Word of Wisdom?

[john doe]

Are you suggesting food shipped across the country is preferrable and the lack of availability was the sole reason people ate local produce?

I was pointing out the silliness of that point. Justifying the eating of locally-grown food now by pointing out that they did that 200 years ago is a red herring. I agree with the idea of eating local food as much as possible, for a variety of reasons, but to say that what was good enough for the pioneers is good enough for us is not really a valid argument.

Personally, I like big navel oranges, bananas, and other tropical fruits, and I'm not going to stop eating them just because I can't find any farmed within 50 miles of my home. They're good to eat, and good for me.

I guess to a point I do agree with the last part of your allegation. The lack of availability and refrigeration technology was a huge reason why people didn't eat a whole lot of food produced outside their immediate area in the 1800s. Was it the only one? No, but it was a big hurdle that needed to be crossed before nationwide shipping of fresh food products could occur. Speed of transportation was also a factor. You may not know this, but sometimes it would take months to cross the plains back in the olden days. Most travel happened during the summer, when it was hot. The combination of heat and time would cause spoilage issues for people trying to send fresh goods very far. I don't have a book to refer you to in regards to this statement, I hope you just take it on my own personal experience. You can try it too, if you want. Take a tomato and a potato and set them on your back porch for a month, and observe them over time. The results are pretty conclusive, at least to me.

[john doe]

Next you'll be telling me the reason they didn't Facebook was because the internet wasn't even invented yet!

Oh come on, we all know Al Gore isn't that old.

[Backroads]

I was pointing out the silliness of that point. Justifying the eating of locally-grown food now by pointing out that they did that 200 years ago is a red herring. I agree with the idea of eating local food as much as possible, for a variety of reasons, but to say that what was good enough for the pioneers is good enough for us is not really a valid argument.

Personally, I like big navel oranges, bananas, and other tropical fruits, and I'm not going to stop eating them just because I can't find any farmed within 50 miles of my home. They're good to eat, and good for me.

I guess to a point I do agree with the last part of your allegation. The lack of availability and refrigeration technology was a huge reason why people didn't eat a whole lot of food produced outside their immediate area in the 1800s. Was it the only one? No, but it was a big hurdle that needed to be crossed before nationwide shipping of fresh food products could occur. Speed of transportation was also a factor. You may not know this, but sometimes it would take months to cross the plains back in the olden days. Most travel happened during the summer, when it was hot. The combination of heat and time would cause spoilage issues for people trying to send fresh goods very far. I don't have a book to refer you to in regards to this statement, I hope you just take it on my own personal experience. You can try it too, if you want. Take a tomato and a potato and set them on your back porch for a month, and observe them over time. The results are pretty conclusive, at least to me.

Gotcha. I had this mental image of pioneers saying to themselves "Well, it's next-to-impossible to get California oranges, so we'll whine and complain and eat the veggies out in the garden".

[Guest Sachi001]

I"m sorry, but this is the worse concocted stuff I've read here in a while (at least since Bert10 left the scene).

So you are so conscience about the food. How about your car, oil companies? How about your lighting and refrigeration, Utilities? How about your home, More oil companies, deforestation from lumber companies? Your light bulbs, GE? Heck, the aluminum in the cans of soda? It's so ok to be righteous about the WoW and tell everyone else that buying peanut butter cups (my fav) are supporting child labor. But we'll not look at anything else or any other products we're using. No, that phrase isn't in any other commandment so it must be ok.

It's selective righteous living. And to put that out there by saying "I don't support corrupt food companies" while behind you are all the other products and services you use that are from these so called "corrupt" companies is just disingenuous at best.

Apparently you are focused on corrupt and do not pay any attention on the verse. Nice straw-man argument.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Sachi001

[Guest Sachi001]

I didn't miss verse 4. I was clearly pointing out your mistake in calling tea and coffee "strong drinks" (when in fact are "hot drinks") and the fact that you added chocolate. You may interpret that verse in whatever way you may wish (no problem with me at all) but that's your personal interpretation, not the Church interpretation. I cannot go to the Temple if I keep drinking tea and coffee or alcohol but I CAN go if I eat or drink chocolate.

Now, I am not arguing the health aspects with regards to chocolate and so many other foods eh or even your theory of corrupt companies, but I am pointing out merely what the scripture tell us and how the Church presently interprets those verses.

Then what would you call Kava. Strong or Hot drink? It's banned by the 1st presidency in 2003 you know.

