, held that God did not create absolutely everything, but that our intelligence is eternal.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I did not mean to go off on a tangent there, I actually was just wondering if the Mormon belief was in an eternal/infinite past and I got my answer from Vort. Now, I need to study which is more plausible....

What is 'plausible' is not a search based in faith. Spiritual matters are not understood well with the carnal mind. That search for what is 'plausible' according to the laws of the carnal world is a dead end in terms of understanding these spiritual matters.

What kind of test would this world be if we had all the answers in front of us?

If one doesn't think this life is a test then there is no need to understand anything about religion in the first place, especially mormonism. So, one thing to come to grips with in this search for understanding is to realize that you won't get all the answers in this life. ... otherwise, that would be a terrible way to test. The test being a measure of one's true nature revealed by faith based choices, not one's intellectual reasoning via the carnal mind. Choosing to only believe those things that are tangible or fully understood by the mind reveals one's true nature.

A source of enlightenment to learn to trust more is through the spirit or what we sometimes call the light of Christ. Faith is the first area to 'study', then you can understand our beliefs the best.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I don't see how this could be a problem with the Christian's creatio ex nihilo viewpoint. Christians believe that God created everything (energy, mass, time, space, etc.) from literally nothing. The Big Bang model predicts the same theory.

The problem I see is that ex nihilo requires a creation from nothing. Even in the big bang theory, all matter already existed in a super-dense packet of energy...that also already existed. The big bang theory is the release of all known existence, including time, from such a packet that expanded into the three spatial dimensions and one dimension of time that we recognize as the universe we are in. According to the known laws of physics matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed in any way at all. The big bang theory does not support creation ex nihilo at all.

Thus if the laws of physics are correct, (and I agree there is a possibility that they could be wrong in this instance) there is no way that God could have created anything from nothing. Further, not all Christians subscribe to creation ex nihilo, and there are other Christians besides the LDS church that disagree with it.

But, if a God also exists with a pre-existing matter, especially matter he did not create if it was already "pre-existing", doesn't that show God is not all-powerful? What created that pre-existing matter?

This depends upon your definition of all-powerful. For instance, God cannot commit the sin of blasphemy. Such an act is impossible for him to accomplish. There are other ways in which God can be all-powerful, yet limited. For instance the atonement of Christ; If there were a better way to atone for the sin of all mankind, don't you think God would have used it instead? The reason Christ suffered the way he did is that there is no other process whereby atonement can be accomplished. However, let there be no doubt that God fully conquered sin and death itself through that glorious act; a clear case of being all-powerful indeed.

It seems Mormons believe in an infinite past (pre-existing matter) . But, the infinite is nowhere to be seen in reality. It is merely abstract numbers for mathematics and are nowhere to be seen in nature.

The human mind cannot fully grasp the concept of eternity or infinity. It is a limitation within our own minds. That doesn't mean it isn't there. The human mind likewise cannot fully grasp the glory, power, and perfection of God. That doesn't mean he does not posess such qualities.

However, through the Bible we are given glimpses of the attributes of God here and there, for as Christ stated "This is life eternal, that they might know the, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

I did not mean to go off on a tangent there, I actually was just wondering if the Mormon belief was in an eternal/infinite past and I got my answer from Vort. Now, I need to study which is more plausible....

Which is more plausible from what standpoint? If you are approaching the question from the viewpoint of religious faith, your conclusions will vastly differ from a similiar examination from the viewpoint of scientific understanding. Even adjusting your examination to different religious viewpoints will render different results. Ultimately the truth must come from God himself, as he is the source of all truth and knowledge.

[Backroads]

It is often suggested that time is merely a human perception... thus we cannot grasp infinity as long as we are trying to apply time to it.

[Traveler]

As a scientist, physicist and engineer there are a number of things that have been glossed over in this thread. The Big Bang did not come from nothing - the latest theory was that the Big Bang was caused by a collapse of an 11 dimensional space universe. Another theory that is on the table and gaining popularity is that our universe is caused by one or more collisions between two or more universes of various dimensions - this is sometimes referred to as creation by expansion. The truth is that modern science does not know how the universe was created but for over 200 years there is not a scientific theory in modern times that believes that our universe came from nothing. Whoever is advertising that science supports the “from nothing” concept is completely uninformed and is practicing false pseudo science. I strongly suggest that their religious views be doubted as well.

Anciently the most prevalent concept of creation was that all things were created from a watery abyss. This ancient thought was prevalent in most if not all civilizations of the ancient world from Egypt to India and China. Furthermore, a careful reading of Genesis chapter 1 verse 2 indicates that at the very beginning of creation that G-d “moved upon the face of the deep” and upon the face of the waters. And then G-d said “Let there be light”. Clearly the scriptures do not contradict science - but many Christian religions do - and in that they error. Again, my advice is not to trust religions that say science proves something that it does not and that the scripture say something that they do not.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Actually, the Big Bang theory and ex nihilo creation do not work together. The Big Bang is not stuff being made from nothing, but rather a universe being made from everything. The Big Bang theory shows that matter always existed, just in a different form that was extremely compact. This fits properly with modern science theory of matter/energy/etc. And it fits better with an LDS belief in eternal matter than it does for ex nihilo creation.

