Inactive member in polygamous relationship


fate
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Okay new thought -- I know some groups in Utah have been trying to legalize it, however I'd like to attack the laws in some of these states that have already legalized Gay Marriage -- since it seems like a stepping stone.

How would the church change it if was legal? I know you probably don't have an answer to this ...

Now I'm just back to square 1.

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Would the church even be supportive of changes to polygamy laws? There was quite a bit of commotion over Prop 8, which I know is completely different, but I just feel like I've stopped myself because of 1) personal greed and 2) unfair laws of the land.

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Please don't give me any further advice -- you clearly don't know what you're talking about and you're just going to frustrate me further.

I'm on these forums because I'm looking for a reasonable solution. Please keep it a reasonable argument.

Where "reasonable" means "agreeing with me".

Your Joseph Smith quote is poorly attested with no other sources to back up the claim -- in short, baloney.

Your use of this quote and your continued attempts to justify your adultery demonstrate that you wish to continue living in a repulsive, sinful lifestyle and yet enjoy the blessings of heaven. You cannot. Wickedness never was happiness. You cannot be saved in sin. Your only hope is to abandon your sin and seek forgiveness.

If you are unwilling to conform your life to God's requirements, you cannot receive God's blessings. That's the bottom line.

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Who knows? And until it is proposed, we won't know.

Even if it was legal in one state, the church would probably not support it or encourage its practice until it could be legal in all 50 states and in many other countries.

So, it would be a long shot and a long road.

And, most importantly, it would be revealed through the Lord's Prophet that it would be reinstated.

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How would the church change it if was legal? I know you probably don't have an answer to this ...

Now I'm just back to square 1.

Well, in South Africa it is legal and the Church even has a temple however, plural marriages over there aren't approved by the Church.

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Guest saintish

Your Joseph Smith quote is poorly attested with no other sources to back up the claim -- in short, baloney.

whether or not fate is using it to justify his lifestyle, is this not a real quote? I have heard it several times. I would be very interested to find out if it is fake. all i can find is D&C 76:89 where the lord says the telestial glory surpasses all understanding.
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whether or not fate is using it to justify his lifestyle, is this not a real quote? I have heard it several times. I would be very interested to find out if it is fake. all i can find is D&C 76:89 where the lord says the telestial glory surpasses all understanding.

Well Vort seems to believe that one person saying something that another person said is a lie. I've read that quote before and also read D&C 76 and have read enough about Joseph Smith to know that the quote is "most likely" true, that doesn't mean it is, but nonetheless it wouldn't be called a Telestial "Glory" if it was burning and hellfire. I believe the general Christian belief of hell is either one of two places: 1) the place where Satan and his angels are at, or 2) spiritual prison aka outer darkness, where we are tormented, I'd imagine by the reflection of our life choices (not a physical torment or torture).

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Well Vort seems to believe that one person saying something that another person said is a lie. I've read that quote before and also read D&C 76 and have read enough about Joseph Smith to know that the quote is "most likely" true, that doesn't mean it is, but nonetheless it wouldn't be called a Telestial "Glory" if it was burning and hellfire. I believe the general Christian belief of hell is either one of two places: 1) the place where Satan and his angels are at, or 2) spiritual prison aka outer darkness, where we are tormented, I'd imagine by the reflection of our life choices (not a physical torment or torture).

No, Vort wants you use actual quotes and not "most likely" ones. I would like you to do listen to what you're being told without being defensive. Did you really believe that active members of the church were going to pat you on the back and say "good for you"???

I have never in my years here at lds.net read through a thread that has left me shaking my head so much.

Fate, you're not here to hear truth. You're here to get justification for what you want to happen. Sorry...you're not going to get anyone here who understands the gospel, the churches stance on polygamy, or adultery to agree with any of your justifications for living an adulterous life. at this point in your wife would most likely be excommunicated also.

I'm actually appalled that your wife thought she could give another "woman" as a gift.

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whether or not fate is using it to justify his lifestyle, is this not a real quote? I have heard it several times. I would be very interested to find out if it is fake. all i can find is D&C 76:89 where the lord says the telestial glory surpasses all understanding.

