Wayward Children Born under the Covenant


Vanhin
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When Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith, he quoted from the 3rd chapter of Malachi slighty differently than it is in our Bible.

For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble; for they that come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

I think that rendition of the passage is hauntingly important for all generations of the world to understand. The wicked will be cut off from not only the presence of God and the righteous, which they cannot abide, but will sadly be left with neither root nor branch. I picture in my mind a charred tree, with no life, no connection to the source from which it came, and barren from further producing life.

And I love what Moroni teaches next, which I view as the remedy to preventing the condition described above.

Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming. (Joseph Smith—History 1Â*)

There is real power, beyond our own capacity to fully comprehend, offered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as it is manifested in the covenants and ordinances of His gospel. They are called "saving ordinances" for a reason.

The New and Everlasting Covenant, which encompasses all required ordiances performed in mortality, from baptism to temple sealings, will carry not only ourselves, but our forebearers and posterity from this life safely into the eternal abode of God. Of course covenants must ultimately be kept, however, God intends to save as many of his Children that he can, without violating the precious agency which He has given them.

I especially take comfort in knowing that my children are born under the covenant, and are thus bound to my wife and I. The following quote should comfort LDS parents who are sealed, who have wayward children.

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother” (Joseph SMith, in History of the Church, 5:530).

And this one.

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (in Discourses of Brigham Young, 208).

I found these while reading through the Eternal Marriage Student Manual (see Eternal Marriage Student Manual - Wayward Children Born under the Covenant).

Regards,

Vanhin

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I do not disbelieve this doctrine, but I do not understand it. Example:

My grandmother was widowed with nine children. One of those, a son, married a woman and had children with her, then left his family and the Church to take up with a woman in a commune in another state. He smoked heavily, drank, did other various drugs, and lived there until the day he died at a young age (early 70s; his mother lived into her 90s) a couple of years back.

My grandmother died about fifteen years ago. I remember her saying not long before her death how she wished this son would return. But he never did in this life, despite my grandmother's fervent hope and firm faith.

I cannot and do not pass any final judgment on my uncle. I could not see into his heart. But I could see what he did with his life, and it was not pretty. I did not see any tentacles of divine providence drawing him back; instead, it looked like rebellion. So I don't see how this doctrine applies.

We can say, "Well, we don't know people's hearts and we don't know the mind of God, so we can assume that those children will eventually return in the afterlife, accept their covenants, and be raised unto eternal life." But if we make that assumption for children of the covenant, why not just make that assumption for everyone else, too? After all, God is no respecter of persons.

We know why we don't make that assumption, of course. It is an apostate doctrine. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, and it shall be well with us! Nevertheless, fear God; he will justify in committing a little sin. Yea, lie a little, take advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die. And if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God! For God has created all flesh, and he will also save all flesh!

We recognize this immediately as the false, vain, foolish doctrine it is. Yet that's what the salvation of covenant children ultimately sounds like. Anyone care to shed some light on this topic?

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I'm with you, Vort. I don't understand this. It flies in the face of agency. It appears that I have to work for exaltation, but my kids get a free pass. Doesn't sound right to me.

I can easily admit that I simply don't understand it or that my mortal mind cannot grasp the concept.

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I totally understand what you mean Vort.

I think like many promises made to the covenant people of Lord, they are often realized beyond the scope of this mortal life. Many people have talked about their patriarchal blessings, for example, or about the patriarchal blessings of people who have died, where promises were made but not fulfilled during their life time.

I cannot say that I know how the promises will be fulfilled, in each case, but I have no doubt that God is faithful in this matter, since He has spoken this doctrine through his servants many times.

At the same time I acknowledge that one must receive the ordinances and be faithful to the covenants they make in order to be exalted. All sin must be repented of, or one must suffer as Christ did (D&C 19:17). But having to suffer for our sins does not necessarily exempt us from exaltation. We have at least one clear example in scripture that explains that even such a person can enter their exaltation. At the very least it gives us a glimpse into the extent that God will go to save his children. How eternally merciful he really is.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. (D&C 132:26)

Some food for thought anyway. Clearly a son of perdition is beyond salvation, no matter what. But I for one believe the doctrine, though my understanding of how it is possible necessarily remains speculation at this point.