Second I added chocolate as an example of verse 4 in "Evil Designs" as a reason not partake. You can have chocolate but at what cost? Do you select from sellers who do not participate in enslavement or those who do so knowingly. It is why I gave the history on the East Indies companies. Now that you know Hershey's participates knowingly in supporting child slavery (evil designs). Would you still buy as an LDS or would you find an alternative chocolate manufacturer that does not do evil designs?

The key word is knowingly.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Sachi001

[slamjet]

Then what would you call Kava. Strong or Hot drink? It's banned by the 1st presidency in 2003 you know.

Second I added chocolate as an example of verse 4 in "Evil Designs" as a reason not partake. You can have chocolate but at what cost? Do you select from sellers who do not participate in enslavement or those who do so knowingly. It is why I gave the history on the East Indies companies. Now that you know Hershey's participates knowingly in supporting child slavery (evil designs). Would you still buy as an LDS or would you find an alternative chocolate manufacturer that does not do evil designs?

The key word is knowingly.

Yes. You have not posted a single source supporting your position.

[slamjet]

Apparently you are focused on corrupt and do not pay any attention on the verse. Nice straw-man argument.

Just using your words. You alternately used both corrupt and evil designs.

[john doe]

Then what would you call Kava. Strong or Hot drink? It's banned by the 1st presidency in 2003 you know.

Very interesting. Can you point me to the official declaration of this? I had not heard of this.

[pam]

I've never heard the 1st Presidency specifically mention kava. Maybe they did in the islands but not the church as a whole. But knowing what kava can do and the damage it can cause if used in abundance and frequently, it's a no brainer. Common sense should say something.

[Javajot]

More fuel on the fire:

I read recently on here about decaf coffee being against the WoW.

Since when? I asked my bishop a few years ago about it and he said decaf is fine.

[Guest Sachi001]

Just using your words. You alternately used both corrupt and evil designs.

I used corrupt one time in all my posts. Also in your other response I gave sources on slavery in chocolate, tea and coffee in the 1st post. You just need to sit through the videos.

I will give you other sources later as in a couple of minutes we have a Bishopric meeting.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Sachi001

[Guest Sachi001]

I've never heard the 1st Presidency specifically mention kava. Maybe they did in the islands but not the church as a whole. But knowing what kava can do and the damage it can cause if used in abundance and frequently, it's a no brainer. Common sense should say something.

Yes it was announced at the Stake Conference by letter form the 1st Presidency in 2003. I have no clue where to look up that letter. It was in relation that Kava parties were often too common and deriding saints from acting in PH. Such as neglecting callings, service, missionary work etc...

BTW for those interested Kava is a root grounded into powder form. Then added to hot or cold water to make a drink. Giving a calming effect. When I tasted before ban it was like cross between black tea nad chicory coffee with a pepper taste. It was really awful.

If you watched the movie "The Other Side of Heaven" that was the drink the missionary had to partake in the beginning.

[Guest Sachi001]

Another thing that same year. There are LDS that grow coffee trees and sell the product. They were warned to destroy their crops and seek other venture. They should have listened. The coffee borer worm has arrived and destroy already 1/4 of all Kona Coffee crops. The state is talking about destroying all coffee trees and Kona Coffee will no longer be available for 7 years if that happens.

[pam]

Yes it was announced at the Stake Conference by letter form the 1st Presidency in 2003. I have no clue where to look up that letter. It was in relation that Kava parties were often too common and deriding saints from acting in PH. Such as neglecting callings, service, missionary work etc...

BTW for those interested Kava is a root grounded into powder form. Then added to hot or cold water to make a drink. Giving a calming effect. When I tasted before ban it was like cross between black tea nad chicory coffee with a pepper taste. It was really awful.

If you watched the movie "The Other Side of Heaven" that was the drink the missionary had to partake in the beginning.

Then it may have been a letter directed to the people in the islands since that's where it originates. I do not remember any such letter ever being read. Nor have I even heard anyone mention such a letter until you did.

[slamjet]

Here is an excerpt from BYU-H Honor Code:

Over the years we have observed an increase in problems resulting from the misuse of kava (awa, yaqona) for social clubbing or party drinking. There has been chronic absenteeism from classes and work, with decreased church activity and marital infidelity, thus causing students to drop out of school. We are especially grieved when men neglect their families causing undue stress and unhappiness in the homes. In light of all these concerns, kava clubbing or party drinking is now a violation of the university honor code.

This regulation should not be construed as anti-culture, for kava has its vital place in the ceremonies and culture of Polynesia. But there is not doubt in our mind, that there is a vast difference between the ceremonial drinking of kava (such as in greeting a high ranking chief, bestowing a chiefly title, etc.) and the party drinking of kava. We believe this action will bring us in harmony with the teaching and principle of the Gospel.

