Premissionary stuck in a situation


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I don’t know that I have condemned the church or criticized any leader, all of my comments have been a general ‘the church could do better in this area’

Criticism (n) 1) the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything. 2) the act of passing severe judgment; censure; faultfinding.

Criticism | Define Criticism at Dictionary.com

Condemnation (n) 3) strong censure; disapprobation; reproof.

Condemnation | Define Condemnation at Dictionary.com

Sorry, but you have.

That is how we learn, we make theories and come to conclusion and then test them against others theories and conclusions.

In regards to things solely based on intellect, you are absolutely correct. In regards to issues of religion, this doesn't work. If we truly want to learn about God's plans for us, reason is not enough. We are limited in our understanding. We also need prayer, the Holy Ghost, and divine guidance.

All that being said, debate and this type of discussion is not for everyone so I understand your frustration and remember if you right your right nothing I say will change that so there is no need to debate but if you are willing to entertain the possibility of being wrong, challenge what I have said or adopt it for yourself.

Um...no ;) I choose option c) moving on to a discussion that is uplifting and beneficial. I neither want to adopt the position that the church is wrong, nor do I care to challenge what you've said. It's not accomplishing anything. When hearts and minds aren't open, debates invite the spirit of contention. I think we can both agree that contention is Satan's tool, yes?

It all boils down to this, saintish: Do you believe the church is true? Do you believe that the representatives of the church are called of God and have the authority to lead the church? If so, then this is entire discussion is unnecessary. The Lord hasn't called you or me, he called them. If one of us were a better choice for the position, I suspect we'd be sitting on the podium in General Conference instead of ranting into the Intertubez on our work breaks :lol:

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Guest saintish

This is just ridiculous, If you don’t like my opinions fine, refute them. Instead it’s ‘don’t criticize the church leaders’ or ‘you believe the church is true don’t you’. It completely dodges the point. I’m done, no sense in beating a dead horse.

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This is just ridiculous, If you don’t like my opinions fine, refute them.

Ok the facts that you use to support you opinion of to much pressure leading to crappy missions and falling away from the church. Personal experience and the experience of what other people have told you. Totally anecdotal evidence of a very small sample size. Yet you claim that this is happening in large worrisome numbers. But facts aren't the only thing. There is also the authority. The god given power to speak in his name and interpret his will. Well you have it for yourself and for your children. But baring other church calling, this is the sum total of the strength and proof of your opinion that you claim is 'right'

Your opinion is up against the current status of how the Church runs things. The Church has the number of young men of missionary age. It knows the numbers that fall away, it knows the numbers that go on missions, it knows the numbers that leave missions early and why. They have cold, hard, facts of what is really going on. They also have people at each level that have the god given right so speak his will to all those at that level. So they have both facts and authority to correct problems. There is plenty of evidence that they respond to changing conditions both in retention and missionary work. That they are not afraid to council, advise, rebuke, or change things when they feel it need. Thus the current status is their opinion on what it necessary.

Given the facts each person gets to judge on if they think your opinion on what needs to be done or the church opinion on what needs to be done is more likely to be correct.

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Guest saintish

Ok the facts that you use to support you opinion of to much pressure leading to crappy missions and falling away from the church.

I don’t believe I said that, this is what I said on page one:

“do we need missionaries? yes we certainly do. We dont, however, need boys who only go on missions because its what all men in there family do, their parents promised them a car, or college tuition, or they know its the only way they will marry another member. Young men should serve because they want to serve G_d, and for no other reason.”

I believe Carl62 is the one that said they fall away after their missions, I never made that claim or guessed at the numbers.

Yet you claim that this is happening in large worrisome numbers.

Again the only claim of numbers I made was that there were too many young men being pressured to serve, regardless of whether they end up going or not.

Your opinion is up against the current status of how the Church runs things. The Church has the number of young men of missionary age. It knows the numbers that fall away, it knows the numbers that go on missions, it knows the numbers that leave missions early and why. They have cold, hard, facts of what is really going on.

I don’t dispute that but it is hard to get numbers on how people feel and what makes them do things. Those numbers you mentioned won’t do that.

They also have people at each level that have the god given right so speak his will to all those at that level.

Are they listening?

Given the facts each person gets to judge on if they think your opinion on what needs to be done or the church opinion on what needs to be done is more likely to be correct.

