What is "given"? D&C 82:3

[Seminarysnoozer]

What exactly is “given”?

In D&C 82 (see below) it seems to be talking about just knowledge or the gospel. President Kimball (see below) seems to expand that to talents and time and abilities. Luke 10 (see below), parable of the unjust steward, seems to extend that to money or things of this world (or mammon). So, what exactly is “given”? In other words, what are the things of this world that we have that we didn’t have before, thus, “given” to us in this life?

How a person answers that question is a statement also of how much they believe is carried through from the previous life. For example, if a person is a great speaker or jovial or kind or driven or intelligent etc., is that something ‘given’ or is that just their personality that was carried through from their spiritual self? If it is their spiritual self, then it is not ‘given’ as in this life’s stewardship, therefore, not required of us to ‘give back’ any of that, it was already ours.

We had a talk on gratitude the other day in Sacrament meeting and the message was to be grateful for all that we are given in this life. To do that one needs to know what is ‘given’. If we say “everything” is given, which I think is the ‘knee-jerk’ response to that …. Think about that a second. If we think “everything” is given, then that would include traits and skills and personality. I think most believe, at least to some degree, that ‘who-they-are’ is how they act and interact here, in other words those features are not “given” they come naturally to that person.

We have to be careful how we view this because if one says, “I’m intelligent because that is my spirit coming through, my spirit is this intelligent” then;

1.) that person isn’t thankful for that trait as a ‘given’ trait and

2.) they would not see that trait as something from which ‘much is

required’ back. (because it wasn't "given" it was just carried through

to this life)

If we are asked to be thankful for everything we are given then that would also include our personalities, our likes and dislikes, our individual mannerisms etc, things we may not have had before.

D&C 82:3 “ 3For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.”

President Spencer W. Kimball said: “God has endowed us with talents and time, with latent abilities and with opportunities to use and develop them in his service. He therefore expects much of us, his privileged children” (The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 100).

Luke 12: “ 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

Luke 10: “10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?”

Also, parable of the 10 talents and unjust steward.

[sixpacktr]

My own personal belief is that the 'much is given' part of that verse refers to 1) our monetary blessings, 2) our spiritual blessings, and 3) our inherent blessings, or those talents we either have or develop. We are under covenant to give our all to the Kingdom of God and build it up upon the earth. If we believe that we 'have ours' and the rest of the world had better get by on 'theirs' then we will be held accountable. If, however, we share our money (not just our tithes, which is a commandment, but our offerings, which are not dictated as much) to build others up, if we do not still our voice when we have an opportunity to share the gospel (and truly, what else in this life truly matters? Without it, we don't even have our families beyond this mortal existence), if we share whatever talents we have to build other up and bring them to Christ, then we can expect to be saved in the CK with our HF and Christ. If, however, we choose to not share those things, then the day will come, sooner or later, when we will be held accountable, much like the unwise steward in the parable of the talents, and have to give a reckoning of why we felt what we had was only for us. So when we simply go to church but refuse to serve (or perhaps even worse, accept a call and then don't do it), fail to pay a generous offering (according to our circumstances, no one elses. Remember the widow's mite), fail to help others come unto Christ and be perfected in Him, we are not using that with which we have been blessed wisely, and the Lord will require it of us.

[Seminarysnoozer]

My own personal belief is that the 'much is given' part of that verse refers to 1) our monetary blessings, 2) our spiritual blessings, and 3) our inherent blessings, or those talents we either have or develop. We are under covenant to give our all to the Kingdom of God and build it up upon the earth.

So, it sounds like you are saying everything about us is "given" in this life. There is nothing carried over from our previous existence that was just ours, in terms of our personality, traits or abilities? How do you know what is you, as you were before, versus something "given"?

If one says that they were given before this life began then the poor person born with Trisomy 21 is "required" to give based on all those "given" abilities and "inherent blessings" before this life even though they are not expressed here because of a broken body? I don't think so.

It might be better to act as if everything is "given" in this life, because we don't know ... is what I am getting at. But it seems that some would like to thing of themselves that their "given" talent is part of how they were before, that this life is a direct reflection of their traits before, such as intelligence, ability to play the piano, play baseball, speak foreign languages, paint, be a good mom, etc. Which one of those are "given" in this life? Is it really "given" or just allowed to continue through?

The story of the 10 talents is one of the servants using their "own" talents, or talents borrowed from the master for a short period of time?

[Matthew0059]

Seminary, you're on the right track. I don't think it matters at all whether our spiritual gifts are "inherent" (with us when we were born into this mortal realm) or "given" to us in this life- the onus on every person who has been given a spiritual gift is that he use it in the service of GOD and others, and to provide for himself and his family.

This principle applies to temporal gifts as well. Temporal ammenities are all on loan from FATHER, and HE gives them to us with the strict command that we should seek for HIS kingdom first, and then use our wealth for the good of our neighbors (see King Benjamin's famous address).

As for learning which gifts are inherent vs. given (as defined above), Patriarchal blessings are very handy.

[lost123]

It is important to understand that in the parable of the Talents that Talents is not referring to talents (as far as what we are naturally blessed with). Talents in this parable refers to money. The one that had more Talents (money) went out and learned how to double it as did the next steward. The one that had 1 went and buried it and did not invest it to make more. What is the parable? Talents in this parable refer to "gifts" given from the Lord - things we are given that we may not be good at at all but we are required to learn them and to multiply them and to be wise stewards of it. This lesson was in a recent Gospel Doctrine lesson from this year. Gifts of the Spirit (as found in the Doctrine and Covenants) are some of them (i.e. Gift of Tongues, Gifts of the Spirit, Faith, etc.). Others, Bruce R. McConkie says, are listening, bearing one anothers burdens, Gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood, etc.