In a recent general conference address, Elder Boyd. K Packer gave us some direct admonition regarding the above issue. "Everything harmful is not specifically listed [in the Word of Wisdom]; arsenic, for instance is certainly bad, but not habit forming! 'He who must be commanded in all things,' the Lord said, 'is a slothful and not a wise servant.' (D&C 58:26) In some cultures, native drinks are claimed to be harmless because they are not specifically mentioned in the revelation. Yet they draw members, particularly men, from their families to parties which certainly offend the principle. Promises made in the revelation will be denied to the careless or the reckless." (Conference talk. April, 1996)

If it was banned, I would assume it would be spelled out here.

[Kolob]

Somethings don't have to be spelled out.

Just remember one thing. The word of wisdom requires you to make wise choices.

If you question anything at all ask the lord. Or more directly your bishop or branch president.

But usually if you have to ask it's usually because the spirit is making you feel like it might not be ok.

Doctrine and Covenants 89 

[slamjet]

I do believe what I just posted spelled that out pretty well. In any case, that's not what I was exploring. Read the past few posts before mine and you will see where we're coming from.

[Kolob]

I'm sorry brother but I will not contend with you.

I've seen several of your posts, and Idk what your life situation is right now, or what sort of day you had.

But it seems to me you have the spirit of contention. Your only trying to disprove peoples advice, and make arguments. Brother I hope you don't take offense to any of this.

I just wont be contending here. I'm only here to chat with other saints and help others out. Never to discredit anyone. Or make them feel less in any way.

Again sorry if this will offend you, it is not my intentions.

[Suzie]

Here is an excerpt from BYU-H Honor Code:

If it was banned, I would assume it would be spelled out here.

Interesting quote, specially this part:

This regulation should not be construed as anti-culture, for kava has its vital place in the ceremonies and culture of Polynesia. But there is not doubt in our mind, that there is a vast difference between the ceremonial drinking of kava (such as in greeting a high ranking chief, bestowing a chiefly title, etc.) and the party drinking of kava. We believe this action will bring us in harmony with the teaching and principle of the Gospel.

The quote doesn't seem to suggest anything wrong with the drink in itself but the parties that are formed surrounded Kava,

[Suzie]

I'm sorry brother but I will not contend with you.

I've seen several of your posts, and Idk what your life situation is right now, or what sort of day you had.

But it seems to me you have the spirit of contention. Your only trying to disprove peoples advice, and make arguments. Brother I hope you don't take offense to any of this.

I just wont be contending here. I'm only here to chat with other saints and help others out. Never to discredit anyone. Or make them feel less in any way.

Again sorry if this will offend you, it is not my intentions.

Are you talking about slamjet? Geez, it seems like you drank too much Kava or need a chill pill.

It's not called contention what Slamjet was doing, it's called debating.

[slamjet]

Are you talking about slamjet? Geez, it seems like you drank too much Kava or need a chill pill.

It's not called contention what Slamjet was doing, it's called debating.

Apparently not for the spiritually high-and-mighty. You ought to see some of the other of his post's about me. One would think I was having a bad life and I'm taking it all out on this forum. Very sad. Very, very sad. All from a poster with the username of Kolob. Kind-of tells me a lot.

Anyhow...

I remember my old man telling me that Argentine Mate was forbidden on his mission. Not because it was bad, but because it it usually had in a group setting, everyone sharing one Mate. So for the sake of not getting dragged into wasting time, and to not catch any communicable germs, it was banned.

[Guest Sachi001]

Interesting quote, specially this part:

The quote doesn't seem to suggest anything wrong with the drink in itself but the parties that are formed surrounded Kava,

I have the Stake Ex Sec looking up that letter as I spoke to him wed night. He will get back to me, but they assurred me that I'm not dreaming. I will post it when it becomes available.

[Guest Sachi001]

Yes. You have not posted a single source supporting your position.

Now like I said there are a few in the first post. Now here are some others:

For books I'm sure your library can come up with these.

The Dutch Slave Trade 1500-1850

P. C. Emmer

Oxford, Berghahn, 2006, ISBN: 1845450310;

Marcondes, R. (2005). Small and Medium Slaveholdings in the Coffee Economy of the Vale do Paraíba, Province of São Paulo. Hispanic American Historical Review, 85(2), 259-281. Retrieved from EBSCOhost.

Singleton, Theresa. "Slavery and spatial dialectics on Cuban coffee plantations." Latin American Studies. Syracuse University, n.d. Web. 16 Mar. 2011. ^ Wild, A. (2005). Slavery and the Coffee Colonies. Coffee: a dark history (pp. 118-148). New York: W.W. Norton.

