Thoughts on modesty

[Guest]

Personally, I don't care to ever see my husband in a cute dress, makeup, or high heels.

[Dravin]

Read the whole tone of the post and not just one sentence.

It is a common assumption amongst a lot of men. You only have to watch certain tv shows and the subject comes up time and time again.

I did. Nowhere did he claim only woman should do such and he specifically said he would do such. Attributing to him the position that only woman need bother to 'look good' or however one wants to put it is contrary to what he actually typed (other people's comments when the subject comes up, or the content of TV shows: these things are not his comments). So you gonna let go of your straw-man or is the rhetoric simply too tasty? For what it's worth I think you are leaning in the right direction but he specifically didn't exclude himself as you are suggesting he does.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Dravin

[Vort]

I laughed out loud when I read this post.

How dare you!

How dare he what? Express his opinion?

Not sure how daring it is to express one's opinion on a discussion list. Seems sort of obvious, actually.

Why should it only be the woman's responsibility to take care of themselves? Why do women have to wear 'cute' dresses.

Now this I agree with. Why can't I wear cute dresses, too? Vastly unfair.

Women gain weight with child-bearing and sometimes they find it very hard to lose that weight - particularly when they have an unsupportive husband nagging them about gaining weight in the first place.

We all know that when a woman can't lose weight, it's her husband's fault. Or at least all us married men know this.

I cannot and will not conform to a MAN's perception of 'sexy'

I bet your husband is thrilled to know this.

Your emphasis of "any MAN's perception" implies that you will conform to a WOMAN's perception of 'sexy'. In my experience, this is actually true for many women; they "dress up" to impress other women, not other men. So you're not alone.

[kayne]

How so? Maybe the girl wearing the tank top and short shorts was just "saying" through her choice of apparel that "Wow, it's a hot day today." NOBODY EVER SAYS "Hey, I'd sure love to have non-consentual sexual contact today! Come and get it!"

clearly you have NO clue on how the male mind works. dressing like a hooker is like attracting moths to the fire. or attracting magnets. it really is torture and takes extreme will power to constantly resist. call humans weak but really dress over sexual all the time and everywhere....well you are asking to get raped. your dressing for it. not saying we need to go out in sweatshirts all the time but still a little modesty would do wonders to helping guys who are famous for being addicted to porn to begin with and helping guys to control urges. sure the first 50 might be resistable but at some point a poor unlucky sap is going to get raped. why? your mentally unstable for one and your lonely and horny and you are about the 100th person to dress like a girl from a porn video. you know wearing next to nothing while over exposing body parts.

deal with it the male mind functions this way. males that dont function this way are lieing sacks of garbage. theyve merely learned to keep this in check is all. i have it in check but id be lieing to tell you my brain does not operate this way.

girls really should realize dressing with minimal clothing is like pure constant torture especially if you arent voluntarly putting out and having sex. or if we dont want constant nightly sex with strangers. your asking either the chaste man to constantly fight temptation. or the unchaste but horny and lonely man to constantly fight to urge to drug you and rape you. thats exactly what the extremely immodest dressing girl does to the male mind.

I guess my issue with modesty is the fact that some women take it too far and don't want to make men "sin" by looking at them. Please. I know and see too many women that just don't take care of themselves. They gain weight, they wear sweats, no makeup, no perfume, no high heels, no cute dresses, etc. Please fix yourself up! You would look fantastic and its up to the man to control his thoughts. Geez, I want my wife to dress sexy ALL THE TIME if possible. haha Because I would do the exact same for her! (Of course I'm talking about an imaginary wife and the moment . . . haha).

there is this. you can look very attractive and modest. its entirely possible. but i too see it either dress like a hooker or go the polar opposite. sweatshirts constantly. not caring that they are very overweight. hair is never done. their appearance never looks even half way done. heck i doubt if teeth have been brushed. yes im aware its a double standard men can be fat girls cant get away with it near as much. but heck even a fat girl can look somewhat attractive if that girl takes the time to look attractive. it is funny in my ward there is one fat girl that takes no effort in looking attractive. and another that takes effort to try and look decent. the latter here i think is ya know TRYING. the former who doesnt and looks like she is crying the corner constantly with no outward attempt to look presentable and try and socialize well clearly achieves the fat overweight sobbing chick look she is going for.