It is important to know that the gifts are not something we are necessarily good at BUT we are expected to develop those gifts and to multiply them. That is the wise steward.

I hope this helps.

[pam]

Since I'm a collector of quotes let me throw these out concerning this particular scriptural verse:

Neal A. Maxwell

Of the many restored truths, God has surely given us enough and to spare. Soberingly, however, we have been told that “unto whom much is given much is required” (D&C 82:3). I hope we feel the cutting edge of the word required. It is used instead of the milder expected. Neither does the Lord say, “It would be nice if …” The word is required, bringing us back again to the need for submissiveness in discipleship. (“Becoming a Disciple,” Ensign, June 1996, 15)

Gordon B. Hinckley

We have laid upon us as a people a greater charge, a greater responsibility than any other people have ever had in the history of the world. We are responsible for the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ to all who have lived upon the earth, to all who now live upon the earth, and to all who will yet live upon the earth. No other people have had so great a responsibility as that. God bless the faithful Latter-day Saints who carry in their hearts the love and respect of the great doctrine of the eternity of the family, and the tremendous doctrine of vicarious work for the dead. (Latter-day Commentary on the New Testament: The Four Gospels, by Pinegar, Bassett, and Earl, p. 238)

Sheri L. Dew

At times the demands of discipleship are heavy. But shouldn’t we expect the journey towards eternal glory to stretch us? We sometimes rationalize our preoccupation with this world and our casual attempts to grow spiritually by trying to console each other with the notion that living the gospel really shouldn’t require all that much of us. The Lord’s standard of behavior will always be more demanding than the world’s, but then the Lord’s rewards are infinitely more glorious—including true joy, peace, and salvation. (“We Are Women of God,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, 98)

Bruce R. McConkie

Now I think it is perfectly clear that the Lord expects far more of us than we sometimes render in response. We are not as other men. We are the saints of God and have the revelations of heaven. Where much is given much is expected. We are to put first in our lives the things of his kingdom.

We are commanded to live in harmony with the Lord’s laws, to keep all his commandments, to sacrifice all things if need be for his name’s sake, to conform to the terms and conditions of the law of consecration.

We have made covenants so to do—solemn, sacred, holy covenants, pledging ourselves before gods and angels.

We are under covenant to live the law of obedience.

We are under covenant to live the law of sacrifice.

We are under covenant to live the law of consecration.

With this in mind, hear this word from the Lord: “If you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.” (D&C 78:7.) (Bruce R. McConkie, “Obedience, Consecration, and Sacrifice,” Ensign, May 1975, 51)

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is important to understand that in the parable of the Talents that Talents is not referring to talents (as far as what we are naturally blessed with). Talents in this parable refers to money. The one that had more Talents (money) went out and learned how to double it as did the next steward. The one that had 1 went and buried it and did not invest it to make more. What is the parable? Talents in this parable refer to "gifts" given from the Lord - things we are given that we may not be good at at all but we are required to learn them and to multiply them and to be wise stewards of it. This lesson was in a recent Gospel Doctrine lesson from this year. Gifts of the Spirit (as found in the Doctrine and Covenants) are some of them (i.e. Gift of Tongues, Gifts of the Spirit, Faith, etc.). Others, Bruce R. McConkie says, are listening, bearing one anothers burdens, Gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood, etc.

It is important to know that the gifts are not something we are necessarily good at BUT we are expected to develop those gifts and to multiply them. That is the wise steward.

I hope this helps.

I think most realize that a talent refers to money (I think they do) but one thing they may not realize is that one talent is about $380,000 our money ... just to put some perspective on that. Of course this is a parable and words represent other things, just like "seeds" might refer to people or the gospel etc. In that parable, talent does not just refer to money.

This is an interesting response because this view is seeming to say that there are some things, at least, that are carried through from the previous life. If that is the case, then those things are not counted towards 'where much is given, much is required'. This statement is seemingly stating that only things that we are partially good at to begin with are the things for which 'much is required', not the things that we are 'naturally' good at.

So, if I am 'naturally' a good athlete and make millions playing a particular sport, not much is required of me from that 'natural ability' or if I am 'naturally' an intelligent person and make millions because of this 'natural ability' not much is required from that ability? If I carry the love and ability for music, not much is required of me, in terms of that ability?

So how can we tell which ones where 'much is required' versus others that we don't need to 'pay back' in that way? Or, is everything in this life "given"?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary, you're on the right track. I don't think it matters at all whether our spiritual gifts are "inherent" (with us when we were born into this mortal realm) or "given" to us in this life- the onus on every person who has been given a spiritual gift is that he use it in the service of GOD and others, and to provide for himself and his family.

This principle applies to temporal gifts as well. Temporal ammenities are all on loan from FATHER, and HE gives them to us with the strict command that we should seek for HIS kingdom first, and then use our wealth for the good of our neighbors (see King Benjamin's famous address).

As for learning which gifts are inherent vs. given (as defined above), Patriarchal blessings are very handy.

I think that many "temporal amenities" (I like that description, by the way) are considered by many to be who they really are. In other words, people think to themselves, 'I am intelligent' therefore my spirit was intelligent before this life. Or, 'I have a love for sports' therefore my spirit must have loved those type of challenges before this life. Or, 'I have a mind for science' therefore I must have had that propensity before this life. ... and not that is was given or part of our "temporal amenities" on loan from God.