If your not interested in reading books or just going to the library then a few internet hits perhaps?

Bitter Sweet History - aspects of the British Slave Trade

Chapter 15 - The Business of Slavery

The History Cooperative | Conference Proceedings | Seascapes, Littoral Cultures, and Trans-Oceanic Exchanges | A WORK OF COMPASSION? Dutch slavery and slave trade in the Indian Ocean in the seventeenth century

Slavery in America

http://www.antislavery.org/includes/documents/cm_docs/2008/c/cocoa_report_2004.pdf

Would you like to see what D. McKay and S. Kimball had to say?

“So long as men are corrupt and revel in sewer filth, entertainers will sell them what they want. Laws may be passed, arrests may be made, lawyers may argue, courts may sentence … men of corrupt minds, but pornography and … insults to decency will never cease until men have cleansed their minds.

“When … [man] is sick and tired of being drowned in filth, … he will not pay for that filth and its source will dry up.

“Hence it is obvious,” he continued, “that to remain clean and worthy, one must stay positively and conclusively away from the devil’s territory, avoiding the least approach toward evil. Satan leaves his fingerprints.” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969, pp. 229, 232.)

S. Kimball

We must be watchful against the “evils and designs of conspiring men.”

One of the most significant statements in the Doctrine and Covenants, one which carries with it evidence of the inspiration of the Prophet Joseph Smith, is found in the 89th Section … :

“In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation …” (D&C 89:4.)

“Evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men. …” The purport of that impressed me in the twenties, and the thirties of [the 20th] century. I just ask you … to recall the methods employed by certain tobacco interests to induce women to smoke cigarettes.

You remember how insidiously they launched their plan. First, by saying that it would reduce weight. They had a slogan: “Take a cigarette instead of a sweet.”

Later, some of us who like the theatre, noticed that they would have a young lady light the gentleman’s cigarette. Following this a woman’s hand would be shown on billboards lighting or taking a cigarette. A year or two passed and soon they were brazen enough to show the lady on the screen or on the billboard smoking the cigarette. …

I may be wrong, but I thought I saw an indication recently that conspiring men now have evil designs upon our youth. Keep your eyes and ears open. 9

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: DavidO. McKay Chapter 11: Living the Word of Wisdom

Sorry to make your life difficult. Not easy is it when confronted with the temporal world. As the Lord said.

D&C 29:32

32aFirst bspiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—

I'm sure you still will reject as absurd, but that's okay your entitled to your free will of what you want to accept. Just quit implying my view is ridiculous just because you can't see or accept my POV.

PAU ( Hawaiian for finished) with discussion except to future post on kava letter.

Enjoy your research! Aloha

Edited July 28, 2011 by Sachi001

[Suzie]

I have the Stake Ex Sec looking up that letter as I spoke to him wed night. He will get back to me, but they assurred me that I'm not dreaming. I will post it when it becomes available.

Thanks. I am curious about it since I am not familiar with the drink at all therefore I wonder if the alleged prohibition you made mention of deals with the parties surrounded Kava (as quoted on this thread) rather than the drink in itself being harmful to the body.

[FunkyTown]

So I'm going to guess that BYU-Hawaii's honor code is a pretty specific discussion on Kava:

Over the years we have observed an increase in problems resulting from the misuse of kava (awa, yaqona) for social clubbing or party drinking. There has been chronic absenteeism from classes and work, with decreased church activity and marital infidelity, thus causing students to drop out of school. We are especially grieved when men neglect their families causing undue stress and unhappiness in the homes. In light of all these concerns, kava clubbing or party drinking is now a violation of the university honor code.

This regulation should not be construed as anti-culture, for kava has its vital place in the ceremonies and culture of Polynesia. But there is not doubt in our mind, that there is a vast difference between the ceremonial drinking of kava (such as in greeting a high ranking chief, bestowing a chiefly title, etc.) and the party drinking of kava. We believe this action will bring us in harmony with the teaching and principle of the Gospel.

So ceremonial drinking of Kava is fine. Drinking Kava in a clubbing and partying atmosphere? Not fine.

This suggests that Kava is an appropriate herb to use for various reasons, but its abuse is clearly an abuse of the Word of Wisdom. As a herb that relaxes and helps aid in restful sleep, I suspect using it in that regard is fine. It also appears to be fine for weddings and the like, but not every-day things.

Interesting! I'd never heard of Kava before this. Reading about it made me research - Apparently, President David O. McKay partook of it on the islands as a missionary being greeted, as did President Kimball.