Did I ever say they couldn’t? In fact I even challenged anyone to refute it.
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I don’t believe I said that, this is what I said on page one:

“do we need missionaries? yes we certainly do. We dont, however, need boys who only go on missions because its what all men in there family do, their parents promised them a car, or college tuition, or they know its the only way they will marry another member. Young men should serve because they want to serve G_d, and for no other reason.”

I believe Carl62 is the one that said they fall away after their missions, I never made that claim or guessed at the numbers.

Sorry for confusing you by combining an answer to Carl62 in with what I wrote to you

Again the only claim of numbers I made was that there were too many young men being pressured to serve, regardless of whether they end up going or not.

Which is a claim based on anecdotal evidence and small sample size. Plus the phrase 'too many' and 'pressured' are way open to mean anything

I don’t dispute that but it is hard to get numbers on how people feel and what makes them do things. Those numbers you mentioned won’t do that.

Except that both the Bishop and the Stake President interview those that go on mission and part of that interview is to find out worthiness, which includes why they are going.

And for those that don't go, the Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood, part of his job is to be working with the boys and finding out what is going on. So no, your claim that the church doesn't know is not supported. Given the system in place it seems very likely that they will have a very good idea.

Are they listening?

Comments like this do not refute anything. But they add more to the pile of those things that you have said that come off critical of church leaders

Did I ever say they couldn’t? In fact I even challenged anyone to refute it.

You have been refuted... in as much as any opinion can be. Your supporting evidence is show as nothing.

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Guest saintish

Except that both the Bishop and the Stake President interview those that go on mission and part of that interview is to find out worthiness, which includes why they are going.

And my point is that the young men who are pressured into serving aren’t going to tell the bishop or stake president “I’m only going because my parents threatened to kick me out of the house if I don’t.”

And for those that don't go, the Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood, part of his job is to be working with the boys and finding out what is going on. So no, your claim that the church doesn't know is not supported. Given the system in place it seems very likely that they will have a very good idea.

There are a lot of Ifs in that scenario, if the bishop continues to meet with the young man and doesn’t write him off, if the young man even continues to attend church, if the boy is honest with the bishop when he meets with him.

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I know, I know...I was going to be done with this topic :) But I hate to see someone so obviously upset about something.

Most of us are not comfortable criticizing church leaders or church policies, but even if we were, what would it accomplish? Say all of us agreed with you...would you call for a petition? Have us email your Stake President?

We know how you feel. And I don't disagree that some young men are being treated badly for their decision, just who is responsible. Let's make this a positive exercise and suggest things we can do in our own spheres of authority to make things better.

For example,

  • You could create a website with information for parents on how you think they should approach a son who doesn't want to go on a mission.
  • You could create a pamphlet for young men who are having trouble expressing why they don't want to go.
  • You could create a list of resources for young men who have to deal with extremes like being kicked out of the house.
  • You could suggest that the Priesthood Quorum in your ward create a task group aimed at young men who haven't gone on missions, who could visit them, include them, and reassure them that Heavenly Father still loves them.

What do you think?

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Guest saintish

To be 100% honest I would be elated just to have it more widely know/ accepted.

I come from a military background and we do what you call “criticizing” except it is never aimed at an individual, always an organization or group as a whole. We do that so that we can highlight what is working well and what’s not working so well so that it can be addressed and fixed and not forgotten or lost in the shuffle.

You have suggested a lot of good ideas but first there has to be an accepted problem. Thanks for your reply.

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To be 100% honest I would be elated just to have it more widely know/ accepted.

I come from a military background and we do what you call “criticizing” except it is never aimed at an individual, always an organization or group as a whole. We do that so that we can highlight what is working well and what’s not working so well so that it can be addressed and fixed and not forgotten or lost in the shuffle.

You have suggested a lot of good ideas but first there has to be an accepted problem. Thanks for your reply.

That makes sense. From my perspective, I approach things from the bottom up. I like grass-roots movements, leading by example, and watching small projects grow into something big. I prefer to look at things from the perspective of an individual rather than a group as a whole, which is probably why we were locking horns so much :)

You don't need validation from an Internet junkie like me. It doesn't matter if I personally accept it as a problem or not. If you see it as a problem, then as far as I'm concerned it IS an accepted problem, at least from one person's point of view. And it only takes one person to start a change. If you start the ball rolling, it can't possibly get lost in the shuffle because you are championing a solution. Other people who share your views will jump in and help.

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