The ancients taught that God created order from chaos, the watery abyss that Traveler mentioned above. I wrote a blog several months ago on the Creation, and how God brings forth order from chaos. This is replicated not only in the Creation motif, but also with Moses at the Red Sea, and in Jesus' atonement.

Joel's Monastery: Gospel Scholarship: Order out of Chaos

[NeuroTypical]

Welcome doss. I hope you're finding the responses here useful. One comment:

I don't see how this could be a problem with the Christian's creatio ex nihilo viewpoint. Christians believe that God created everything (energy, mass, time, space, etc.) from literally nothing.

I just wanted to point out that while you can say "many Christians" or maybe even "most Christians" believe in ex nihilo, it is not correct to say we all do.

Because I'm a Christian, and I don't believe the ex nihilo viewpoint.

[apexviper13]

Here's an article about this matter:

Reviews of The New Mormon Challenge

I would also like to point out there are controversies on how long it took God to create everything. If you read in Genesis, yes, it says God created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th. However, if you go to the New Testament it gives information that could be significant to the creation.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

One earth day is equal to 1,000 years with Christ. With that being said, there are 2 time-frames we're given as to how long it took for the creation: 6 earth days of work and 1 of rest and the other is 6000 years according to the Lord with 1000 years of rest.

[rameumptom]

One day for Christ could be longer or shorter than 1000 years. Many take that concept literally. However, it could be figurative, because in the days of the apostles, one thousand years was equal to an eternity. They did not have/use the huge numbers like we have today (so John the Revelator describes huge numbers in thousands of thousands, for instance).

It may be that a day for the Lord is just long. It may not be a specific period of time as we use time.

[hungrytrash]

If you don't believe anything is infinite, look at time itself. Do you suppose there will be an end to time? If humanity was never wiped out, who would be the last human to be born? If it's easy for us to believe that time won't ever end, why is it so difficult to understand that it never began? You're used to thinking that nothing can exist without it being created. Nature shows the exact opposite. Things can be created in the sense that they are changed and formed out of existing things. But creating things from nothing defies all logic.

Why do so many Christians not recognize the fallacy of saying, "Well, who created the universe then? Someone had to create it!"

If that was the case, then someone would have had to create God. And if it's logical for you that God can exist eternally, why is it any less logical to say that the universe existed eternally with God?

Thinking about God existing eternally by Himself, with absolutely nothing else. Time, space, none of it existed. Well, at least to me, it sounds a bit ridiculous. God was there for an eternity by Himself and then one day He decided to create the entire universe out of nothing?

No matter which way you look at it, the concept of infinity is forced into your beliefs. Either God was created by some Super God, and the Super God was created by some Super Super God, going forth forever, or God Himself had no beginning and existed forever, or everything (God and the Universe) had no beginning and existed forever.

The concept of everything eternally existing makes sense. That's sound doctrine. It is satisfying and fulfilling.

And if anything, I feel that it glorifies God more. It makes Him real. It makes Him to a degree, knowable. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." No matter how long I lived, no matter how much knowledge God imparted to me, if God was what most Christians think He is, I would never be able to comprehend Him. Why? Because that idea of God doesn't make sense. I like when things make sense. Anything real makes sense. And should make sense. That doesn't mean I expect to be able to understand even a portion of the mysteries of God in mortality, but I do expect that there is order to it all and that, if granted by God the intellect to know them, they would make sense.

[doss]

Hey all,

Sorry I've been away. I'd like to continue this discussion. Rather than emotion, lets bring this thread back to my original question: Does the Mormon believe that God created the world from pre-existing material? According to the BoM, yes. But, my issue is that this view goes against contemporary science (well, ancient church fathers had the same view as today's science) and the Bible. This is a HUGE stumbling block for me and why I can't accept the BoM.

[annewandering]

Why does this go against science? Truth is truth where ever its found.

[Justice]

I seem to get contradictory answers when viewing the Book of Mormon, so what is it that Mormons believe?

Where did you get contradictory answers in the Book of Mormon for the creation story? What books and chapters specifically does it talk about the creation of the world, and where exactly does it contradict with? I'd like to take a look for myself.

[Justice]

But, my issue is that this view goes against ... the Bible. This is a HUGE stumbling block for me and why I can't accept the BoM.

I think you need to really study the creation story in the Bible. I don't think it says what you think it does.

The word for "created" in verse 1 is "bara" and it does not mean "created out of nothing." I don't know what sources you're reading, but the only people who would say it means "out of nothing" are either those who do not know and are repeating what someone told them, or someone who believes in the Trinity and is twisting Hebrew to mean what they want it to mean because it fits their view. So, for them to take it as "out of existing matter" would destroy the Trinity because the Trinity God has to exist before matter.