Regards,

Vanhin

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The root cause of this confusion is that we do not understand the purpose of sealing of children to parents. What purpose does it serve in the eternities? It's clearly important and necessary but we have only the vaguest of answers on the why.

Consider this example of an ideal situation. A pair of parents make it to the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation. All of there kids make it there as well on their own. What purpose will the kids being sealed to the parents serve once they are all there? We don't really know.

Lets pull in another quote on the subject

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared-and he never taught a more comforting doctrine-that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report, April 1929, p. 110).

This quote to me says that even in the reclamation process the wayward kid doesn't get away from paying for their sin. In fact it sounds alot like what happens to those that inherit the Telestial kingdom. After playing for their sins in hell they are saved.

Is there any reason Exalted Parents could not be present in the Telestial kingdom with their Telestial kids? (I understand the reverse doesn't work)

Is there any direct promise that the wayward kids will be exalted? Any explicit promise of the celestial kingdom? I only read being saved which can be vague term in LDS circles.

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Is there any reason Exalted Parents could not be present in the Telestial kingdom with their Telestial kids? (I understand the reverse doesn't work)

Is there any direct promise that the wayward kids will be exalted? Any explicit promise of the celestial kingdom? I only read being saved which can be vague term in LDS circles.

If we think of "sealing" as entailing something other than "constant physical proximity", and "degrees of glory" as something other than "a fixed geographical location where all people of a particular level of 'worthiness' reside together", President Young and Elder Whitney's assurances make a bit more sense.

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We recognize this immediately as the false, vain, foolish doctrine it is. Yet that's what the salvation of covenant children ultimately sounds like. Anyone care to shed some light on this topic?

The quote attributed to Joseph Smith comes from Joseph Smith and William Clayton's journals (as well as others present when Joseph Smith allegedly said it) It was in the funeral of judge Elias Higbee, his children were what we would consider "wayward" and the prophet even offered sealing ordinances to some of Higbee's daughters in law.

The problem is that when historians tried to reconstruct the story, made the text sound like the sealing ordinance of children to parents seems to guarantee them exaltation regardless of how bad they lived and the knowledge they possessed.

However, in Howard and Martha Coray's notebook (present at the funeral) the quote actually talks about kids who have NOT transgressed. Ehat and Cook made a remarkable point that is more consistent to LDS doctrine:

When the Church historians amalgamated the entries from the Joseph Smith Diary and the William Clayton Diary to create the version of this discourse that was published, the passage that the blessings conferred by the ordinance of sealing parents and children was unconditional. The wording of the published version suggests that the children of parents who receive the fulness of the priesthood can never fall. This previously unpublished, more complete account of the Prophet’s idea does contain a conditional. Clearly this a more reasonable and consistent doctrine: if it were not for such a conditional, the concept would contradict significant doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, not the least of which would be a contradiction of his article of faith that “men will be punished for their own sins.”The Words of Joseph Smith, p.241, 300

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To me it is more like a promise to the parents that if they do all they possibly can their wayard children will come back .... we live that in my family. My parents had 3 kids ... to date one is active (me), my brother next to me in age is the wayward one ... he knows it's true but hasn't rounded up the courage to act on it .. my youngest brother is our example .. he came to earth long enough to get his body and went home ... we push forward to be with him.

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And this one.

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (in Discourses of Brigham Young, 208).

I found these while reading through the Eternal Marriage Student Manual (see Eternal Marriage Student Manual - Wayward Children Born under the Covenant).

Regards,

Vanhin

Why does this not just mean; "the fountain from whence they sprang" = the spirit world or pre-mortal world where our Heavenly Parents dwell. We all return to spirit form, once the veil passes and remember keeping our first estate, this is the fountain from which allowed us to be born on earth, in other words, that allowed us to be born and have earthly parents. We will then realize all the mistakes we made here even if they were really bad ones ... the children will not remain in that lost state forever. Receiving any degree of glory will allow the relationship to continue to some degree.

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Why does this not just mean; "the fountain from whence they sprang" = the spirit world or pre-mortal world where our Heavenly Parents dwell. We all return to spirit form, once the veil passes and remember keeping our first estate, this is the fountain from which allowed us to be born on earth, in other words, that allowed us to be born and have earthly parents. We will then realize all the mistakes we made here even if they were really bad ones ... the children will not remain in that lost state forever. Receiving any degree of glory will allow the relationship to continue to some degree.