there are skinny girls that go both ways too. ones that dont try and others that do. granted i dont try a lot too but i do make some effort but i am a guy once again the sad double standard of the world is at play here. but i at least try and be around people even when i prefer to tell them to go away. i admit i could do a lot better and by complaining i am a hyprocite so i do admit this.

yes i get it we should care about whats on the inside and i do agree. but some level of presentablity is needed. i sincerely hope these women that take it to this extreme opposite do what i hope the hooker dressing girls do. learn their lesson and change their ways. if not i hope they are both judged the same when the question comes well why werent you married or why were you divorced 5 times on the day of judgement. as one made it a point to attract every guy under the sun and the other made it a point to put no effort at all to attract anyone for anything. this can also include just having a positive attitude at least when thrown in social situations which being as anti social as i am can be a pain. but still these people could at least fake it. Heaven knows i am especially after school for 5 hours then going to say FHE....ARGH. but its that or have no life at all. so choices...

[Guest]

So do most men agree that a woman dressed in too little is asking to be raped, and the men who don't admit that are liars?

[jerome1232]

So do most men agree that a woman dressed in too little is asking to be raped, and the men who don't admit that are liars?

I would vote no. I could never agree with that. We guys are in control of our actions after all.

Some of my own thoughts -

I have never understood the mentality of "Women are not sexual objects, but should hint of sex in every possible way and to damnation with the pig that thinks of a women inappropriately" mentality I see so much today.

These statements are general statements..

Men respond to sexually visual stimuli much more than women

Men are more aggressive than women

When what a man see's is screaming sex and is pumping out powerful hormones which induce aggressiveness and sexual arousal, it certainly isn't helping matters much.

[Jenamarie]

clearly you have NO clue on how the male mind works. dressing like a hooker is like attracting moths to the fire. or attracting magnets. it really is torture and takes extreme will power to constantly resist. call humans weak but really dress over sexual all the time and everywhere....well you are asking to get raped. your dressing for it. not saying we need to go out in sweatshirts all the time but still a little modesty would do wonders to helping guys who are famous for being addicted to porn to begin with and helping guys to control urges. sure the first 50 might be resistable but at some point a poor unlucky sap is going to get raped. why? your mentally unstable for one and your lonely and horny and you are about the 100th person to dress like a girl from a porn video. you know wearing next to nothing while over exposing body parts.

deal with it the male mind functions this way. males that dont function this way are lieing sacks of garbage. theyve merely learned to keep this in check is all. i have it in check but id be lieing to tell you my brain does not operate this way.

Men who don't learn to keep it in check are the lying sacks of garbage. Rape starts in the mind of the rapist, not on the body of the victim.

[Guest Anonymity]

Now this I agree with. Why can't I wear cute dresses, too? Vastly unfair.

Love this. Dripping with sarcasm.

So do most men agree that a woman dressed in too little is asking to be raped, and the men who don't admit that are liars?

NOOOO!!! A woman never asks to be raped. Rape is about hate and control. It has very little to do with sex and that's the reason why I think sex-crimes are so terrible. They leave the victim alive to deal with the consequences. I have a couple of friends that are rape victims and they have had to go through hell and they still do and may still continue to do so even after they're dead (mentally and emotionally not in the eyes of God).

And WHY am I a liar? Because I can't admit I'm attracted to a girl who dresses, I don't know . . . like a skank? Can I even say that here? Anyways, sure I'm attracted to a girl like that, but I control my thoughts each and everyday. Just like Pres. Packer once said that we have to control our thoughts like they are on the stage of our mind. Its very true that is.

And I would never expect something of my wife that I wouldn't be willing to do myself. If I want her to always look nice for me, I will do my part to always look nice for her. If I have a job and she can't pay to get her nails done or buy makeup, I take it as part of my duty to give her the money to do so. I understand that as things happen in marriage with kids and all things get harder to do, but I'm willing to try so I ask for a wife that is willing to do the same.

And to both the men AND women who are dressing just to be "comfortable" all the time and not to impress and get out and be social, well, you're just fulfilling your own prophecy of never getting noticed or asked out.

Your emphasis of "any MAN's perception" implies that you will conform to a WOMAN's perception of 'sexy'. In my experience, this is actually true for many women; they "dress up" to impress other women, not other men. So you're not alone.

