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WillowTheWhisp

Is this doctrine?

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My daughter came home from church today with something I had never heard of before which she had been taught in her young adult gospel doctrine class. I taught this lesson about the second coming of the Saviour in a different class and certainly never came across this story in my manual nor have I ever heard it before.

She was told that before the Saviour returns two Apostles or members of the First Presidency will be called to Jerusalem, where they will be killed and then resurrected and return breathing fire.

I have never heard of any such thing before and yet our Bishop, who taught the class, told my daughter that it's in the Scriptures but he couldn't remember where and to search for it on the church website. I tried doing that when we got home but couldn't find anything on the subject.

Has anyone else ever been taught this? I am totally confused.

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Either Daniel or Revelation talks about two servants who preach for (I think) three and a half years prior to the second coming, who are ultimately killed, who lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, and then are resurrected immediately prior to Christ's return to the Mount of Olives.

The identity of these servants as apostles of the LDS Church is a reasonable--but perhaps not a necessary--supposition, based on that Biblical prophecy.

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I have found reference in Revelation to the two prophets who preach for thousand two hundred and threescore days and are then killed, but there's nothing about them breathing fire. They lie dead for 3 and a half days and then God breathes life into them and they ascend to Heaven.

Edited by WillowTheWhisp

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My daughter came home from church today with something I had never heard of before which she had been taught in her young adult gospel doctrine class. I taught this lesson about the second coming of the Saviour in a different class and certainly never came across this story in my manual nor have I ever heard it before.

She was told that before the Saviour returns two Apostles or members of the First Presidency will be called to Jerusalem, where they will be killed and then resurrected and return breathing fire.

I have never heard of any such thing before and yet our Bishop, who taught the class, told my daughter that it's in the Scriptures but he couldn't remember where and to search for it on the church website. I tried doing that when we got home but couldn't find anything on the subject.

Has anyone else ever been taught this? I am totally confused.

Hi Willow. Parley P. Pratt and Bruce R. McConkie are two of some of the leaders who talked about this revelation from the scriptures however I never heard about the reference on "breathing fire".

“John, in his 11th chapter of Revelations, gives us many more particulars concerning this same event. He informs us that, after the city and temple are rebuilt by the Jews, the Gentiles will tread it under foot forty and two months, during which time there will be two prophets continually prophesying and working mighty miracles. And it seems that the Gentile army shall be hindered from utterly destroying and overthrowing the city, while these two prophets continue. But, after a struggle of three years and a half, they at length succeed in destroying these two prophets, and then overrunning much of the city; they send gifts to each other because of the death of the two prophets; and in the meantime will not allow their dead bodies to be put in graves; but suffer them to lie in the streets of Jerusalem three days and a half, during which the armies of the Gentiles, consisting of many kindreds, tongues and nations, passing through the city, plundering the Jews see their dead bodies lying in the street. But, after three days and a half on a sudden, the spirit of life from God enters them, and they will arise and stand upon their feet, and great fear will fall upon them that see them. And then they shall hear a voice from heaven saying, ‘Come up hither,’ and they will ascend up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beholding them. And having described all these things, then comes the shaking, spoken of by Ezekiel, and the rending of the Mount of Olives, spoken of by Zechariah. John says, ‘The same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand.’ And then one of the next scenes that follow is the sound of voices, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.’ (Parley P. Pratt, in A Voice of Warning, p.41 – 42)

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Thanks Suzie, that was what I found in Revelation (I typed Daniel above because I was thinking of looking in Daniel next so my brain did a woolly leap!) but I can find no reference at all to this breathing of fire and yet it was made rather an issue of in my daughter's lesson. I am really struggling to find where the teaching comes from.

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Revelation 11

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Did a quick google for it and this is the passage from Revelations which mentions the fire breathing. Does anyone have a link to someone in authority stating that these will be LDS apostles?