For me, I find nothing in my blessing and others that I have read that outlines what is inherent versus given in the Patriarchal blessing unless wherever it reads "you have been blessed with..." should be interpreted as "you have been given ....". This raises another way of looking at this, should everything we consider to be a blessing in this life be looked at as something given, something 'on loan'?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Since I'm a collector of quotes let me throw these out concerning this particular scriptural verse:

Thanks Pam. I think those quotes tell us that we should be willing to give everything. Even then, I think how one views this subject is a potential attitude changer in terms of the pride that is associated with something thinking that if they have a lot here, somehow they were the ones with a lot before this life began (which may be true for some but not all). As opposed to realizing that pretty much everything we have here, whether it is athletic prowess, intellectual prowess, artistic prowess, social prowess etc. is given and 'on loan' temporally, and not a reflection of our spiritual self any more than one would consider someone with trisomy 18 to be a physical representation of their spiritual self.

My personal view in this matter is that the traits that we carry with us from the previous life are things like, whether a person is valiant or not, how in tune to the spirit one is, whether a person is self sacrificing or not, whether a person can delay gratification or not ... all the things that we are sent here to reveal, our true natures. What we did not carry through, at least seems less likely, is whether we love chocolate or not, whether we love a good joke or not, whether we like sports or science, whether we can speak in front of large groups or not, whether we have an ease with algebra or not, whether we can create a beautiful painting or not, whether we are good at team sports or not, etc.

With those "given" temporary traits that are on loan for a short period of time, God is looking at whether we keep them for ourselves or whether we share them and expand them. If one claims them as their own, then by definition they are not sharing them ... which is part of the test. If one says "I am a great artist" then they would be claiming it for themselves, as opposed to saying "I have been blessed temporarily with this talent". ... it is all in the attitude. ... like the unjust steward wanting to take it for himself when it was never his in the first place.

[sixpacktr]

I believe that we do come here with certain talents we already have developed in the eons before we came to this earth to be tested. Those would be the 'inherent' talents I mentioned before. Those of us that are parents see that clearly: all are raised the same way (for the most part) and yet each child is as different from the other as apples and oranges. One is good at sports, the other can't walk and chew gum at the same time; while the one can play Mozart at 10 flawlessly, and the other messes up Chopsticks.

I think that King Benjamin sheds a lot of light on this type of question: what is really ours? Where do I end and God begins, when it comes to what makes 'us'.

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

(Mosiah2:20 - 25)

King Benjamin has it right (of course, he was a prophet). Everything we have we have because of our Heavenly Father. Everything we are, or will ever be, is because of Him and His plan of salvation. He lends us breath daily. Yes, we developed talents before we came here that just shine thru no matter what, but this earth life is a time for us to 'prepare to meet God' (Alma 5, Alma 12, Alma 34). And He gives us aid in doing that preparation.

As we 'seek [after] the best gifts' (D&C 46) we learn that that gifts the are to be most prized all bring others unto Christ. Now, that doesn't mean that the other talents we have are less important. All talents, no matter what they are, can do that, and should be used as such. But the abilty to KNOW that Christ is who is said He is, or to heal, or speak in tongues, etc., etc., are faith promoting experiences. And those gifts, I believe, all come from God. We can increase our faith to use them and gain experience with them, but they originate from the perfect Man, even our Heavenly Father.

As we give our all back to our Heavenly Father, he in turn will give us all He has. So even if we have developed things we brought here with us, in essence they belong to Him, and we are to use them for His glory and to bring our brothers and sisters back to Him.

Just my $0.02...

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that we do come here with certain talents we already have developed in the eons before we came to this earth to be tested. Those would be the 'inherent' talents I mentioned before. Those of us that are parents see that clearly: all are raised the same way (for the most part) and yet each child is as different from the other as apples and oranges. One is good at sports, the other can't walk and chew gum at the same time; while the one can play Mozart at 10 flawlessly, and the other messes up Chopsticks.

Thanks. I have 4 children, I know what you are saying. But, how do you know that those differences are not because of the brain's wiring. The wiring of the brain occurs mostly by the 8th week of gestation. They come out different because of their physical characteristics. Maybe the closest representation we have of this is how different identical twins are. But even then there is some genetic differences that occur after zygote formation that could account for small differences.

There is nothing in our religion that says that we had various talents before we came here, only varied levels of being valiant. That, of course, translates to further development but it doesn't say that it is in a different direction of development.

And, we are in such a fallen state, our talents, if they do shine through would be like comparing professional basketball players skills when they have their legs tied together, arms tied behind their back and blindfolded with anyone else who is tied up in the same way. Can you really see the differences shine through?

[sixpacktr]

I guess my opinions come from some inferences I make from scripture and other talks, and just some pondering I have done over the years. One of my favorite books is Jesus the Christ by Elder Talmage. When I lived overseas many years ago, I read that once a year as something to do while commuting for 3 hours a day on the train. He talks of Christ in the pre-mortal realms as well as His mission here on the earth. My personal opinion is that Christ developed the talents he needed while in His premortal life so that he could perform His mission here on earth. If he had not developed the talent to obey, or the talent of trusting God, etc., but was simply given those by Heavenly Father so that He could perform His work, then Satan would have opportunity to cry 'foul', in that Christ was given everything and hadn't developed it and that God had therefore, by default, nullified His own plan by rigging it and taking Christ's agency away (by giving him an abundance of the 'obedience talent', what trial or development is there then by Him? Or perhaps more to the point, He couldn't disobey, and therefore frustrates the Plan because He Himself doesn't have the ability to disobey). The same goes If you remember the story of Job, who was called a 'perfect man', Satan kept coming back with more challenges, saying that God protected Job too much, and that was why he (Job) loved Him (God).

Taking into account that 1) this life is a time for us to develop the God-like attributes necessary to return and live with Him, and 2) that someday we will, thru perserverance and reliance upon Christ, become like Him in all ways (and thus, have all talents/skills necessary to teach our own children and send them down to earths to prove themselves), I believe that we develop as much as we can in each stage, developing whatever talents we can to move us back towards Him. Once it was apparent that growth was no longer possible without being tested, we were sent here. Once it is apparent we have learned all we can in this life, that we either cannot progress any further or choose not to, then we move to the next step. Even then, we still have the opportunity to repent and become like our Heavenly Father (and, I'd dare say, develop talents along the way, though it will be harder without our body), until we become like Him thru faithful obedience and righteous desires.