It's inconclusive. Basically, we "don't know". It is a third hand account, I wouldn't dismiss it as boloney though.

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You're all right, I doubt anyone would ever see things the way I see things, that's why I stopped going to church. I analyze scripture and base my life off core doctrine, not hasty interpretations. Sure I made a mistake, so I'm not perfect, but in analyzing core doctrine the only real fault here is not being "legally" married to her.

I don't think you really understand the term "core doctrine."

Core doctrine is we must repent or end up cast off from God eternally. Core doctrine requires us to follow the living prophets and interpret the scriptures in the way the Lord teaches us through the living prophets.

Personal interpretation of scripture is what the Pharisees did in rejecting Christ. Jesus said they were straining at gnats and swallowing camels. Guess what? You have swallowed a camel, and now are straining to rephrase it as a "mistake." By the way, a mistake is when you accidentally drop something. What you have done is a bad/evil choice. It was done intentionally, and now you are seeking to use scripture to justify yourself, or at least reduce the burden of guilt.

Try reading Alma 36. Such is what happens to those who willfully sin against the truth until they humbly submit and fully repent. You just are not there, because you are seeking to justify or minimize your sins. Anytime we sin, we are cast off from God's presence. Only full and sincere repentance can bring us back into His presence. That is core doctrine. For those who forever refuse to repent, they become sons of perdition. For those who wait until the last minute to repent, they are telestial beings who Christ is barely able to save from eternal damnation and hellfire.

The Lord, through his prophet, is the only one who can condone polygamy of any kind. You know the correct doctrine on this, even if you choose to justify something else instead. Otherwise, why come to this site and try to explain your sins by reinterpreting scripture? You are hoping we'll give you the okay.

Well, here's your okay. Go ahead and keep living as you are. You will not only condemn yourself, but also both women, and possibly your children to an eternity in the Telestial Kingdom. True love would mean you would sacrifice temporary happiness for eternal gains. But that is not what you are demonstrating here. So, repent if you are wise. Continue doing what you are doing if you wish to be a fool.

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whether or not fate is using it to justify his lifestyle, is this not a real quote? I have heard it several times. I would be very interested to find out if it is fake. all i can find is D&C 76:89 where the lord says the telestial glory surpasses all understanding.

No, it is not a "real quote". Brother Charles Walker wrote in his journal that he heard Wilford Woodruff claim that he once heard Joseph say this. That is not a quote from Joseph Smith. It is not even a report from someone who thought he heard Joseph Smith say that. Rather, it is a third-hand account of someone who says he heard someone else say that he once heard Joseph Smith say that.

In short: baloney.

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whether or not fate is using it to justify his lifestyle, is this not a real quote? I have heard it several times. I would be very interested to find out if it is fake. all i can find is D&C 76:89 where the lord says the telestial glory surpasses all understanding.

Yes, the Telestial glory is a wonderful place and does surpass all glory. It is the getting there that such people ignore. Telestial people must fully repent of their sins, otherwise they will be cast out into Outer Darkness. That is the sole difference between an adulterer/murderer and Satan. One chooses to finally repent, while the other refuses.

Alma 36 shows us what happens to a person in such a state of sin. If someone wishes to spend time in the Spirit Prison hell, suffering even as Jesus suffered (D&C 19), that is his choice. But he will suffer until he fully is humbled and repents. For some, that can take a Millennium. Alma was lucky it only took him 3 days. Yet it was still 3 days of intense and unmitigated pain and horror for him. Sadly, fate is not only condemning himself to this fate, but also the two women he claims to love, and perhaps his children as well. That is not love. That is selfishness. Oh, and then they will be separated for the eternities in the Telestial Kingdom, for God will not allow such intimate and sinful relationships in that kingdom.

So, you repent now and perhaps gain exaltation with your wife, and allowing the girlfriend to possibly have the same blessing with another man, or you condemn all to Spirit Prison hell and to the Telestial Kingdom, where it is wonderful, but nothing in comparison to exaltation.

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Well Vort seems to believe that one person saying something that another person said is a lie.

