Thoughts on modesty


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Recently I found myself thinking upon the subject of modesty and feeling saddened.

Daughters of God are so beautiful. In my eye they really are God's finest creations. Yet sadly I see more and more of them dressing immodestly. Please, please don't. Why? Why dress immodest? I conclude that for the most part women simply do not understand the effect it has on men. They so seldom come across righteous men that most don't know how such men feel about immodesty. And that's righteous men. I also conclude that for the most part women simply don't understand the effect such attire (or rather lack thereof) has on worldly men. If they did, I think most of them wouldn't dress so.

I don't find it appealing. Often I end up simply not looking in their direction yet sometimes you simply can't ignore it. I don't want to see it. I wish they'd cover up.

The apostle Hugh B. Brown wrote the following in his book “You and your marriage” (p. 63)

"A tourist mother and daughter were recently seen in a shoe store, both in short shorts. They sat down and waited to be served. There were two available male clerks but neither appeared to notice them. The manager also observed the waiting females and allowed them to leave the store without being served. He commended his clerks for having the modesty which the women lacked."

I've been told that it isn't right to simply ignore immodest women but I find myself avoiding looking at them all the same. Am I not showing respect by showing the modesty they lack and giving them the privacy they deserve? I think so but I realize that others disagree.

There are parts of the body which are sacred and private. There are portions that the Lord has decreed should be covered. Perhaps women feel it necessary to reveal such in order to attract a man yet I don't think they realize what type of man they attract.

Have we not been told by prophets that it is immodest to wear low necklines and bare shoulders? That it's immodest to wear form revealing tight clothing? Haven't we been given guidelines as to the length of hems and shorts?

What of bathing suits? Why are so many Latter Day Saint women, who should know better, so determined to wear the fashions of the world when it comes to bathing suits? Are they simply not able to afford or find a better alternatives? Can't we make a style of our own? Wouldn't you prefer to wear something like this instead? Don't you find it much more modest? Personally, I find it a whole lot more attractive and appealing.

As a man, I want someone who is chaste. Someone modest in dress. Someone virtuous. I'm trying to be so myself. I have jeans that I feel perhaps are too tight and I worry about that even as I know I don't have money to change them. I have a shirt without sleeves but since becoming endowed I choose not longer to wear it or I wear something underneath it first.

I've noticed that endowed women are more modest then their non-endowed sisters. Is a physical reminder that powerful? Is being modest that difficult to define? I wish more non-endowed sisters would willingly wear temple standards regardless of whether or not they've had the opportunity to make the covenants. It makes me me really sad to see all these beautiful daughters of Zion whose attire isn't up to LDS standards let alone Temple standards.

Page 63-64 also has the following quote from Hugh B. Brown:

"We wonder if our girls know what kind of females they imitate when they immodestly expose their bodies to public view because it may be fashionable. They should know of the lewd, sinister, and sensuous designs of such females in these disgusting displays. If they knew the source of some modern fashions, no sensible, self-respecting girl would mimic their authors or risk the implications and deductions of immodest exposure and conduct.

Also, if young women know how good men, young and old, react to such exposures, we doubt if they would be so foolish and naive. The immodest revealing of the female form causes the lewd to leer and lust, decent men to blush and protest, while brothers and fathers are embarrassed, offended, and alarmed. Even lewd men have a certain disgust for nude women.

The exposing of the uncovered body to public view is like a "for sale" notice indicating "cheap, shopworn, or marked-down goods." In a mercantile establishment, such merchandise generally invites handling and is cheapened and soiled thereby.

Decent men looking for wives and choosing mothers for their children, reject the girls who make a public display of their bodies. they want wives who will become exemplars to their own daughters, and they know immodesty is the first step towards unchastity. Modestly indicates moral integrity which is respected by decent people everywhere. All true gentlemen honor and revere modest virgins and saintly mothers."

I wish I could tell girls that they are beautiful but that they don't need to dress immodest. That men will love them more and respect them more for dressing modestly. That there are good men out there who appreciate and value modesty. I tried a friend such once and was so discouraged by the scathing response and vile accusations against my character that I don't know if I'll ever do so again. I don't know how to word it in a way that would be received and I wish I did. If I but knew how, I'd be happy to say it. I guess I'll have to wait till I'm an old harmless man first.