For those reasons I believe what I do regarding talents, progress, and the things I've said about being given much.

But what do I know? I muddle thru just like everyone else...

[Seminarysnoozer]

I guess my opinions come from some inferences I make from scripture and other talks, and just some pondering I have done over the years. One of my favorite books is Jesus the Christ by Elder Talmage. When I lived overseas many years ago, I read that once a year as something to do while commuting for 3 hours a day on the train. He talks of Christ in the pre-mortal realms as well as His mission here on the earth. My personal opinion is that Christ developed the talents he needed while in His premortal life so that he could perform His mission here on earth. If he had not developed the talent to obey, or the talent of trusting God, etc., but was simply given those by Heavenly Father so that He could perform His work, then Satan would have opportunity to cry 'foul', in that Christ was given everything and hadn't developed it and that God had therefore, by default, nullified His own plan by rigging it and taking Christ's agency away (by giving him an abundance of the 'obedience talent', what trial or development is there then by Him? Or perhaps more to the point, He couldn't disobey, and therefore frustrates the Plan because He Himself doesn't have the ability to disobey). The same goes If you remember the story of Job, who was called a 'perfect man', Satan kept coming back with more challenges, saying that God protected Job too much, and that was why he (Job) loved Him (God).

Taking into account that 1) this life is a time for us to develop the God-like attributes necessary to return and live with Him, and 2) that someday we will, thru perserverance and reliance upon Christ, become like Him in all ways (and thus, have all talents/skills necessary to teach our own children and send them down to earths to prove themselves), I believe that we develop as much as we can in each stage, developing whatever talents we can to move us back towards Him. Once it was apparent that growth was no longer possible without being tested, we were sent here. Once it is apparent we have learned all we can in this life, that we either cannot progress any further or choose not to, then we move to the next step. Even then, we still have the opportunity to repent and become like our Heavenly Father (and, I'd dare say, develop talents along the way, though it will be harder without our body), until we become like Him thru faithful obedience and righteous desires.

For those reasons I believe what I do regarding talents, progress, and the things I've said about being given much.

But what do I know? I muddle thru just like everyone else...

You can see where my question comes from then. It isn't very clear. If it was exactly as we were before then we would face the same challenges we do here, there. To create this temporary, probationary state there had to be temporary, probationary factors put into the equation. It is kind of like when you take a test and it says "If Jane and Elaine traveled in a train going 60 mph for two hours and Jane traveled an additional 20 minutes, what is there combined travel distance?" ... when you take the test you realize there is no actual people named Jane and Elaine and there is no actual train, it is just set up for the test.

That "set up" is what is "given", they are temporary conditions so that we can be put into a testing situation. They are specific to each of us, I believe, to be tested in certain areas. Whereas there may be other areas of our lives that are just who we are and God can make the veil thin enough that they come out from time to time such as remembering knowledge learned before. Some people, I think, start to believe that the "set up" is who they really are, as if they had those traits before this life. How would one know, which are which?

As far as Christ goes, that is a different situation than what we find ourselves in, He was the Only Begotten. That must make the veil pretty thin and give Him the physical power to complete His mission. As He pointed out to His disciples, the spirit is willing but the body is weak (for all of us except Him).

[lost123]

I think most realize that a talent refers to money (I think they do) but one thing they may not realize is that one talent is about $380,000 our money ... just to put some perspective on that. Of course this is a parable and words represent other things, just like "seeds" might refer to people or the gospel etc. In that parable, talent does not just refer to money.

This is an interesting response because this view is seeming to say that there are some things, at least, that are carried through from the previous life. If that is the case, then those things are not counted towards 'where much is given, much is required'. This statement is seemingly stating that only things that we are partially good at to begin with are the things for which 'much is required', not the things that we are 'naturally' good at.

So, if I am 'naturally' a good athlete and make millions playing a particular sport, not much is required of me from that 'natural ability' or if I am 'naturally' an intelligent person and make millions because of this 'natural ability' not much is required from that ability? If I carry the love and ability for music, not much is required of me, in terms of that ability?

So how can we tell which ones where 'much is required' versus others that we don't need to 'pay back' in that way? Or, is everything in this life "given"?

Talents was referring to money in this parable which is important to visualize the parable correctly. But in teaching how it relates to the gospel, the Lord was telling his apostles that the Talents are symbolic for "gifts" given of God. AGAIN...we might not be good at them but we are expected to develop and invest in them. Or we may be good at them and we are still required to develop them and magnify them for the Lord's purposes. To be clear, it does not matter if we came with them in our spirits or not. All of God's purposes are to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". If we invest all our time and focus on things that do not bring about God's purposes then I guess it is safe to say those are not gifts but distractions.

In the parable it refers to "gifts" and does not state whether or not we are good at it. Therefore I think that the wise steward takes all gifts (whether they are good at it or not) and magnifies it (invests it as you would money in the parable so that you can multiply it for the purposes of God). (Money is only symbolic).

"This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." "Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy." "Lose yourself in the Lord's purposes and you will find yourself." (not directly quoted - look up scriptural references...but you get the gist).

If we know some things come naturally to us and we do nothing with it I think it would be safe to say we are slothful servants. If we know that some things don't come easily or naturally to us and don't develop them then we are still slothful servants. In the parable the Lord gave different amounts to different people. I think the key is that we use all at our disposal (whether or not we are good at it) to magnify the Lord's purposes. This is fulfilling the measure of our creation. This is ultimate joy. This is being obedient. This is being a wise servant. The wise servant seeks out to invest their gifts so it benefits the Lord's purposes...not their own. Then if we are "faithful over a few things" he will "make us ruler over many things".