Well sure, you can interpret it that way. Though I think it is more plausible that Brigham Young is referring to the "father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom", as in the beginning of the quote.

Personally I'm happy with the interpretation that the quote means "exaltation", which would be consistent with longstanding doctrine taught in the Church concerning sealings and wayward children. Especially considering the fact that it can be established that those in lesser degrees of glory remain single, not enjoying the same relationship with one another as the exalted will. Even those who merit the celestial kingdom, who are not exalted, will "remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity" (D&C 132:17). So, I think that rules out any condition in the other degrees of glory that "will allow the relationship to continue". You see what I mean?

Our temple president made reference to this doctrine just recently, quoting general authorities who have taught the same things when visiting/training temple presidencies, which is consistent with curriculum in the Church, like the Eternal Marriage Student Manual. He was trying to make the case for how important temple work was.

Now, I personally don't think that the doctrine is meant to relieve anyone of their own accountability, or to work outside of the principles of agency. I've tried to express as much in my posts above. I generally believe that somehow God will help those of our wayward children who desire it, to work out their salvation in one way or another, or to suffer the demands of justice for any sins that they haven't repented of, before entering their exaltation. Obviously, those who do not want to be exalted, will not be. No one will be forced against their will into exaltation.

But that is in the realm of speculation for me. I really don't know how God intends to accomplish this feat, even though I don't doubt he is capable of it.

I will say this, what this doctrine means is that parents should increase their efforts to receive the blessings of the temple, and to remain true their covenants for their own and their children's sake. So, regardless of the true nature of the doctrine, the implication is good. It doesn't hurt for us to strive even more diligently to be true to our covenants anyway. :)

Think about the faith and prayers of Alma Sr., for example. His prayers were heard, and a spectacular thing happened to Alma Jr., when an angel appeared to convince him to turn from the path that he was on, and to repent.

And again, the angel said: Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith. (Mosiah 27:14)

I think faithful latter-day saint parents, who have children sealed to them, can tap into the powers of heaven in that fashion, and God will hear their pleas and provide every opportunity for their wayward children to repent, in this world or the next, before it is too late.

It is so important for us to prepare for and receive the ordinances of salvation, for ourselves, our families, and our dead.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Well sure, you can interpret it that way. Though I think it is more plausible that Brigham Young is referring to the "father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom", as in the beginning of the quote.

I think faithful latter-day saint parents, who have children sealed to them, can tap into the powers of heaven in that fashion, and God will hear their pleas and provide every opportunity for their wayward children to repent, in this world or the next, before it is too late.

It is so important for us to prepare for and receive the ordinances of salvation, for ourselves, our families, and our dead.

Regards,

Vanhin

If you think that the "fountain from which they sprang" is their earthly parents than I think you are missing the reference to the fountain of living waters which is the love of God.

1 Nephi 11:25 " 25And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God."

This is just a reference to finding our way through the mist of this world and back to our Heavenly Father. The spirit gives us life, our earthly parents do not give us our spirits.

I think this is just saying that if the parents remain faithful they (not the children if they don't remain faithful and repent) can maintain a connection, kind of a one way street. They are still in a kingdom of glory so there still is joy to be gleaned from that relationship but the person that is in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdom wont see the relationship the same way. Just in the same way God loves everyone in this world whether they love Him or not, the parents can love their earthly children in other kingdoms even if they don't see the relationship the same way. There is value to that. And that link can be maintained through ordinances.

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I'm with you, Vort. I don't understand this. It flies in the face of agency. It appears that I have to work for exaltation, but my kids get a free pass. Doesn't sound right to me.

I can easily admit that I simply don't understand it or that my mortal mind cannot grasp the concept.

+ 1

I was born in the covenant, but that does not by any means give me a free pass to live a wicked life.

If I do so, knowing full well the will of God and his commandments, and rebel doing as I please - "committing whoredoms and murder and all manner of wickedness", I will burn in hell forever.

"can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins."

There is no foot note or addendum in that passage of scripture that says, "Unless you have been sealed to your parents. Then you are good to go."

Laman and Lemuel had a righteous father to which I am sure they either were sealed or have been/will be at some point, but they were wicked and must pay the price.

Mercy cannot rob justice, neither can being sealed to parents.