-Note- Originally I wrote this while I was frustrated and my tone did not come across very well. I received a LOT of slack for it as you'll see below. I also offended many people and I'm sorry for that. I've rewritten it in hopes that my words will bring less... contention and vehement opposition. -End Note-

-Note- One response to this indicated that they saw a lack of modesty and humility in my statement. I've pondered my reason for posting this and have come to the conclusion that she was right. I was hoping that someone would validate my feelings and seeking for the esteem of the saints. I didn't write it with the right intent and I don't see the charity. I don't want to write for such reasons and to change I start by confessing and apologizing. I've also rewritten what I rewrote with such intents in mind. Please forgive me for I too am imperfect and in need of people who will be patient while I grow.-End Note-

Edited by Martain
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Wow. Perhaps rather than "ignoring them and acting like they're not there" or seeing them as "marked-down goods" you should give ALL women the respect they deserve as Daughters of God, no matter how they might dress?

Immodesty will always be out there. You can have every LDS woman in the world dressing modestly, and you're *still* going to have to deal with looking (or "ignoring" ) women who are dressed immodestly.

So show some respect for ALL women, and you might just encourage them to gain some respect for themselves.

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If it's a part of your body you'd be uncomfortable with a stranger coming up and touching... then why reveal it?

Quite frankly I, as a man, happily show my face, a stranger coming up and touching my face would make me uncomfortable. I'm not sure that's a reliable metric to use for, "Is it okay to have this exposed?"

Wow. Perhaps rather than "ignoring them and acting like they're not there" or seeing them as "marked-down goods" you should give ALL women the respect they deserve as Daughters of God, no matter how they might dress?

While ignoring them and acting like they're not there is going overboard (and I understand there is a vibe from the OP you are reacting to) I will say that if a woman is dressed such that I am uncomfortable looking at her I'll avert my gaze and probably avoid interacting with her if possible because interacting with someone in most circumstances involves looking at them. And I'd expect the reverse to apply, if I was dressed immodestly and a woman found me uncomfortable to look at I'd find the same reaction to be reasonable.

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Why? Why?! Why dress immodest? Do women not understand the effect it has on men? Do they not understand how shameful it is and how uncomfortable it makes righteous men? And that's righteous men. Do they understand the effect such attire (or rather lack thereof) has on worldly men?

I'm not entirely sure why I'm challenging this. I would like to issue an opposite challenge. Something along the lines of "Men, let's learn to control our impulses and thoughts. Women aren't responsible for our cleanliness and salvation. We can learn to control ourselves."

I always find it interesting when nudists/naturists talk about how non-sexual the nude body can be. In some cultures in Africa, women frequently go topless. This suggests to me that much of this "shame" and "discomfort" that you are expressing is culture conditioned. Occasionally I will walk in on my wife as she's getting out of the shower. I find that I am perfectly capable of shaving, brushing my teeth, etc. while she towels off without it turning into something sexual (sometimes it's fun when it does turn into something sexual, though). I guess the idea is that we, as men, have the ability to control ourselves. Bare shoulders, or other immodest attire does not force us to view that person or women in general as sex objects.

It feels kind of funny, as if I'm promoting immodesty. I'm not. I like to see my wife and daughters dress modestly. It just kind of bothers me when we make it seem like women are supposed to be these non-sexual beings, protectors of men's chastity, because men cannot control themselves if they see a little too much skin.

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Shame on you Martain! To suggest that endowed women are more appealing then non! Heard about the prostitute washing Jesus' feet? You have a very narrow point of view. This reminds me of my ex boyfriend. His mom would get mad at me when I wore a skirt about my knees opposed to covering them (in the summer when it was hot), while her son was allowed to walk around shirtless and didn't even see this as immodest! Did you know that these girls actually have low self esteem, that they feel bad wearing those clothes but do it to get attention, then when they do they feel worse because its the wrong kind of attention? Maybe you should not judge so much, it is hard for a girl to try and look attractive while modest when there are girls walking around half naked to compete with, let alone with peter priesthoods scrutinizing their every outfit choice! :(

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I'm sorry, I've offended many people it seems in the expressing of my mind.

