Mormonism and the creation of the universe


doss
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Socrates continued: And where can we hope to find greater benefits than those which children derive from their parents--their father and mother who brought them out of nothingness into being, who granted them to look upon all these fair sights, and to partake of all those blessings which the gods bestow on man, things so priceless in our eyes that one and all we shudder at the thought of leaving them...

Xenophon, Memorabilia 2:2.

All this phrase means is that something is here which wasn't before. It certainly never even asks the question of whether or not the matter has existed previously.

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Later, Augustine himself simply declared that God "created heaven and earth out of nothing."

See Augustine, Confessions 12.7.

Later??? If you'll look, Confessions 12:7 precedes 12:15. Since he explains that things existed invisibly and without a form, the statement regarding creation out of nothing has to be qualified.

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Maybe I'm going off of topic, but modern science no longer favors a big bang theory where nothing becomes something. Most support that there was something before the big bang and there are several intriguing theories that work in cycles, much like the rest of nature works in cycles.

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Later??? If you'll look, Confessions 12:7 precedes 12:15. Since he explains that things existed invisibly and without a form, the statement regarding creation out of nothing has to be qualified.

No, Augustine understood it to be ex nihilo and cites Genesis 1:1 as the universe being created out of nothing. Augustine said that if the heavens and earth could speak they would cry out, "We did not make ourselves, we were made by him who abides by eternity."

For more reading:

The Everything Guide to ... - Kenneth Shouler - Google Books

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Maybe I'm going off of topic, but modern science no longer favors a big bang theory where nothing becomes something. Most support that there was something before the big bang and there are several intriguing theories that work in cycles, much like the rest of nature works in cycles.

Hi Jerome,

You are not going off topic :D

As having been fascinated by this topic for a few years now, I can say that modern science can not explain what happened before the Big Bang, but we do know this: all time, space, and MATTER came into existence during the Big Bang. The problem and disagreement tends to be in the energy state prior to the Big Bang. Theologically, Philosophically, and currently, Scientifically, there is literally nothing before the Big Bang. The problem with the singularity view (your post), is that it's not feasible due to a recent experiment:

"It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning (Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176)."

At some finite time in our past, the universe was created out of nothing. For matter and energy to have always existed, you will have to deal with an eternal and infinite past--impossible in science and philosophy. For, the only way for something to exist infinite it would have to be an abstract number!

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At some finite time in our past, the universe was created out of nothing. For matter and energy to have always existed, you will have to deal with an eternal and infinite past--impossible in science and philosophy. For, the only way for something to exist infinite it would have to be an abstract number!

I guess you just proved that God is an abstract number!

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No, Augustine understood it to be ex nihilo and cites Genesis 1:1 as the universe being created out of nothing. Augustine said that if the heavens and earth could speak they would cry out, "We did not make ourselves, we were made by him who abides by eternity."

For more reading:

The Everything Guide to ... - Kenneth Shouler - Google Books

I'll post the direct quote later tonight, buthe also stated that heaven & earth are formless matter changed into form.

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Hi Justice,

Thanks for the info. An "analytical transliteration into English?" What do you mean?

You didn't visit the link I posted. What it means is the authors took the Hebrew text and translated it into English with no thought of word association or common opinion, but into what that word most closely meant in Hebrew. They made no attempt to reorder or make the sentence make sense. Their only goal was to do a word for word "transliteration" so you can see exactly what the words mean in Hebrew, not trying to sway beliefs based on any Christian opinion.

Ancient Hebrew had no words for "the universe".

They had a very simplified way to describe "all things." I'll look it up. I've seemed to have lost it.

When an ancient Hebrew speaker wanted to refer to the universe, he would use the expression "the heavens and the earth" to refer to the universe. This is ex nihilo – out of nothing.

God defined what He meant by heaven and earth in the text for us. Didn't you read any of my post? I'd like for you to explain what else He could have meant. There's no need to know what an ancient Hebrew speaker meant (but I know they had a way to describe "all things" and it wasn't used here).

Anyway, what about verses 8 and 10 that describe exactly what God meant by heaven and earth?

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Hey all,

my issue is that this view goes against contemporary science

Hey doss :) I made the mistake of reading this thread from the beginning without noticing it was quite old and got confused as to why do you ignore some very good comments that have been made and then I saw you've been absent for 3-4 months so maybe you just forgot about them?