I have actually heard this before. And its very interesting to me. If my wife wants to dress to impress other women (instead of me) then I'll support it just so that she looks nice. But what do other women here think? Is this true?

[splash]

Personally I love modesty and have a testimony of it. I feel comfortable and great when I dress modest and feel most comfortable around others who dress modest as well. You don't have to dress like a nun to be modest. You can still look great, fashionable, attractive and wear clothes that fit while also being modest. You may have to be more creative to be modest (such as a long tank top underneath a shirt, etc.) and it may be harder to find modest clothes but I think it is well worth it. I think modesty only makes a person more attractive.

I agree with the Strength of Youth Pamphlet statements/standards of modesty and that is modesty to me. Also, if endowed I think proper garment coverage is important. There are various views of what modesty is.

I am married now but before I was married I never had any trouble getting dates or having boyfriends because I dresed modestly. I did not want to date any guys that did not value modesty as I did. Nor did I want to attract guys by dressing immodestly. That's just me though.

Some people feel there is a time and place for sexy clothes, etc.- after marriage and only with your spouse. After marriage some couples sometimes wear sexy clothes or lingerie when alone together. Other couples feel sexy clothes, etc. are not ever okay- not even in marriage when alone with spouse. Some couples feel dressing modestly no longer applies in public after marriage. Some couples think wearing sexy clothes is okay in public after marriage. And some people feel modesty is just plain not important- whether single or married.

I think its still very important to dress modestly when around other family members, friends/ in public after marriage too.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Pegasus_

[Guest Anonymity]

I think its still very important to dress modestly when around other family members, friends/ in public after marriage too.

I agree. But if I were to marry someone who thinks that it has to be the same in the bedroom I would go crazy. I want a woman way open and free with me. That's waaaay too conservative for my taste. That's probably the same type of people that believe sex is only to create babies, and that sooooo isn't true.

[splash]

So do most men agree that a woman dressed in too little is asking to be raped, and the men who don't admit that are liars?

I am not a man but I definitely don't agree with either of those two statements. A friend of mine was raped but she dressed modestly. I think rape is usually about power and control.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Pegasus_

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree with Jerome and Anonymity. The idea that a woman can "ask" to be raped is self-contradictory and, I think, dangerous.

On the other hand, I do see a vibe from some more militant feminists that women should be free to dress as skankily as they want and that there should be no repercussions. Any advice to dress "modestly" is interpreted as sexual repression.

Now, it may be true that in an ideal world a woman could take a stroll through downtown LA stark naked and not be assaulted. It is also true that in an ideal world I could pull a little red wagon full of gold bricks through downtown San Francisco and not get mugged.

But this is not an ideal world, and pointing out the natural laws of cause and effect in this fallen sphere is not repressive. It's just common sense.

[Martain]

So do most men agree that a woman dressed in too little is asking to be raped, and the men who don't admit that are liars?

Absolutely not.

I agree with a post above, they're not asking to be raped.

Instead I see it as they are seeking to be seen.

Some seek to be seen because they want to feel attractive. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and seek the attention hoping to feel attractive.

Some seek to be seen because they are lonely. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and hope that this will help them find someone who will love, marry, respect and commit to them.

Some seek to be seen because it makes them feel powerful. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and they feel a sense of power over being able to so dominate the minds of such men.

Some seek to be seen because they want money and gifts. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and the more likely a man is to give her things in order to try and get in to her bed.

Some seek to be seen because they want sexual intimacy. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and the more likely they will attract a man who will be intimate with them.

Some seek to be seen because they flirt with danger. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and seek an adrenaline rush from living on that edge of knowing that they are putting themselves in danger by possibly attracting men who would take what they want violently.

I won't argue weather or not there are any exceptions to the following statement but as a general rule, there are no women who dress to be raped. Any man who sees an immodest woman and thinks that she secretly wants such is hearing the lies of the adversary.

That being said, certain types of dress attract certain types of men. If you don't want to attract sharks then you should not pour blood into the water. There is a direct correlation to the amount of blood you pour into the water and the level of immodesty.

clearly you have NO clue on how the male mind works.

As a man I hope to be able to say that I have a very firm idea of how the male mind works =)

dressing like a hooker is like attracting moths to the fire .... girls really should realize dressing with minimal clothing is like pure constant torture .... your asking .... the unchaste but horny and lonely man to constantly fight to urge to drug you and rape you.