Wow. Perhaps rather than "ignoring them and acting like they're not there" or seeing them as "marked-down goods" you should give ALL women the respect they deserve as Daughters of God, no matter how they might dress?

I'm sorry I offended you Jenamarie. It is not my intent and I hope you'll forgive me. I agree with giving all women the respect they deserve. To me, by avoiding looking at them, I'm giving them the respect they may lack for themselves.

"A tourist mother and daughter were recently seen in a shoe store, both in short shorts. They sat down and waited to be served. There were two available male clerks but neither appeared to notice them. The manager also observed the waiting females and allowed them to leave the store without being served. He commended his clerks for having the modesty which the women lacked." (Hugh B Brown, You and your marriage p. 63)

Immodesty will always be out there. You can have every LDS woman in the world dressing modestly, and you're *still* going to have to deal with looking (or "ignoring" ) women who are dressed immodestly.

So show some respect for ALL women, and you might just encourage them to gain some respect for themselves.

How would you prefer I handle such a situation? Frank appraisal of their form and figure? Perhaps sizing them up? Staring?

They are there and I know that but I don't have to choose to enable such behavior do I? I can choose not to react in such a manner that would cause a women to think that immodesty is good right?

It also seems like you were offended by my quote. Yes the it was a book and not official doctrine of the church yet it was written by a prophet of God for the benefit of the saints. I'm sorry you reacted the way you did.

Quite frankly I, as a man, happily show my face, a stranger coming up and touching my face would make me uncomfortable. I'm not sure that's a reliable metric to use for, "Is it okay to have this exposed?"

You're right Dravin. However I don't think you would feel violated by such either. Any area of the body where you would feel thus violated, perhaps the metric would apply best there?

I'm not entirely sure why I'm challenging this. I would like to issue an opposite challenge. Something along the lines of "Men, let's learn to control our impulses and thoughts. Women aren't responsible for our cleanliness and salvation. We can learn to control ourselves."

I agree. I can control my impulses and thoughts pretty well but that doesn't mean I like seeing immodesty any less. In fact, the more I am able to control my thoughts and impulses, the less I like immodesty.

This suggests to me that much of this "shame" and "discomfort" that you are expressing is culture conditioned.

The shame I feel for them and isn't attributed to any unworthy thoughts in my own mind. Perhaps my discomfort is indeed culture conditioned but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I was once listening to a talk by one of our Latter day Prophets. He indicated that sleeveless shirts and gowns were an abomination in the sight of the Lord.

It shocked me. "Really?" I prayed. "An abomination?" The spirit witnessed to me on that day that it is indeed abominable in His sight.

I guess the idea is that we, as men, have the ability to control ourselves. Bare shoulders, or other immodest attire does not force us to view that person or women in general as sex objects.

I agree. I do control myself. If my sister were to dress immodestly, I wouldn't see her as a sex object yet I would still remain ashamed and uncomfortable in her presence.

Shame on you Martain! To suggest that endowed women are more appealing then non!

I... don't understand why you refute me on this. Endowed women are more modest. They have the added benefit of the garment which indicate what parts of the body should remain covered. Perhaps others differ in what they find appealing. Modesty... is appealing to me. Modest IS the hottest.

Say an unendowed daughter of God none the less wears temple standards. To me, they're that much MORE appealing. It takes courage to be modest. A woman who values modesty that much is very desirable.

Heard about the prostitute washing Jesus' feet? You have a very narrow point of view.

No. I have not. I know there was woman who washed his feet but she wasn't a prostitute. She may have committed sins in the past but she had long since repented of them and been washed clean through the atonement of Christ. She was not a prostitute.

There is a difference between a person and their sin. One is who they are and and another is what they've done. One can love a person yet still hate and abhor the sin. One can respect a daughter of God and yet still hate and abhor their immodesty and be offended by it.

This reminds me of my ex boyfriend. His mom would get mad at me when I wore a skirt about my knees opposed to covering them (in the summer when it was hot), while her son was allowed to walk around shirtless and didn't even see this as immodest!