Since you keep saying that the Big Bang theory supports creation ex nihilo (did I spell that right? :P ) and that "we do know this: all time, space, and MATTER came into existence during the Big Bang" - I thought I'd copy-paste for you this comment by The Traveller which he made in the very beginning of the discussion in order to clarify the scientific side of it:

As a scientist, physicist and engineer there are a number of things that have been glossed over in this thread. The Big Bang did not come from nothing - the latest theory was that the Big Bang was caused by a collapse of an 11 dimensional space universe. Another theory that is on the table and gaining popularity is that our universe is caused by one or more collisions between two or more universes of various dimensions - this is sometimes referred to as creation by expansion. The truth is that modern science does not know how the universe was created but for over 200 years there is not a scientific theory in modern times that believes that our universe came from nothing. Whoever is advertising that science supports the “from nothing” concept is completely uninformed and is practicing false pseudo science. I strongly suggest that their religious views be doubted as well.

Anciently the most prevalent concept of creation was that all things were created from a watery abyss. This ancient thought was prevalent in most if not all civilizations of the ancient world from Egypt to India and China. Furthermore, a careful reading of Genesis chapter 1 verse 2 indicates that at the very beginning of creation that G-d “moved upon the face of the deep” and upon the face of the waters. And then G-d said “Let there be light”. Clearly the scriptures do not contradict science - but many Christian religions do - and in that they error. Again, my advice is not to trust religions that say science proves something that it does not and that the scripture say something that they do not.

The Traveler

Edited by Ivo_G
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Hey all,

Sorry I've been away. I'd like to continue this discussion. Rather than emotion, lets bring this thread back to my original question: Does the Mormon believe that God created the world from pre-existing material? According to the BoM, yes. But, my issue is that this view goes against contemporary science (well, ancient church fathers had the same view as today's science) and the Bible. This is a HUGE stumbling block for me and why I can't accept the BoM.

I have to disagree with you, doss. No "big bangers" believes in ex nihilo, hence i got almost slapped because i accidently told a science nerd that they believe that the universe was created out of nothing. According to scientists, the universe started from already existing matter that collided and started the big bang. Some new discoveries even gives scientists a hint that there maybe was a universe before this universe as they speculated about in years

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Augustine said that if the heavens and earth could speak they would cry out, "We did not make ourselves, we were made by him who abides by eternity."

How does this lean his opinion toward "from nothing" over "from existing?" This is perfectly acceptable from either camp.

The heavens and earth (or expanse and dry land, as God stated in the Bible) were indeed made by God. No one in this discussion is disputing that. All believe his comment here to be true.

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Quote from the comments Traveler quoted:

Anciently the most prevalent concept of creation was that all things were created from a watery abyss. This ancient thought was prevalent in most if not all civilizations of the ancient world from Egypt to India and China.

Isn't it interesting that the Bible teaches that God created "heaven and earth" by moving to and commanding water? It's a foregone conclusion that God commands the elements by His example in the New Testament where He spoke and calmed the wind and rain.

The creation story is beautifully symbolized by Moses moving to and parting the water to reveal "expanse and dry land." But, Moses could not have parted "nothing," just as God could not have "divided" nothing in the creation story. Just as the creation story says, God divided the waters from the waters to reveal expanse and dry land (see the sybolism in Moses parting the waters).

Edited by Justice
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I believe as a Christian (and according to Scripture) that the world was created out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) by God, which when viewed with contemporary science with the Big Bang Cosmological model, makes sense.

So, something I'm confused about.

From your standpoint: First, there was nothing - then, there was the heavens and the earth all fully formed through God's power? Do I have that correct?

Because the Big Bang theory says nothing about how the earth was formed. It's been a while since my astronomy and earth sciences college classes, but the planetary formation theories they taught me, all involved a bunch of pre-existing matter all being there, and then slowly accreting into a ring, and then further accreting into a planetary body.

As a faithful LDS guy, the Big Bang theory and planetary formation science fits nicely into my faith's creation stories. Where's the problem?

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More detail with scripture:

Immediately after creating "light" (ending in verse 5), the Biblical account goes on to say:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Now, as I have been saying, once you understand what "firmament" is, this scripture can only be taken one way. In verse 8 God defines firmament as heaven. So, He describes how He created heaven here by saying He divided waters from waters so a heaven, or expanse as in Hebrew, could be in the midst of the water. The heaven, or expanse, would divide the water from the water.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Verse 7 builds on this interpretation of verse 6, it does not tear it down. Gad made the firmament (or heaven) and the waters were now above and below each other, separated in verse 6 to reveal "expanse."