The problem with your statements is that they are incomplete truths.

Walk up to a man with a nice juicy freshly cooked steak and wave it under his nose. While the majority of men will find it appealing, the truth is not all will. Of those who do, the truth is some will want to eat it and others won't. Of those who want to eat it, the truth is some are willing to pay the purchase price and some aren't. Of those who aren't, the truth is that some will attempt to take the steak by force and others will simply go home and eat something else to assauge their hunger.

Of those who hunger for the steak but are not willing to purchase it, the majority will go and assauge their hunger in some other way. Few are those who would use force to take the object of their hunger.

The same can be said of men. Of those who lust after a woman, the majority will go and vent their lust in some other way. Few are those who would use force to take the object of their lust.

The truth is that the 'urge' you mention is not natural but rather aquired through sinful thoughts and behavior. The truth is that most men do not have such an urge and find it repulsive. I am glad that the number of such men are the minority.

dress over sexual all the time and everywhere....well you are asking to get raped

Part of your statement indicates that a man who is tempted to commit such acts will eventually reach a point where he can no longer resist temptation and then act upon it. The truth is that the more we sin the more we surrender our agency and ability to resist temptation to the adversary. It is indeed possible to reach a point through sin where there is no inclination to resist and you are fully in the adversary's power.

Yet it doesn't take immodesty at all to become the victim of rape. If a shark is hungry it's going to eat regardless as to whether or not it's prey is pouring blood into the water through immodesty. Yet that being said, the odds of attracting a shark do increase in proportion to the degree of blood poured into the water and if a woman doesn't want to be eaten in such a way it is advisable that she not dress in those ways which attract such men.

males that dont function this way are lieing sacks of garbage. theyve merely learned to keep this in check is all.

I don't function the way you indicate and I'm not a lying sack of garbage. In addition to my deeds being chaste, so is my mind. I am attracted to both beauty and modesty. I am mentally repulsed and saddened in increasing amounts proportionate to the degree of immodesty. That is not to say that the adversary does not periodically test my defences but I do not heed or entertain his whispers.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

[Argentina84]

To be honest I am very surprised at the level of offense here. The overall point is that we have been told to be modest. I commend you for encouraging women to do so. I think that many of the points made may seem a little off, but the concept is true. Why can't we just all agree that many women dress immodestly, it is hard for men to deal with, and that 1. men should encourage women to be modest rather than encourage immodesty and 2. women should not feel like they have to conform and be immodest to fit in.

I agree with this post, and with the OP. Modesty is a commandment and we have to obey. We should not even need an explanation for why we need to cover our bodies. The Lord has set His standard and He knows best.

[kayne]

Absolutely not.

I agree with a post above, they're not asking to be raped.

Instead I see it as they are seeking to be seen.

Some seek to be seen because they want to feel attractive. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and seek the attention hoping to feel attractive.

Some seek to be seen because they are lonely. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and hope that this will help them find someone who will love, marry, respect and commit to them.

Some seek to be seen because it makes them feel powerful. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and they feel a sense of power over being able to so dominate the minds of such men.

Some seek to be seen because they want money and gifts. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and the more likely a man is to give her things in order to try and get in to her bed.

Some seek to be seen because they want sexual intimacy. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and the more likely they will attract a man who will be intimate with them.

Some seek to be seen because they flirt with danger. They notice that the more immodestly they dress the more attention they receive and seek an adrenaline rush from living on that edge of knowing that they are putting themselves in danger by possibly attracting men who would take what they want violently.

I won't argue weather or not there are any exceptions to the following statement but as a general rule, there are no women who dress to be raped. Any man who sees an immodest woman and thinks that she secretly wants such is hearing the lies of the adversary.

That being said, certain types of dress attract certain types of men. If you don't want to attract sharks then you should not pour blood into the water. There is a direct correlation to the amount of blood you pour into the water and the level of immodesty.

As a man I hope to be able to say that I have a very firm idea of how the male mind works =)

The problem with your statements is that they are incomplete truths.

Walk up to a man with a nice juicy freshly cooked steak and wave it under his nose. While the majority of men will find it appealing, the truth is not all will. Of those who do, the truth is some will want to eat it and others won't. Of those who want to eat it, the truth is some are willing to pay the purchase price and some aren't. Of those who aren't, the truth is that some will attempt to take the steak by force and others will simply go home and eat something else to assauge their hunger.