I hold myself to the same standard I set. When I went through the temple I made a covenant to be chaste. I received a garment and instructions on how to wear it. Outside of situations where it isn't reasonable to wear, I am expected to always wear it. This means I don't go jogging down main street topless. This means I don't wear sleeveless shirts. Outside of swimming... is there a (public) situation where the garment can't be reasonably worn? Immodesty is immodesty regardless of whether your male or female.

Did you know that these girls actually have low self esteem, that they feel bad wearing those clothes but do it to get attention, then when they do they feel worse because its the wrong kind of attention?

I'm sorry but I disagree. While it's true that many do indeed have low self esteem and feel bad wearing those clothes. Many do not. Many don't even bat an eye at it. It's sad. Really sad. Sin really is sad isn't it?

Is self esteem an emotion or an action? Or both? If one wore modest clothing, would this not increase her self esteem as she shows actions to God that she values herself? I think her self esteem would indeed rise.

It's really sad that a women will wear such clothes to get attention. While some realize what type of attention they're receiving and sinfully want it, I agree that many do not. They're lonely. Sin never was happiness.

Men play a part in this whole situation. The majority enable and encourage such behavior. Lacking righteous chaste men, who else is there to impress? If more women truly knew the effect such dress had on good men... I feel most would not dress that way.

Maybe you should not judge so much, it is hard for a girl to try and look attractive while modest when there are girls walking around half naked to compete with, let alone with peter priesthoods scrutinizing their every outfit choice! :(

The best way to compete with immodesty is by being completely modest. You don't want the attention of those who are attracted to immodest women.

I've never heard of the phrase 'peter priesthoods' but I expect you're referring to me. Please understand I'm not scrutinizing your every outfit choice.

Women compare themselves to other women. They compete with each other for looks, for fashion, for appearance. Guys don't do that. We really don't compare our visual appearance or compete with each other in that way (yes there are exceptions heh).

I have personal guidelines as to what I consider modest and what I consider immodest. It takes little time at all to tell the difference and absolutely no scrutinizing what so ever.

If you competed with the women half naked, what type of man are you competing for?

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"Immodesty is immodesty regardless of whether your male or female."

Wrong. Immodesty is completely subjective. A "modest" Mormon woman with loose-fitting clothing that completely covered her garments would be seen as walking pornography in some parts of the world.

Should women have to wear clothing to accommodate the men who find ankles and wrists too sexual?

"However I don't think you would feel violated by such either."

A person shouldn't feel violated by a random stranger putting their hands all over their face? What? If some guy I didn't know so much as puts a finger on my cheek i'm breaking it off. A stranger doesn't need to touch me, for any reason at any time. It's inappropriate and it IS a violation, period.

Modesty is a lot more than the cloth you choose to put on your skin. It's your attitude as well, and I don't find much modesty in the attitude of your original post. You are giving the impression that women are only deserving of kindness and respect if they meet your standards, and you seem to think that YOUR standards are the only ones worth observing. Which isn't a very humble, reticent or MODEST point of view.

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Because you did not at all understand my post, I will summarize for you what I was trying to say and hopefully you have heard of this one before: let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Your post has offended many and rightfully so. Let me ask you this- if an investigator young woman came to your ward wearing what she though was her nicest church dress which was low cut and sleeveless would you be there with a welcoming handshake and hello or ignore her? (I think you have already answered this yourself.)

I hope in future you take everyone's comments to heart and treat every woman- from temple endowed to gogo dancer like who they are- daughters of our heavenly father.

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"Immodesty is immodesty regardless of whether your male or female."

Wrong. Immodesty is completely subjective. A "modest" Mormon woman with loose-fitting clothing that completely covered her garments would be seen as walking pornography in some parts of the world.

It seems I've offended every women that has read my post. Not a single one has had positive words to offer. I'm sorry we disagree.

Modesty is not subjective so why should immodesty be? If I base my perception of immodesty upon the revealed word's of prophets, am I to say that I'm being subjective? Why should I care what some part of the world considers modest? Shall I not instead care what God considers modest.