There isn't one real, unbiased expert that will tell you it means "created from nothing."

In fact, look at verses 1 and 2 through an analytical transliteration into English:

1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth

2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

The ancient Hebrews did not believe that "heaven and earth" meant "the universe." They knew it to mean the "expanse" and the "dry land." They had a word for the universe, but they did not use it.

Look at the text in your own Bible (KJV):

Genesis 1:

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

10 And God called the dry land Earth;

So, according to God's definition of terms, verse 1 is saying:

1 In the beginning God created the firmament and the dry land.

This isn't Justice's trick to fool anyone, these definitions are given by God to Moses of what He created. And, if you read it close, the water was present when God "moved" upon their face, or moved to it's location. He didn't create anything before He created "light" in verse 3, yet the water is already present in verse 2.

Read verses 1 through 10 over and over until it sinks in. It will open in your mind like a movie.

[Justice]

Remember, science used to be able to prove that the sun revolved around the earth, and that the earth was flat.

[volgadon]

Hey all,

Sorry I've been away. I'd like to continue this discussion. Rather than emotion, lets bring this thread back to my original question: Does the Mormon believe that God created the world from pre-existing material?

Which Mormon? If you are asking do Mormons believe that God created the world from pre-existing material then we have already answered.

According to the BoM, yes. But, my issue is that this view goes against contemporary science (well, ancient church fathers had the same view as today's science) and the Bible. This is a HUGE stumbling block for me and why I can't accept the BoM.

Do you have to accept creatio ex nihilo in order to be a Christian?

Augustine's view of creation is not that foreign to LDS teachings.

But the earth was invisible and unformed, and darkness was over the abyss.” By these words its formlessness is indicated to us--so that by degrees they may be led forward who cannot wholly conceive of the privation of all form without arriving at nothing. From this formlessness a second heaven might be created and a second earth--visible and well formed, with the ordered beauty of the waters, and whatever else is recorded as created (though not without days) in the formation of this world. And all this because such things are so ordered that in them the changes of time may take place through the ordered processes of motion and form.

-Confessions 12:15.

[volgadon]

For thy Almighty hand, that made the world of matter without form, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears or fierce lions,

-Wisdom of Solomon 11:17.

Here God has made the world out of matter which already exists.

[doss]

Hi Justice,

Thanks for the info. An "analytical transliteration into English?" What do you mean?

Hi Justice,

Thanks for the info.

In Genesis 1:1 : "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Ancient Hebrew had no words for "the universe". When an ancient Hebrew speaker wanted to refer to the universe, he would use the expression "the heavens and the earth" to refer to the universe. This is ex nihilo – out of nothing. So, Genesis 1:1 states in effect that God created the heavens and the earth. Therefore, it implies that God created everything without any pre-existing material. Now, some scholars have tried to deny this fact by translating Genesis 1:1 as a subordinate clause.

“When God created the universe in the beginning, the earth was without form and void." which may make it sound like the earth was already there. But, most scholars today recognize this to be a mis-translation of the Hebrew. In the Hebrew, there is a conjuction "AND" between verses 1 and 2. And when you have a dramatic construction like this, what you have is TWO main clauses with the first one providing background information for the second. So, verse 1 states, "In the beginning, God created the ‘universe’". And then in verse 2, the focus radically narrows…"And the earth was without form and void." So, in contrast, with the Greek view, the Hebrew worldview was that matter and energy was NOT eternal and was created at some finite time in the past by God. This was also the world-view of New Testament Christians. The Gospel of John opens with words that were very reminiscent of Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. All things were made through Him, and without him was not anything made. Again, John 1 versus 1 and 3.

The doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is also implied in various places in early extra-biblical Jewish literature. And the Church Fathers, while heavily influenced by Greek thought, dug in their heels concerning the doctrine of creation, sturdily insisting on the creation of the universe ex nihilo in opposition to the eternity of matter.

Futhermore, we have philosophical (e.g. “All things that exist have a cause”) and scientific evidence (Big Bang theory) that aligns with the orthodox Christian view.

Perhaps I am missing something?

[bytebear]

Therefore, it implies that God created everything without any pre-existing material.

Implies???!?? Whoa! That is a huge assumption. One I cannot accept logically. The firmament/land argument was far more compelling. I also believe prophets trump "Church Fathers" who argued bitterly despite your claims that the concept was cut and dry when it was adopted. (Just the fact that it had to be adopted is telling)

Edited November 24, 2011 by bytebear

[doss]

Which Mormon? If you are asking do Mormons believe that God created the world from pre-existing material then we have already answered.

Do you have to accept creatio ex nihilo in order to be a Christian?

Augustine's view of creation is not that foreign to LDS teachings.

Later, Augustine himself simply declared that God "created heaven and earth out of nothing."

See Augustine, Confessions 12.7.

[doss]

I'll be away for a few days, but I appreciate the discussion. Need to go get some turkey. Have a great week.