In the gospel we are all given much so every member of the church has a HUGE responsibility: WHERE MUCH IS GIVEN, MUCH IS REQUIRED. This again refers to all things (gifts) whether we are naturally good at them or not. It is our faithfulness in magnifying these "gifts" that matters. Remember ALL that we have (whether we were pre-disposed to them through our pre-earth life spirits or not) are given of God. We are to develop all gifts.

Boy this is sounding trivial. LOL. I think it is safest to say that we just need to get out there and WORK. :)

Edited July 6, 2011 by lost123
typos

[Seminarysnoozer]

Boy this is sounding trivial. LOL. I think it is safest to say that we just need to get out there and WORK. :)

I think if something in the Forum sounds trivial, then don't participate in the discussion. Obviously, what is seemingly important to some may not be to others, there are many threads that I don't participate in because I don't have anything to add to the discussion.

In my early posts I think I explained that I would imagine most would say "everything" is given and so that would include all that we have. I anticipated what you just wrote and explained that to most that would be the end of the discussion. What I am proposing here, to look deeper into that statement is the fact that if one says they are "given" that means that they were not there before (at least at some point), in other words, they are not inherited traits of the spirit being, or our eternal intelligence. And if they are given here, in this life, then they are temporary which would fit with the description of being "stewards" and not owners.

The discussion wasn't really about what we do with "given" talents because that is obvious and not really up for discussion as you are trying to say, "sounding trivial" but rather this was an attempt to discuss if there can be any separation of the things that were "given" in this life as temporary stewardships and not a 'carried over' trait.

If it is unknown and one just approaches it as if everything is a gift, that is a valid response that I also already proposed, which I agree is probably the best way to approach it and leave it as an unknown, trivial thing. But here is the thing about that, if one says everything is a gift then in no way should one claim that their current personality is somehow a reflection of how they were in the previous life. Those aspects of a person's being, if they say it is just how they are and not a "gift", in other words, not a "stewardship" then that attitude would take away from their gratitude towards all things given and it would also be viewed as a part of their being in which there is no "pay back".

If it is truly trivial, then the statement should be "all is required of everyone" not "where much is given much is required". If you think there is no difference between those two statements then I think "where much is given" is misleading.

[JudoMinja]

If it is truly trivial, then the statement should be "all is required of everyone" not "where much is given much is required". If you think there is no difference between those two statements then I think "where much is given" is misleading.

Actually, I think both statements are applicable. We are all expected to give our all, but we are not all given the same amount, so our all is going to be different. (Hope that made sense.) The earth itself is an example of uneven distribution of "wealth" (be that fertility, money, health, talents, gifts, whatever). In this life, on this earth, nothing is distributed evenly. Some have more and some have less. Certain environments are very rich and fertile, while others are barren. However, this unequal distribution allows for a growth of variety and a balance has formed with fertile grounds feeding into the unfertile and changes occuring over time that slowly alters the landscape and shifts the distribution around.

"Where much is given much is required" because those who are rich in talents or knowledge or monetary wealth are required to do more with it. When we can expand on what we have been given and use our increase to help others who have less, I believe we are living up to this "requirement". All IS required of everyone, but "where much is given much is required" is a statement that identifies that all things will be unevenly distributed and those who have more have a higher responsibility to be proper stewards of their "wealth". It is a statement that shows that the "rich" cannot just give the same amount as their less wealthy peers and expect to "get by". MORE is required of those who are given more.

This lack of an even distribution is what allows us to learn the many lessons we need to learn of charity, humility, responsibility, service, etc, etc that we could not learn if we were all given the same. While we are all held individually accountable, we can see that reaching the goal of heaven is a team effort. We must use our strengths to help those who are weak in those areas, and rely on the strengths of others to help us in our areas of weakness. I believe this helps us draw closer to the Savior, as we come to better understand that we cannot get very far in this life if we try to do everything entirely on our own. We need help and support from others, just as we need to rely on the help of the Lord.

And whether or not we bring anything from the preexistance with us, EVERYTHING has been given to us. Heavenly Father is the creator of all things, including our spirits, so whatever we had in the preexistance was also given to us. Nothing we have, even our personalities, is something we can truly call our "own". It was all given to us. Does that take away our individuality, our uniqueness, our self? I don't think so, because with everything we've been given we also have the ability to choose what we will do with it. How and what we choose, based on what we've been given, what to do with what we've been given, and how to achieve even more, is what makes us truly unique and carves out our individuality.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Actually, I think both statements are applicable. We are all expected to give our all, but we are not all given the same amount, so our all is going to be different. (Hope that made sense.) The earth itself is an example of uneven distribution of "wealth" (be that fertility, money, health, talents, gifts, whatever). In this life, on this earth, nothing is distributed evenly. Some have more and some have less. Certain environments are very rich and fertile, while others are barren. However, this unequal distribution allows for a growth of variety and a balance has formed with fertile grounds feeding into the unfertile and changes occuring over time that slowly alters the landscape and shifts the distribution around.

"Where much is given much is required" because those who are rich in talents or knowledge or monetary wealth are required to do more with it. When we can expand on what we have been given and use our increase to help others who have less, I believe we are living up to this "requirement". All IS required of everyone, but "where much is given much is required" is a statement that identifies that all things will be unevenly distributed and those who have more have a higher responsibility to be proper stewards of their "wealth". It is a statement that shows that the "rich" cannot just give the same amount as their less wealthy peers and expect to "get by". MORE is required of those who are given more.