A person shouldn't feel violated by a random stranger putting their hands all over their face? What? If some guy I didn't know so much as puts a finger on my cheek i'm breaking it off. A stranger doesn't need to touch me, for any reason at any time. It's inappropriate and it IS a violation, period.

If a baby or child comes up and puts their hands on my face, I won't feel offended in the slightest. If a grown person did so, depending on the area, I would indeed feel offended but I wouldn't feel sexually violated.

Why should a woman let a man touch her with his eyes in places she would feel sexually sullied if he were to touch her with his hands?

You seem to take exception at my statements. I'm sorry. It seems my opinions are very unpopular.

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Because you did not at all understand my post, I will summarize for you what I was trying to say and hopefully you have heard of this one before: let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Your post has offended many and rightfully so. Let me ask you this- if an investigator young woman came to your ward wearing what she though was her nicest church dress which was low cut and sleeveless would you be there with a welcoming handshake and hello or ignore her? (I think you have already answered this yourself.)

I hope in future you take everyone's comments to heart and treat every woman- from temple endowed to gogo dancer like who they are- daughters of our heavenly father.

Now THAT... thank you. It seems a lot of what we are all disagreeing with and finding offense against is the presentation. When you present it in this manner, I understand your point and it gives me food for thought. Thank you for caring to put it in a polite and non-contentious manner. I should have posted what I said while I was calm and not used it as a way to vent my frustration.

Thank you again.

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As to the "What would you have me do?" question, when faced with an immodestly dressed woman: Most women, in my experience, prefer to be looked in the eye. ;)

Thank you, excellent advice =)

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I rewrote what I had originally written. I hope that I'm able to express my feelings and opinions better without offending so many people. Thank you for your responses~

Martain

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If it makes you feel any better, i read your original post and was not offended in the least. I could tell you were venting a bit and i think you have an understandable and proper attitude.

Here's one of my favorite articles on modesty from Elder Hales:

Modesty: Reverence for the Lord - Ensign Aug. 2008

Some Latter-day Saints may feel that modesty is a tradition of the Church or that it has evolved from conservative, puritanical behavior. Modesty is not just cultural. Modesty is a gospel principle that applies to people of all cultures and ages. In fact, modesty is fundamental to being worthy of the Spirit. To be modest is to be humble, and being humble invites the Spirit to be with us.

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Connie? Thank you for that and for the link to the talk. I really enjoyed it too and thought I'd share one of the quotes from it that I liked.

"When we dress for attention, we are not inviting the Spirit to be with us. We act differently when we are dressed for the world’s attention. Moreover, what we wear will influence the behavior of others toward us."

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Connie? Thank you for that and for the link to the talk. I really enjoyed it too and thought I'd share one of the quotes from it that I liked.

"When we dress for attention, we are not inviting the Spirit to be with us. We act differently when we are dressed for the world’s attention. Moreover, what we wear will influence the behavior of others toward us."

Ya know, quotes like this always rub me the wrong way. While I can certainly understand that the bolded quote above is true in some instances, to me it smacks of the "If she hadn't worn that, then [insert inappropriate sexual advance of varying degrees of sevarity] probably wouldn't have happened!"

While I'm all for modesty as a way of respecting one's body and showing reverence towards the Lord, I really think it does women (and men) a *dis*service when we tie the way a woman is treated to the way she dresses.

It reminds me of a PSA ad (that I'm *trying* to find now on YouTube, but no luck so far), showing a couple of girlfriends out shopping before a date, and one girl holding up two different shimmery skirts and asking "Which one should I wear so I can be sexually assaulted tonight?" and her girlfriend says "Oh, definitely the blue one!"

Should women dress modestly? Yes, just as much as men should dress modestly (and modestly is about a lot more than sexuality). And, no matter how EITHER gender is dressed, we need to treat eachother with a basic level of respect.

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I agree that we should treat other people with respect regardless of how they are dressed.

I'm wondering if perhaps I simply have a different way of doing so. In my eye, I'm respecting someone when I choose not to look at immodesty. I'm giving them the privacy they lack and in doing so, showing respect for the daughter (or son) of God they are.

You gave me a good example of when my logic doesn't exactly work, perhaps you can provide one again for what you said above. To me, your saying "if she hadn't worn that..." is true.