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But, like others have said; maybe it refers to relationships that continue beyond the grave despite posterity being locked in a kingdom of lesser glory... That's how I understood it anyway

Right, the parents relationship to the child doesn't have to stop just because the child doesn't recognize any personal relationship to the parents. In the same way God still loves atheists.

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Well, this is the perfect place for me to share:

I was widowed when our youngest was 10. This child was raised from babyhood on daily prayer, scripture, testimony of Christ, etc. When around 17, this child went inactive; and 3 years later became an agnostic. He believes we shouldn't be burdened with guilt over our human ways/tendencies.

He is still very loved; I make sure he knows I love him, and that his deceased dad (though this son doesn't believe we exsist when this life ends) also loves him.

He says believing in God was hard to give up because of the comfort,. I think a big chunk of this is that he found acceptance with internet friends that were athiest. We have talked many times, and I finally see that this was an intellectual decision on his part. For a long while he was agnostic, but now he's mostly decided he's athiest.

Let's remember that this life and our choices go beyond the grave to the time of judgement, so those that die in 'sins' can still make choices of change/repentance. God is a greatly merciful being. Only He can judge and see into our hearts and hurts. Let's also remember that satan uses our weak areas, as well as our griefs, to grab us away from truth, and especially is glad to grab us away from believing in Christ.

My hope is in the story of Alma the younger. The Spirit tells me to keep praying, that a parent's prayers, as well as a parents righteous example, makes a difference; so I choose to trust Him to change the mind and heart of this beloved son of ours. I also feel that his dad can do more to help him from the other side of the veil than I can do here. If I didn't believe in Christ and His holy gift of repentance/change, I'd be a huge mess of tears and agony and sorrow over this......not that I didn't go through that stage/shock......I prayerfully choose to not stay there. The Spirit also asked me to keep a picture in my mind of our ENTIRE family in the temple/covenants. I have a great amount of peace that could only come from God. NO, I do not accept this choice of my son.......it is however, my choice to love this son and accept him as the wonderful, kind, lost young man that he is.

Edited by shine7
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My apologies for delaying my response.

For those who are sealed, the doctrine is that most if not all will be exalted through, in part, the vicarious actions and efforts of their parents, and the enabling power of the Atonement as manifested in Priesthood ordinances.

The intention of this thread is not to convince those who disbelieve such doctrine, or to offer alternate interpretations than what is taught in the Church, but to offer hope to those with wayward family members.

If you disbelieve the doctrine you will have to take it up with those authorized servants of the Lord who have taught it and who teach it. This doctrine is taught consistently from Joseph Smith until now, and is found in the current curriculum of the Church. But ultimately, you will have to decide for yourself what you believe in, like I have.

Some of you have expressed your objection to the doctrine on the basis that it appears to be contrary to the principles of personal agency. I never saw it that way, and based on the teachings that I have heard and read on this topic, I don't know where you get that. If that is your only objection to believing the doctrine, then you can rest assured that it is not the case. We cannot be saved in our sins, no matter what.

Here is more on the topic, that I gleaned from fairlds.org while researching.

What is the fate of the wayward?

Lorenzo Snow taught a doctrine of hope:

If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity.[9]

President Snow is very clear: this promise applies in the eternities—unless the critic believes he is already a “king and priest to [his] God” who has received “a resurrection” there are no grounds for despair.

This doctrine goes back to Joseph Smith, as Orson F. Whitney taught:

You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don’t give them up. Don’t cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours—long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend…the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. … They will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God…[10]

And, President Howard W. Hunter gave perspective and reassurance on these issues:

[E]veryone is different. Each of us is unique. Each child is unique. Just as each of us starts at a different point in the race of life, and just as each of us has different strengths and weaknesses and talents, so each child is blessed with his own special set of characteristics. We must not assume that the Lord will judge the success of one in precisely the same way as another. As parents we often assume that, if our child doesn’t become an overachiever in every way, we have failed. We should be careful in our judgments.[11]

(Mormonism and culture/Wayward family members - FAIRMormon)

I hope that there are parents who find comfort and a renewed commitment to the gospel from prayerfully pondering this doctrine concerning their wayward children.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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One more quick note.

The late councilor in the First Presidency, James E. Faust, made the following comment in a talk concerning the above quote by Elder Orson F. Whitney.

A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.” 9 If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

“And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.” 10(Dear Are the Sheep That Have Wandered)

Regards,

Vanhin

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Joseph said:

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother” (Joseph SMith, in History of the Church, 5:530).