This lack of an even distribution is what allows us to learn the many lessons we need to learn of charity, humility, responsibility, service, etc, etc that we could not learn if we were all given the same. While we are all held individually accountable, we can see that reaching the goal of heaven is a team effort. We must use our strengths to help those who are weak in those areas, and rely on the strengths of others to help us in our areas of weakness. I believe this helps us draw closer to the Savior, as we come to better understand that we cannot get very far in this life if we try to do everything entirely on our own. We need help and support from others, just as we need to rely on the help of the Lord.

And whether or not we bring anything from the preexistance with us, EVERYTHING has been given to us. Heavenly Father is the creator of all things, including our spirits, so whatever we had in the preexistance was also given to us. Nothing we have, even our personalities, is something we can truly call our "own". It was all given to us. Does that take away our individuality, our uniqueness, our self? I don't think so, because with everything we've been given we also have the ability to choose what we will do with it. How and what we choose, based on what we've been given, what to do with what we've been given, and how to achieve even more, is what makes us truly unique and carves out our individuality.

I appreciate your response. I am totally on the same page with you, thank you for saying it clearly. Of what we currently have we need to give our all.

One thing to point out though is that the uneven distribution of what we have here in this life is not in correlation to what we had before. I am trying to point out that there can be and at least will be a specific outlining of what we had before and what we were "given" here in this life at judgment day. Those two lists are not the same, before and during probationary life. The after probationary life list of traits and skills etc. will more closely resemble the before probationary life list with added things we may have learned here. Maybe we can't distinguish the differences here between what is "given" versus the make up of our spiritual self now, but we will at some point be able to see those differences, in my opinion.

The truth of this is when we look at those that are born with disabling diseases such as trisomy 21 etc. Their 'before probationary life' list of traits greatly differs from their 'during probationary life' list of traits. Obviously, those souls were advanced enough to not have to endure the probation time in the same way the rest of us do, or even children who die before the age of accountability. Their lot in life, in fact seems inversely related to where they were before. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the set of talents and potential talents and abilities, skills etc. is given for testing purposes in this life and not a reflection of anything "owned" from the previous life. Of course, the more valiant souls may be put in situations where they can be challenged with greater responsibility for their specific calling and even given traits to accomplish that thing. Moses' spiritual self, for example, possibly doesn't have a problem speaking in front of groups but here it was necessary to carry out God's purpose. Even though we might relate that to his character, that may not really be how his spiritual character would act.

I think the differences in the before and during list of traits is mostly true for everyone save possibly a few such as Jesus and others that we don't know about. The rest of us have fallen to a state that is described by Moses as 'man is nothing' (in comparison to the skills and traits and knowledge and abilities we had before).

[Dove]

Hello, Seminary Snoozer;

This has been an interesting, if somewhat confusing, thread to me. Judominja, thank you for your clarity in your statements..I understood and agree with what you said.

Seminary Snoozer, it sounds like you have been playing a little bit of the devil's advocate maybe to get the discussion going.

I will try to speak clearly about my .02 cent's worth on this topic... I do believe that our choices in the preexistence have a major impact on our life's circumstances here on earth. I believe there is a great correlation between what we chose and the result of where we are here. This does not mean that I ascribe to taking credit for the blessings given us as a result of using our agency wisely. On some levels, this discussion seems to be more about pride (giving ourselves credit for what indeed God has given us) then the development of our talents. As sixpacktr quoted from King Benjamin's speech; basically, without the Savior and His atonement, we are nothing, even less than the dust of the earth, for at least the dust obeys. (cross reference; Helaman 12:7-8)

Reading through this thread leaves me feeling inadequate in many ways. I struggle with profound depression. Oftentimes just having the strength to face another day without deep sadness is a victory for me. Because of this, I live well below my potential. I could do so much more. Interestingly enough, this has taught me a great deal about the grace of Christ, and how I am truly nothing without His strength and support.

I believe the only divine gift we have to truly claim as "our own" is the gift of agency, or will. However, even the ability to have the strength to carry out our righteous desires is a gift of God and the atonement. Other ideas that come to mind concerning this thread is the old "grace vs. works" argument I've heard so many times....where does grace end and our own "works" begin? Can we give ourselves credit for anything we have done?? Do we condemn the paraplegic for not being able to run and win a marathon? Of course not, we might say; but, do we judge others for less apparent/obvious handicaps given them in this life? What I"m trying to say, is "owning" anything other than the glorious, divinely given opportunity of agency we all have equally here on earth enters into the very dangerous ideology of vaunting ourselves above others. I hope this doesn't repeat what has already been said or alluded to. I think this is all about pride, really...Some other feelings that came to me while reading this thread is fear that I wasn't doing enough and guilt. Pride again.. If we don't love and serve God and others out of the pure love and joy of just doing it without thought of reward (or punishment, for that matter) what does it all mean? Is everything here a test meant to try us to see if we will fail (or succeed) , or is it also a loving journey to teach us and help us grow, if we will? I'd like to think it is more the latter~

For what it's worth, I've received a couple of blessings that have made mention of my actions in the preexistence. I was told in one that I had agreed to have diabetes in this life. I'd like to think that we got to discuss with our Heavenly Parent's the best and most desired route back home we'd each individually be given. I've also heard the idea that we may have chosen certain living conditions/impediments/weaknesses to help others in their journey home. I imagine we previously agreed to all the specific trials and opposition that would come our way in this life. While we may not have known the end result like our Parents did, at least we had an idea as to what we would face here and had the choice to experience it or not. This, to me, seems the best and most fair.

Dove

[sixpacktr]

Well put, Dove,

Your last paragraph reminds me of one of the best talks I ever heard on service. When my wife and I and our little family lived in Japan, we attended a ward whose Bishop had a severely handicapped girl in her tweens. This girl was so handicapped she could do nothing but sit there in her wheelchair and basically drool (not trying to sound dramatic or anything, but that was how severely handicapped she was). Her folks brought her to church every week, and we all loved to see her there, because she did smile a lot when she was happy, or talked to.