If she hadn't, would she have attracted the attention of that type of guy? Is there a difference for guys? Won't a guy who is extreme in appearance or immodest in dress attract different attention than he otherwise would?

D&C 88:40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

Modesty will cleave to modesty and chastity to chastity. Immodesty will attract the immodest and a lack of chastity will attract those who are unchaste.

"What we wear will influence other's behavior towards us"

This just rings true to me. I understand you do not like it, but I don't see a way around it. Even the behavior of the Holy Ghost is influenced by what we wear.

I'm glad that what I wear will influence other's behaviors towards me. There is a type of attention that I don't want to attract and this teaches me how to avoid it.

I'm glad because it teaches me how I can better invite the Spirit to be in my life. I'm glad because I want to attract a modest and chaste daughter of God and this principle teaches me how. By being chaste and modest myself, I will draw unto me those who likewise are. To me, it's wonderful.

Yes, I do indeed like that quote. Thank you again Connie for the link. It's at moments like this where I'm also grateful for Latter Day Prophets who can council, teach and guide us on the pathway back home.

They say few are the ones that find it and enter in. I've found it, we have it, and I'm walking in. There is no other path worth pursuing and I will walk none other than this line.

It's true. It's all true. God really lives and really loves us. He really knows our names and heart. He really does hear our prayers and really does want to bless us. Thank God for the restoration of the Gospel, for Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. It's true, I know it's true, and it brings me more happiness and joy that I would have ever imagined. Pure... Simple... Sublime... Inspired...Truth.

~~~~Hosanna Hosanna to God and the Lamb! Let Glory to them in the highest be given, hence forth and forever, Amen and Amen.~~~~

Edited by Martain
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As with a couple others, mainly what I disagree with you on is your presentation... since this has already been addressed though and you are clearly now aware of how that has affected the comments, I will move on.

Modesty is very important, but it is often under-emphasized when taught to young women by their parents and even their church leaders, and it is also HARD. Not necessarily because women want to dress immodestly, but because modest, comfortable, and appealing clothing can be difficult to find, especially if one has a tight budget. We recently had a thread on here about modest swim wear, and many of us (including myself) admitted to having worn immodest swimsuits simply because we could not find/afford something modest.

Some women just don't care about being modest as much as they should care, but I think these women are actually few and far between. I think most women who dress immodestly do so because they are doing the best they can and are just having difficulty meeting up to the standard. And endowed women are typically more modest, I think, because they actually have a physical guideline. Now matter how much we know where we are supposed to draw the line, without that physical reminder we sometimes buy clothing that would not cover our garments. Then, when that sister gets her endowment, she realizes just how immodest her wardrobe actually is.

Looking good helps you feel good. Yes, it is very possible to look good and still be modest, but it is becoming increasingly difficult with the clothing designs sold by our society today. So, many many times, we find ourselves making compromises on our modesty because it is easier. Does that make it right? Of course not. However, understanding the difficulties can help one be more compassionate towards those who are not dressing modestly.

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I agree that we should treat other people with respect regardless of how they are dressed.

I'm wondering if perhaps I simply have a different way of doing so. In my eye, I'm respecting someone when I choose not to look at immodesty. I'm giving them the privacy they lack and in doing so, showing respect for the daughter (or son) of God they are.

You gave me a good example of when my logic doesn't exactly work, perhaps you can provide one again for what you said above. To me, your saying "if she hadn't worn that..." is true.

If she hadn't, would she have attracted the attention of that type of guy? Is there a difference for guys? Won't a guy who is extreme in appearance or immodest in dress attract different attention than he otherwise would?

D&C 88:40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

Modesty will cleave to modesty and chastity to chastity. Immodesty will attract the immodest and a lack of chastity will attract those who are unchaste.

"What we wear will influence other's behavior towards us"

This just rings true to me. I understand you do not like it, but I don't see a way around it. Even the behavior of the Holy Ghost is influenced by what we wear.

I'm glad that what I wear will influence other's behaviors towards me. There is a type of attention that I don't want to attract and this teaches me how to avoid it.I'm glad because it teaches me how I can better invite the Spirit to be in my life. I'm glad because I want to attract a modest and chaste daughter of God and this principle teaches me how. By being chaste and modest myself, I will draw unto me those who likewise are. To me, it's wonderful.

Yes, I do indeed like that quote. Thank you again Connie for the link. It's at moments like this where I'm also grateful for Latter Day Prophets who can council, teach and guide us on the pathway back home.

They say few are the ones that find it and enter in. I've found it, we have it, and I'm walking in. There is no other path worth pursuing and I will walk none other than this line.

It's true. It's all true. God really lives and really loves us. He really knows our names and heart. He really does hear our prayers and really does want to bless us. Thank God for the restoration of the Gospel, for Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. It's true, I know it's true, and it brings me more happiness and joy that I would have ever imagined. Pure... Simple... Sublime... Inspired...Truth.