I interpret this to mean becouse the wayward child is sealed to their parents they will be saved. As in they will not be lost (outer darkness). I believe that becouse they are sealed, they will inheret a place in one of the lower kingdoms.

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Wayward children will have the chance to repent and accept the gospel prior to judgement day, just like everyone else. We do not understand the heart of another, not even our children. Even though we have taught them, they are BIC, and they went to Primary and were active in the youth programs does not guarantee they really KNOW. "He without ears....."

Only Christ can judge a person's heart or what that child truly knows.

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Lorenzo Snow taught a doctrine of hope:

If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity.[9]

President Snow is very clear: this promise applies in the eternities—unless the critic believes he is already a “king and priest to [his] God” who has received “a resurrection” there are no grounds for despair.

I assume this applies to Adam and Eve and all their posterity. So, who is left out of this saving? Nobody. I am not seeing what is unique about this other than saying that those that obey the commandments and accept the ordinances whether in this or the next can be saved from outer darkness.

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It appears to me that salvation is a simple thing. The problem is not what a person has done - the problem is what constitutes salvation.

1. Follow the principles and ordinances of the Gospel which are:

a. Faith in Jesus Christ

b. Repentance

c. Baptism - by authority

d. Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

2. Included in the gospel of repentance is the doctrine of agency. Agency implies that not only must we make a decision to follow the gospel but we must do so willingly. Just because someone has done things “for” us does not mean that individual agency does not apply. Therefore the first step toward righteousness and salvation (freedom) is discipline - the first step towards unrighteousness and damnation (bondage) is self indulgence.

3. The last important element is to understand is the love and mercy of G-d. Anyone that desires salvation - G-d (according to G-d’s plan of salvation) will redeem them, help them and teach them until they either have completed what is needed for salvation or by their own will, say enough and desire a different course and end. As I said in another post some would rather not forgive others - denying the atonement before G-d that the sins of others was paid for and thus deny the spirit of G-d.

The only thing that makes any of this difficult is when we make it difficult or more complex than it is.

The Traveler

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I assume this applies to Adam and Eve and all their posterity. So, who is left out of this saving? Nobody.

No one is left out of an opportunity to be exalted. However, not every couple has received the sealing ordinances, from Adam and Eve to today. Those who received the ordinances, and are true to them, whether they received them in this life or vicariously in the next, are whose children are affected. Only children either born to parents who are sealed, or later sealed to their parents are recepients of these blessings. The doctrine does not negate agency, as has been clarified by myself and by some of the quotations I have posted. What it appears to do is offer extra time, extra opportunity for the children to repent, or suffer the penalties, if they want to be exalted. If they choose not to be exalted, then of course they will not be, but will instead be received into one of the other kingdoms of glory.

I am not seeing what is unique about this other than saying that those that obey the commandments and accept the ordinances whether in this or the next can be saved from outer darkness.

Well, parents who never receive the sealing ordinances, of their own choice, are not able to give their children this extra benefit in their quest for salvation. That's what is unique. It's no different, from a secular perspective, when you have children born into circumstances where there is some form of dysfunction, such as substance abuse or physical abuse, compared to children born into stable families. One group is arguably at an advantage over the other, yet both have an opportunity to succeed in life.

I think your statement about outer darkness is flawed. Accepting the ordinances and obeying the commandements does not save you from outer darkness, but rather from the other degrees of glory. Exaltation is salvation in the kingdom of God. Righteous parents whose election is made sure by the sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise, because they have proven themselves to be true and faithful, are the ones in peril of becoming sons of perdition - if they then turn around and commit the unpardonable sin (see D&C 132). Everyone else is destined for a kingdom of glory even if they don't accept the gospel. So, this doctrine cannot mean what you are saying. The sealing power is not needed for a person to end up in one of the other kingdoms of glory.

In any case, it seems to me that you simply don't want to believe the doctrine until you you fully understand it. My advice is, just believe it, and do your best to be that parent. But if you don't want to, I'm ok with that too. As long as you understand that the interpretation given by the leaders of the Church is "exaltation", not just salvation from outer darkness. That is what Lorenzo Snow is saying in the quote of mine that you posted. I'll put it out here again, because it is perhaps the most clear understanding on the matter.

If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity.[9]

Regards,

Vanhin

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