One Sunday the Bishop got up and talked of service, and serving our fellow man. Then he made reference to his daughter, and told us 'we don't know what we or anyone else agreed to in the premortal life. Perhaps even my daughter agreed to come in the condition she did. And by agreeing to give up a normal life for herself, to have obstacles placed on her during mortality, she renders service by helping us learn what service is.'

I have never forgotten that. And the Spirit bore witness to me at that time, many years ago, that what that Bishop said was true. So I agree with you. I believe we worked out and were very aware of what trials awaited us when we came here, and agreed and covenanted to overcome them, obey and return back to live with our Heavenly Father. And I also believe that we didn't truly realize how truly difficult it would be once we got here, fully in Satan's playground, as it were, where he is the big bully in the yard.

Thankfully, He doesn't leave us alone. We have the scriptures, prayer, and those tender mercies of our Heavenly Father to help us return home...

[lost123]

I think if something in the Forum sounds trivial, then don't participate in the discussion. Obviously, what is seemingly important to some may not be to others, there are many threads that I don't participate in because I don't have anything to add to the discussion.

If it is truly trivial, then the statement should be "all is required of everyone" not "where much is given much is required". If you think there is no difference between those two statements then I think "where much is given" is misleading.

I apologize if you were offended by my statement. It wasn't intended as such. I was just light-heartedly expressing that I don't think it really matters whether or not gifts came with us or not. I believe it matters only that we do all we can with what we have to help serve the Lord's purposes. There is nothing wrong with discussions that make us think. You have done that successfully. But in thinking I think we must be careful "not to look beyond the mark." However, you have made me take personal stock about my own stewardship as a member of the church.

If you look at the context of the scripture in section 82, it appears that Joseph Smith is referring to the blessings and responsibilities associated with the gospel...as he follows "Unto whom much is given much is required;" with "and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation." I think gifts of the priesthood can be applied here, as is gifts of the atonement, gift of charity, spiritual gifts. He is the giver. We magnify it. The glory is His...not ours. In the same section he shares with us about the law of consecration. So...I think that can be applied here: Where much is given much is required.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I apologize if you were offended by my statement. It wasn't intended as such. I was just light-heartedly expressing that I don't think it really matters whether or not gifts came with us or not. I believe it matters only that we do all we can with what we have to help serve the Lord's purposes. There is nothing wrong with discussions that make us think. You have done that successfully. But in thinking I think we must be careful "not to look beyond the mark." However, you have made me take personal stock about my own stewardship as a member of the church.

If you look at the context of the scripture in section 82, it appears that Joseph Smith is referring to the blessings and responsibilities associated with the gospel...as he follows "Unto whom much is given much is required;" with "and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation." I think gifts of the priesthood can be applied here, as is gifts of the atonement, gift of charity, spiritual gifts. He is the giver. We magnify it. The glory is His...not ours. In the same section he shares with us about the law of consecration. So...I think that can be applied here: Where much is given much is required.

I am not offended. Thanks.

I commonly think of the phrase "remember who you are". I think that phrase exists because at the moment we are not who we really are, we are behind a thick veil and subject to the carnal natures of our bodies. I guess some think that those two factors don't make much of a difference on their characters and there is very little remembering needed. My feeling is that we learned a lot before this life, at least up to the point of actually having a body. Obviously, it is enough for many, those that die before the age of 8 and those that die with severe diseases that make them unaccountable in this life.

The scope of the subject in D&C 82 is mentioned in my OP but this is why I also included the broader interpretation and description by others such as President Spencer W. Kimball said: “God has endowed us with talents and time, with latent abilities and with opportunities to use and develop them in his service. He therefore expects much of us, his privileged children"

I think this is how most view "where much is given, much is required" speaking of the more inclusive talents etc and not just church assignments.

[Dove]

Well put, Dove,

Your last paragraph reminds me of one of the best talks I ever heard on service. When my wife and I and our little family lived in Japan, we attended a ward whose Bishop had a severely handicapped girl in her tweens. This girl was so handicapped she could do nothing but sit there in her wheelchair and basically drool (not trying to sound dramatic or anything, but that was how severely handicapped she was). Her folks brought her to church every week, and we all loved to see her there, because she did smile a lot when she was happy, or talked to.

One Sunday the Bishop got up and talked of service, and serving our fellow man. Then he made reference to his daughter, and told us 'we don't know what we or anyone else agreed to in the premortal life. Perhaps even my daughter agreed to come in the condition she did. And by agreeing to give up a normal life for herself, to have obstacles placed on her during mortality, she renders service by helping us learn what service is.'

I have never forgotten that. And the Spirit bore witness to me at that time, many years ago, that what that Bishop said was true. So I agree with you. I believe we worked out and were very aware of what trials awaited us when we came here, and agreed and covenanted to overcome them, obey and return back to live with our Heavenly Father. And I also believe that we didn't truly realize how truly difficult it would be once we got here, fully in Satan's playground, as it were, where he is the big bully in the yard.

Thankfully, He doesn't leave us alone. We have the scriptures, prayer, and those tender mercies of our Heavenly Father to help us return home...

Right on!, Sixpacktr....

I don't think we realized how difficult it would be down here. One thing I believe about our trials is that they are purifying tools....The difficulty level is mean to not only purify our hearts. but to cull out of the kingdom those who would turn away...

There's no doubt in my mind that the only way to remain in the gospel is through utter reliance on the atonement/obedience to the promptings of the Spirit. Through this we can love freely with the pure love of Christ~

[spamlds]

I think this points to two principles. One is the obligation we have to the Lord for blessings he gives us. The second is the power of discretion that the Lord uses when judging each of us according to our works. Some of us grow up in the brightest, sunniest part of the vineyard, while others grow in the "nethermost part" of it.