~~~~Hosanna Hosanna to God and the Lamb! Let Glory to them in the highest be given, hence forth and forever, Amen and Amen.~~~~

The problem with the bolded is that there are ways people shouldn't be treated no matter what they are wearing, and yet they happen. For example: a woman DOES NOT decrease her chances of being raped by dressing modestly. A woman DOES NOT CAUSE a man to oggle her breasts because she's wearing a low-cut shirt. A man doesn't CHOOSE to have a woman whistle at him because he's walking around with his shirt off. It is the CHOICE of the rapist, the CHOICE of the oggler, the CHOICE of the whistling woman to behave towards the immodestly dressed person in such a way. THEY cause it, not the immodestly dressed person. So while people may CHOOSE to treat someone in a disrespectful way, and feel justified in doing so because of the way that person dresses, the sin is on THEM. We DO NOT control another person's agency.

I see this line of thinking (if I don't dress this way, I won't attract these types of people!) as leading down an unhealthy path, particularly for those who HAVE had unchaste persons "attracted" to them, even when they were dressed modestly (I've been cat-called while running an errand on my way to the Temple!). People who do such things don't pick their victims because of how they're dressed, they pick them by how easy they are to access (a close relative, a woman in an empty parking lot, a child walking down an empty street, etc.) To say that the way we dress can help us avoid these types of situations can heap all sorts of unnecessary guilt upon these people (if I hadn't worn that skirt he wouldn't have touched me! if I hadn't worn that jacket he wouldn't have cat-called me!), and give those who do dress modestly a false sense of security that "those people" won't target them because they're not dressed "sexy".

I don't disagree with your desire to attract a daughter of God who shares your values. They're values I, too, share, and my husband does also. Indeed, the Gospel is wonderful! But we can sometimes take Gospel Principles and take them down a road they aren't meant to go down, and do great (though unintended) harm to our Brothers and Sisters.

Edited by Jenamarie
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If dressing modestly protects women from lechers, how is it that a sleeping, 80-year-old grandmother in my neighborhood was sexually assaulted?

Your behavior and strident framing of the issue may be causing a disconnect between the message you intend to send (I respect you too much to look at you when you're not all covered up), and the message received (He's ignoring me/judging me/finding me unworthy of communication).

Even the behavior of the Holy Ghost is influenced by what we wear.

I think the Holy Ghost is more influenced by what's on our inside...rather, the Holy Ghost remains the same but it's we who are able to tune in or not, based on what's going on in our hearts.
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This topic is a dead horse, surely.

I don't believe the Holy Ghost turns a blind eye to our brothers and sisters in third world countries that wear near to nothing on a daily basis. It's not immodest, it's their lifestyle. Have you not seen the Discovery or History channel? I would not be surprised if some of these tribes (where nudity is common) that there is less crime within them than what goes on in our own neighbourhoods and communities of clothed people.

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a woman DOES NOT decrease her chances of being raped by dressing modestly.

Disagree strongly. Predators look for targets. Dressing immodestly attracts attention.

I wonder - who would argue with this:

How to minimize your chances of being robbed in public:

1. Avoid dangerous places where people get robbed.

2. Be aware of your surroundings - spot and avoid risky situations and people.

3. Don't flash bling - keep your expensive stuff locked in your car, or hidden from view in a bag or wallet. Leave the expensive or flashy jewlery behind.