Edited by GB-UK

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Thanks GB. I'd tried Googling but all I got was stuff about dragons and role play in fantasy games! I think I'm beginning to see that there may have been some misquoting or mis-reporting of a half remembered scripture involved here. Verse 11 which mentions 'fire proceedeth out of their mouth' refers to the period when these two prophets were still alive and prophesying. It doesn't say anything about them breathing fire after being resurrected. In fact they don't seem to do anything after being restored to life except ascend into Heaven. It does say prophets and if we assume there is only one source of true prophets then it would have to be members of the first presidency of the church but that is kind of an assumption. I do wish people would quote actual scripture with chapter and verse when they are teaching a principle, or at least quote a general authority. Things can get a little confusing whenn people put their own slant on what they half remember or think they heard somebody else say. We have been warned so many times in Conference not to teach from anything but reliable sources and not to perpetuate urban myths. Sometimes there seems to be a very fine line between those and reality.

I hadn't seen this 'fire proceedeth out of their mouth' in a literal sense myself. I'd looked at it more as the power of the words they were speaking and the truths they were preaching.

Thanks again for all your help.

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It is interesting stuff but I have come to realize that we spend way too much of our energy studying on things of speculation and far too little time on things of importance to our salvation. I think we tend to get lost in details or knowledge and don't pay enough attention to the doctrines of salvation. Just me. I am not trying to criticize your Bishop. He may have had spiritual reason to share things of trivial speculation. To recognize signs is helpful and important - but what is more important is that we are living righteously so that it doesn't matter when all these events happen - we will have our lamps full and reserves to spare.

What I am trying to say is that we often get lost in things of knowledge and disregard wisdom.

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She was told that before the Saviour returns two Apostles or members of the First Presidency will be called to Jerusalem, where they will be killed and then resurrected and return breathing fire.

Why can't people just stick to the important doctrines of salvation? Why the urge to delve into the interpretation of Revelation or identify Isaiah's "marred servant" or debate the significance of Ezekiel's valley of dried bones or any of a thousand other riddles the scriptures present -- which for the most part will eventually be discovered to be intercultural translation or linguistic issues that render moot the discussion, figurative language being misinterpreted or misapplied, or some other such thing?

When a member of the First Presidency speaks in General Conference about the two servants in Jerusalem being apostles and/or breathing fire, then I will consider it an authoritative interpretation and important to understand. Until then, I classify it with all the other useless speculation that regularly occurs among the Latter-day Saints.

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I tend to agree with you unless the matter comes up in the lesson manual in which case it is valid and relevant. My interest in this was really because it was something I hadn't come across in my own lesson and my daughter was curious about it, having been taught by the Bishop. The scriptures do tell us to watch out for the signs, like the leaves on the fig tree letting us know the time is at hand.

It could also lead to a bit of a casual attitude I suppose though if we think that we're OK so long as 2 Apostles haven't been killed in Jerusalem and left unburied for 3 or 4 days.

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My daughter came home from church today with something I had never heard of before which she had been taught in her young adult gospel doctrine class. I taught this lesson about the second coming of the Saviour in a different class and certainly never came across this story in my manual nor have I ever heard it before.

She was told that before the Saviour returns two Apostles or members of the First Presidency will be called to Jerusalem, where they will be killed and then resurrected and return breathing fire.

I have never heard of any such thing before and yet our Bishop, who taught the class, told my daughter that it's in the Scriptures but he couldn't remember where and to search for it on the church website. I tried doing that when we got home but couldn't find anything on the subject.

Has anyone else ever been taught this? I am totally confused.

Revelation speaks of how two will prophesy in Jerusalem and will be killed.

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The concept of "fire coming out of their mouth" is a metaphor. It means they will speak via the power of the priesthood, and plagues/calamities/destruction shall fall upon the wicked who oppose them.

Personally, I am not convinced that these will be apostles of the Church. There is no reason to believe a couple 80 year old Brethren are going to be rigorous enough to deal such a prophecy in Jerusalem for 3 /12 years. However, it is very likely that it will be a couple high priests/elders who are called to the task. Then again, it is just as likely that the Lord will call forth a couple of prophets from among the Jews, actually separate from the Church!

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Take a look at D&C 77: 15

"Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?

A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers."

So two Prophets it is! Who those two prophets are would be pure speculation on my part.

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I taught this lesson to the same age group ... that passage was not in the lesson ... it was strictly the teachings the Savior did about His 2nd coming ... and the lesson was heavy on the side that was stated before ... stand in holy places and be not moved and then you don't have to worry about the signs but only be aware of them. This is the reason we are told over and over as teachers in the church to follow the lesson manual and add nothing else.

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