Some people are born into the Church, born in the covenant, in free countries, into homes that are relatively affluent, where they don't suffer hunger, want, or lack of love and affection. Some people are born into much less favorable circumstances, in poor countries, under oppressive regimes, lacking basic human rights and freedoms. They must struggle and search for the true Church and sometimes they don't find it in this life.

This passage inspires us to count our blessings and to show the Lord gratitude for what we have by doing our part. For example, if you are a young man who was born in the Church, raised in a good environment, have enjoyed the blessings of a gospel-centered home, and your family has the means to support you on a mission, by all rights you "owe" the Lord a mission. You were given much, so much is required.

When the Lord judges us, he will take into account the opportunities we were given to respond to truth and to serve him. If we were greatly blessed but didn't rise to the opportunities, our judgment will be more severe than someone's who had much fewer opportunities, but took advantage of them to the fullest.

[lost123]

I am not offended. Thanks.

I commonly think of the phrase "remember who you are". I think that phrase exists because at the moment we are not who we really are, we are behind a thick veil and subject to the carnal natures of our bodies. I guess some think that those two factors don't make much of a difference on their characters and there is very little remembering needed. My feeling is that we learned a lot before this life, at least up to the point of actually having a body. Obviously, it is enough for many, those that die before the age of 8 and those that die with severe diseases that make them unaccountable in this life.

The scope of the subject in D&C 82 is mentioned in my OP but this is why I also included the broader interpretation and description by others such as President Spencer W. Kimball said: “God has endowed us with talents and time, with latent abilities and with opportunities to use and develop them in his service. He therefore expects much of us, his privileged children"

I think this is how most view "where much is given, much is required" speaking of the more inclusive talents etc and not just church assignments.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

When we realize that what lies within us is God's then, and only then, can you understand what you are talking about properly. I have come to find in life's journey that those people who get stuck on themselves and their talents as though they are gifts of self entitlement do a lot of self-stroking. It is a selfish and wicked pride. The truth of it is that when people start realising that all things whether they came in the spirit or not are gifts of God and belong to Him. To have the opinion that we are more than someone else or are entitled to more than someone else OR that our talents belong to us is ludicrous and dangerous. If anything, one should take into account that the Lord will hold us more accountable for what we do on Earth to serve him based on our opportunities to serve. We all came in spirit with different levels of intelligences. That matters not, What is important is that we fulfill the measure of our creation and put them in use for the glory of God. Think of the war in Heaven. Satan thought he was entitled. That was the reason Satan fell.

[LDSJewess]

What exactly is “given”?

In D&C 82 (see below) it seems to be talking about just knowledge or the gospel. President Kimball (see below) seems to expand that to talents and time and abilities. Luke 10 (see below), parable of the unjust steward, seems to extend that to money or things of this world (or mammon). So, what exactly is “given”? In other words, what are the things of this world that we have that we didn’t have before, thus, “given” to us in this life?

How a person answers that question is a statement also of how much they believe is carried through from the previous life. For example, if a person is a great speaker or jovial or kind or driven or intelligent etc., is that something ‘given’ or is that just their personality that was carried through from their spiritual self? If it is their spiritual self, then it is not ‘given’ as in this life’s stewardship, therefore, not required of us to ‘give back’ any of that, it was already ours.

We had a talk on gratitude the other day in Sacrament meeting and the message was to be grateful for all that we are given in this life. To do that one needs to know what is ‘given’. If we say “everything” is given, which I think is the ‘knee-jerk’ response to that …. Think about that a second. If we think “everything” is given, then that would include traits and skills and personality. I think most believe, at least to some degree, that ‘who-they-are’ is how they act and interact here, in other words those features are not “given” they come naturally to that person.

We have to be careful how we view this because if one says, “I’m intelligent because that is my spirit coming through, my spirit is this intelligent” then;

1.) that person isn’t thankful for that trait as a ‘given’ trait and

2.) they would not see that trait as something from which ‘much is

required’ back. (because it wasn't "given" it was just carried through

to this life)

If we are asked to be thankful for everything we are given then that would also include our personalities, our likes and dislikes, our individual mannerisms etc, things we may not have had before.

D&C 82:3 “ 3For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.”

President Spencer W. Kimball said: “God has endowed us with talents and time, with latent abilities and with opportunities to use and develop them in his service. He therefore expects much of us, his privileged children” (The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 100).

Luke 12: “ 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

Luke 10: “10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?”

Also, parable of the 10 talents and unjust steward.

From the time I can remember having the ability to think, I have been eternally grateful for my life.

I believe that EVERYTHING I was, have, everything I am, and everything I will become, comesfrom God. I am grateful for all of it and always amazed at the awesome wonders of life. Since I feel completely connected to all life, it is not just about me but all that encompasses life. God is far more awesome and vast then any of us can fathom. But I believe even on a personal level, every atom, molecule, dna, personality trait, the ability to think, reason, learn, grow (be it physically, mentally or spiritually), are all given as wonderous gifts from God.

And when I think of the physical, the tiniest details are amazing. How our eyes can expand and contract and take in light, how our hearts pump nourishing blood, how our flesh heals itself from wounds, how our bodies heal themselves from serious illness and how our lungs take in air, all completely automatic without much thought on our part. What incredible design and engineering are our bodies, a gift from God.

And when I think of the ability we have to learn, and our talents to create, and our feeling of ambition to ever grow and progress and become. Someone posted about being "given" money. But what is way more amazing is the inate drive , ambition, and prompting to create prosperity. How amazing is that? It can only come from God.

I think we were given the gift of life before we ever got here, just as our gift of life will continue when we return from whence we came.

I am grateful for every thought of it, every breath of it. Or as it is said. It's all good! :)