Of those who hunger for the steak but are not willing to purchase it, the majority will go and assauge their hunger in some other way. Few are those who would use force to take the object of their hunger.

The same can be said of men. Of those who lust after a woman, the majority will go and vent their lust in some other way. Few are those who would use force to take the object of their lust.

The truth is that the 'urge' you mention is not natural but rather aquired through sinful thoughts and behavior. The truth is that most men do not have such an urge and find it repulsive. I am glad that the number of such men are the minority.

Part of your statement indicates that a man who is tempted to commit such acts will eventually reach a point where he can no longer resist temptation and then act upon it. The truth is that the more we sin the more we surrender our agency and ability to resist temptation to the adversary. It is indeed possible to reach a point through sin where there is no inclination to resist and you are fully in the adversary's power.

Yet it doesn't take immodesty at all to become the victim of rape. If a shark is hungry it's going to eat regardless as to whether or not it's prey is pouring blood into the water through immodesty. Yet that being said, the odds of attracting a shark do increase in proportion to the degree of blood poured into the water and if a woman doesn't want to be eaten in such a way it is advisable that she not dress in those ways which attract such men.

I don't function the way you indicate and I'm not a lying sack of garbage. In addition to my deeds being chaste, so is my mind. I am attracted to both beauty and modesty. I am mentally repulsed and saddened in increasing amounts proportionate to the degree of immodesty. That is not to say that the adversary does not periodically test my defences but I do not heed or entertain his whispers.

my primary point was with your steak analogy. you wave that steak in front of the starved man for long enough legally or not he will eventually want the thing and try and get it.

there is a good and solid reason we are instructed to stay away from sin and that is because the long we sit there with it waved in our face the more likely we are to give into it.

so the more constant and longer we have hooker like dressed girls constantly waved in our face the more likely we are to give into it. whether it is the urge to physically act on it. whether it is adding to a porn addiction. or whether is just tormenting and damaging to our psyche.

the reason i say so clearly all males function this way is because any straight male that is compelled to view long amounts of porn will eventually ya know give in an whack off. so any straight male that is forced and overexposed to the worlds sexual images constantly and never ending will eventually ya know give in. same thing over abundance of girls out and about dressed in hookers means to the unstable mind and the sex addicted mind you are asking a lot of these troubled folks to really try hard and you are playing with fire as you never know which one might explode under the guise of he cant take it anymore. no its not a requirement to get raped but it sure as heck doesnt help.

so yes we can go out in daylight. see these things and be fine. but we are constantly having to on some level fight the deep-seeded temptation to not act on the urge. whether it is a huge temptation or just a small one. it is there regardless. you make a choice to stare and lust or not stare and lust with each interaction you reaffirm one choice or the other eventually it becomes natural a choice was made at some point. its like if i ask you if you want to smoke. sure you made the choice long ago to say no but each time i ask you still reaffirm and remake that choice by saying no each time.

FYI just because you are male doesnt mean you know how the male mind works lol

[Guest]

Giving in to something being offered and taking something by force are very different things. If you think that prolonged temptation leads to a natural reaction to take it by force, I think you may want to explore therapy.

[kayne]

Giving in to something being offered and taking something by force are very different things. If you think that prolonged temptation leads to a natural reaction to take it by force, I think you may want to explore therapy.

well it doesnt always but it can very easily. you know if Satan is knocking at your door nightly not everyone will muster to strength to fight back every night. its just a fact a life.

[Leah]

well it doesnt always but it can very easily. you know if Satan is knocking at your door nightly not everyone will muster to strength to fight back every night. its just a fact a life.

But Satan didn't force them to do anything. They CHOSE to do it.

YOU are responsible for your actions. Only you.

If I handle cash every day at my job, am I to blame the cash if I steal it, because it was there 'tempting' me every day? Or should I blame my employer for putting temptation in my way? Because - according to your logic - if the temptation is there, it's the temptation's fault how I act, I bear no responsibility.

Fortunately, the truth is that the vast majority of men on this planet are NOT going to rape simply because they are exposed to scantily clad women. It boggles the mind that you would think that to be a normal and expected response.