Now, let's reword some of Jenmarie's post with this in mind:

A [victim] DOES NOT CAUSE a [robber] to [rob] because she's [flashing a wad of cash and ignroing her surroundings. A [victim] doesn't CHOOSE to [get beaten] because he's walking around [in a blind alley wearing a shirt with an offensive slogan]. It is the CHOICE of the [robber], the CHOICE of the [violent punk] to behave towards the person in such a way. THEY cause it, not the [victim]. So while people may CHOOSE to [rob or beat] someone in a disrespectful way, and feel justified in doing so because of the [big honkin target the victim painted on themselves], the sin is on THEM. We DO NOT control another person's agency.

I suppose that I can agree with everything there - except that by following the line of reasoning ends up getting you robbed or beaten. And getting robbed or beaten isn't fun.

To say that the way we dress can help us avoid these types of situations can heap all sorts of unnecessary guilt upon these people (if I hadn't worn that skirt he wouldn't have touched me! if I hadn't worn that jacket he wouldn't have cat-called me!), and give those who do dress modestly a false sense of security that "those people" won't target them because they're not dressed "sexy".

I'd rather spend energy avoiding the bad thing in the first place than avoiding guilt. There's a problem walking down dark alleys with your head buried in your six hundred dollar iPad. After you get jacked, you ought to realize how your actions helped made you a target - it will help you not be a target in the future. Do you bear the sin of the robber? No - the robber bears the sin of the robber. The guy with his head in his iPad, only bears the sin of being dumb or clueless. No, that sin didn't justify the robber. It just enabled the robber.

Really - the world is full of predators. Refusing to take steps to protect yourself from them, because if they attack you it's their sin not yours, seems to be not the brightest choice.

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I learned a thing I'd like to share. This is about how to show respect for women if what they are wearing catches (not your eye exactly - your lust?). I don't know if other males are this way, my guess is that many are, but many are not. I find that if I see a lot of skin (like through the corner of my eye), the first impulse is to look.

So as I turn my head I realize what kind of "looking" i'm about to do. So I very quickly find something nice about the woman that I would feel ok telling do God. Like "that color looks good on her, or I like her hair" Something non-sexual.

then having said that in my mind, I get back to whatever I was doing and don't look at her more.

This is when I'm in a public place and the women I'm talking about are ones I don't know.

This might seem silly, but the thing is that forming this new habit breaks the old one in such a way that it gives me a moment of time to look away or whatever is right to do. Yes, I had that choice in the first place, but having this moment (longer than at first), gives me a bit more time to make a conscious. decision.

This is an idea that was taught to me by some friends a few years ago. We were all trying to make changes in our lives, one of which for me was to no longer look at women with intent to be lustful.

Since then I have found that I don't do it very often now. I don't even turn my head - which is what I think I'm supposed to be aiming for.

my point is that there are more options of how to respond to immodesty than what has been listed in the OP.

Here is another example:

There was a woman at my job (a former job that I left not long ago) whom we all found very attractive.

once in awhile she would wear something that was revealing, and seemed to say "please look" I don't know if that was her intention, but a male coworker and I set up a thing where we could tell each other. Once I said to him "so and so has an interesting top on - but I'm not going to look" we found that telling someone cut out the preoccupation of looking.

Respect in one's heart for women makes the rest a lot easier.

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Thank you Jenamarie, you've once again given me food for thought. So has everyone else. Thanks for the examples =).

This is definitely not a popular subject.

Modesty is very important, but it is often under-emphasized when taught to young women by their parents and even their church leaders, and it is also HARD.

Similar to how Connie had a talk she's been influenced by which she wanted to share, I want to share one that has heavily influenced me in the category of modesty. It really made me think and if you're looking for something to help emphasize modesty to young women... I volunteer this.

A Style of Our Own - Spencer W. Kimball

Your behavior and strident framing of the issue may be causing a disconnect between the message you intend to send (I respect you too much to look at you when you're not all covered up), and the message received (He's ignoring me/judging me/finding me unworthy of communication).

Thanks, I agree. What I wanted conveyed is not what was received. The learning curve can be painful.

Edited by Martain
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