Perhaps Vort simply understands that a single third-hand attestation really is not worth anything. I have family members whom I know and trust who have sworn they heard me say thus-and-such, when in reality I said no such thing. If they had told you that Vort had said thus-and-such, would you then assume that you had it on gospel authority that I had actually said that?

Walker wrote that he heard Woodruff claim to have once heard Joseph say this. Amazing that we have no first-hand account of Joseph saying any such thing, nor any second-hand account of anyone saying that Joseph said it. We don't even have any other third-hand account of someone saying he heard someone say that Joseph said this. Just this one account, as far as I know.

Given the implications of such a doctrine, if it had been taught then there surely would have been many more records of it. Instead, there is one unconfirmed, unattested, third-hand report. That simply does not qualify as a believable account.

I've read that quote before and also read D&C 76 and have read enough about Joseph Smith to know that the quote is "most likely" true

Fate, given your amazing lack of understanding of the most basic elements of the gospel, your opinion about this quote is pretty much irrelevant. The quote is most likely spurious.

that doesn't mean it is, but nonetheless it wouldn't be called a Telestial "Glory" if it was burning and hellfire.

Agreed. But that does not imply what you seem to suggest it does.

"Not being burning and hellfire" ≠ "Being such a great place that people would happily commit suicide just to get there"

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Please don't give me any further advice -- you clearly don't know what you're talking about and you're just going to frustrate me further.

I'm on these forums because I'm looking for a reasonable solution. Please keep it a reasonable argument.

I fear there is no "reasonable solution" that will give you everything you want. You want two things that are mutually incompatible. The Church's position is that, per Jacob 2:27-30, polygamy is a no-no unless the Lord specifically authorizes otherwise. Its policies reinforce that position, to the point that I believe new converts are required to commit to a monogamous lifestyle even in countries where polygamy is legal (e.g., some areas of the African continent).

If the LDS Church's current stance is wrong, then it's because the leadership has erred. Your choice, then, is either to a) sincerely and prayerfully attempt to reconcile yourself to the leadership's position, b) conform your lifestyle to the leadership's teachings while quietly praying for change; or c) backtrack through the LDS chain of priesthood authority and try to find out i) where the LDS went wrong and ii) if there's some offshoot group that you believe held onto the truth.

Ultimately, that's the choice you face. The Church is what it is. Given its current teachings and policies, it is unlikely to change anytime soon and your chances for obtaining some kind of "special dispensation" from the First Presidency are pretty much nil.

I wish you the best as you try to sort this out. It's a difficult position you're in, and I truly feel for you. I can only suggest you follow God the best way you know how and keep an open mind.

[Oh, and--being an active Mormon--might I humbly suggest option a)? :D]

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Well, first things first, you're not polygamous. You're polyamorous, which is much more socially acceptable. Welcome to the alternative-lifestyles movement!

Second, you're not looking at 'core doctrine'. You're looking at out-of-date Church policies which have been explicitly overruled by more recent policy.

Third, if you want to cling to superseded scripture, I suppose I can't stop you. But you aren't allowed to complain if someone decides to implement the core doctrinal penalty for adultery -- death by stoning is way traditional, you know.

As society changes, God changes the rules we're expected to live by. And that's certainly lucky for you.

Fourth, I must ask -- seriously?

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Hey, fate. I know that this really has to be difficult and I'm really sorry. I had a long way to climb when I came back to the church too. I had to completely change my attitude about all gospel doctrines that I disagreed with and I started small and began to slowly accept and embrace the most basic fundamentals of the gospel. Concentrating on these teeny tiny details will slow you down and stop you from moving forward.

You need to understand that "a man cannot serve two masters". You cannot be of the world and of the church of our lord. I just started reading the book of mormon and I came across this verse in 1 Nephi Chapter 14:

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."

I think that this is what the verse is talking about. You really need to decide which is more important... Damnation or exaltation.

p.s. I have to say that the concept of eternal life is far from selfish because we are all resurrected whether we like it or not. We all have bodies, thus we are all apart of the plan of salvation and we will be resurrected and judged according to the deeds of the life that we live here.

p.p.s fate, living the gospel after being away from it has brought me such overwhelming happiness. I can't believe that I lived away from it so long. I wish you the best and pray hard and with complete openness of heart.

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