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

How does the Bible teach that God "created the heaven?" If you say anything other than "by dividing the water from the water" then you and I are not reading the same Bible, or you are twisting it's words to say what you need it to say.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

I see this as the official "forming" of the shape of the earth, since it started out as water "without form and void" in verse 2. It can also be used to believe that there was one land mass (dry land) on the earth at the time (but not mandatory).

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Again, dry land equals earth, or part of what God created in Genesis chapter 1.

So, just as the symbolism in the account of Moses parting the water, it exposed "expanse" where water used to be, and then dry land by further dividing the water.

Where in scripture or nature do you have an example of something being created from nothing? Where is that symbolized in the Bible?

Edited by Justice
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Where in scripture or nature do you have an example of something being created from nothing? Where is that symbolized in the Bible?

Interesting point with this: Jewish scholar Richard Elliott Friedman(The head of NYU's Jewish Studies department at the time) wrote a treatise on this in his 'Commentary on the Torah' book. Well worth a look.

The only thing expressly created ex nihilo in the bible is light.

Also: The Jewish scholar explained that the bible doesn't necessarily start at the very beginning, as the Jewish says:

Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets.

In this, the creation is discussed as an ownership and might more properly be termed "In the beginning of God's creation of the Heavens and the Earth."

I'm not a Jewish scholar. This is simply what the head of Jewish Studies at one of the most prestigious universities in the world said.

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Well, even light existed before Genesis 1. Light emmanates from God's presence. To think light did not exist where God dwelt is saying light did not exist.

It beggs the question, where does God exist? Does He float around in the darkness of space? Or, does He exist on a place much more beautiful than this earth?

Logic and common sense reveals the answer. Light exists where God exists.

Thanks for the quote, Funky.

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Hello,

I'm a Christian (non-denominational), but have some questions about Mormonism in general.

I believe as a Christian (and according to Scripture) that the world was created out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) by God, which when viewed with contemporary science with the Big Bang Cosmological model, makes sense.

Is it true that Mormons believe that God created the world out of pre-existing material? I seem to get contradictory answers when viewing the Book of Mormon, so what is it that Mormons believe?

Thank you.

I imagine that others may have already posted on this but can I ask, why do you believe in creation out of nothing when such a doctrine is not found in the Bible and not believe by God's earlier chosen people, the Jews. If creation from nothing was true and/or important, don't you think God might have said so?

Edited by Snow
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Interesting point with this: Jewish scholar Richard Elliott Friedman(The head of NYU's Jewish Studies department at the time) wrote a treatise on this in his 'Commentary on the Torah' book. Well worth a look.

The only thing expressly created ex nihilo in the bible is light.

Also: The Jewish scholar explained that the bible doesn't necessarily start at the very beginning, as the Jewish says:

In this, the creation is discussed as an ownership and might more properly be termed "In the beginning of God's creation of the Heavens and the Earth."

I'm not a Jewish scholar. This is simply what the head of Jewish Studies at one of the most prestigious universities in the world said.

Spot on. It could also be rendered "At the commencement of God creating the Heavens and the Earth the Eearth was Tohu wa-Bohu (often rendered as 'without form and void')."

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As promised.

The quote can be found in the "Ancient Commentary on Scripture" series, the volume dealing with Genesis 1-11.

Scripture called heaven and earth that formless matter of the universe, which was changed into formed and beautiful natures by God's ineffable command....This heaven and earth, which were confused and mixed up, were suited to receive forms from God their maker.

Augustine, "On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis," 3:10.

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Hello,

I'm a Christian (non-denominational), but have some questions about Mormonism in general.

I believe as a Christian (and according to Scripture) that the world was created out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) by God, which when viewed with contemporary science with the Big Bang Cosmological model, makes sense.

Is it true that Mormons believe that God created the world out of pre-existing material? I seem to get contradictory answers when viewing the Book of Mormon, so what is it that Mormons believe?

Thank you.

Science accepts that everything is either energy or matter except the vacuum of space, I suppose. So by definition something cannot be created from nothing, because nothing does not exist in nature.

AFAIK there is nothing in the bible that states the world was created from nothing. To believe this is patently absurd.

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