[kayne]

But Satan didn't force them to do anything. They CHOSE to do it.

YOU are responsible for your actions. Only you.

If I handle cash every day at my job, am I to blame the cash if I steal it, because it was there 'tempting' me every day? Or should I blame my employer for putting temptation in my way? Because - according to your logic - if the temptation is there, it's the temptation's fault how I act, I bear no responsibility.

Fortunately, the truth is that the vast majority of men on this planet are NOT going to rape simply because they are exposed to scantily clad women. It boggles the mind that you would think that to be a normal and expected response.

Satan being the master tempter. yes we have that choice but he is still there daily attempting to tempt as many as he can.

the difference between sexual sin vs every other sin on the planet is the fact sexual sin is so natural and so easy to break without a soul knowing about it. worst of all porn and sexual sins other natures like going around screwing everyone at party isnt seen as bad except in rare cases(LDS church being one of the few that sees this as truely bad).

you are right it is the person that does the crimes fault. but hooker dressed women arent helping. given how common porn addiction is these women arent helping men in anyway who have already fallen get back up. all i am saying is given the commonness of porn addiction and other sexual sins. mixed with other possible mental problems that come with that. mixed with stress. and girls that dress like **** porn stars is all creating a bad horrible mix and likely contributing to rape.

also a fun note. one that is entrenched in sexual sin is basically walking with demons possessing them. so ya know they have at this point given up some of there free will and are fighting desperately to reclaim it.

it boggles my mind you vastly underestimate the wickedness of this world. the vast majority of people in this world are horrible vile people that are hell bent on destroying each other. it is the sad truth.

[jerome1232]

If I handle cash every day at my job, am I to blame the cash if I steal it, because it was there 'tempting' me every day? Or should I blame my employer for putting temptation in my way? Because - according to your logic - if the temptation is there, it's the temptation's fault how I act, I bear no responsibility.

I rather like this analogy. Now take it a step further, the employer deactivates the security (to swap tapes or something) and leaves you alone with the money, you really need that money. You think your employer wants you to take it. You take it. Turns out the employer simply trusted you.

Sure you are still to blame if you take it, but it's a lot less black and white isn't it?

Imperfect analogy I admit, I'm not even sure I agree with what I am saying with my example.

[Jenamarie]

I rather like this analogy. Now take it a step further, the employer deactivates the security (to swap tapes or something) and leaves you alone with the money, you really need that money. You think your employer wants you to take it. You take it. Turns out the employer simply trusted you.

Sure you are still to blame if you take it, but it's a lot less black and white isn't it?

Imperfect analogy I admit, I'm not even sure I agree with what I am saying with my example.

No, it's just as black and white. Stealing money that isn't yours is wrong, even if the person you're stealing it from took no precautions to protect it. NOTHING makes rape "not as wrong" in some situations.

[Vort]

NOTHING makes rape "not as wrong" in some situations.

While I agree with the general tenor of what you're saying, this statement is wrong. What constitutes "rape" is purely definitional. A hundred years ago, and probably a lot less than that, the very idea of "raping one's wife" would have been laughed out of court as a contradiction in terms, since the condition of marriage was obvious prima facie consent to sexual activity. A man raised in such a society, and especially one explicitly told by his mother that "sometimes a man just has to go take what he needs, and his wife needs to learn to live with it", could not reasonably be held to anywhere near the same moral (or at the time, legal) standard as the ne'er-do-well who drags an innocent girl off into the bushes.

Similarly, a man who has sex with a consenting but drunken woman has "raped" her, at least by the current feminist (and legal) definition -- even if he didn't know she was incapacitated. You cannot seriously believe that this merits the same moral or legal sanction as the actions of the aforementioned ne'er-do-well.

[jerome1232]

Similarly, a man who has sex with a consenting but drunken woman has "raped" her, at least by the current feminist (and legal) definition -- even if he didn't know she was incapacitated. You cannot seriously believe that this merits the same moral or legal sanction as the actions of the aforementioned ne'er-do-well.

This is the kind of situation I had in mind when making that analogy.

[Leah]

Satan being the master tempter. yes we have that choice but he is still there daily attempting to tempt as many as he can.

the difference between sexual sin vs every other sin on the planet is the fact sexual sin is so natural and so easy to break without a soul knowing about it. worst of all porn and sexual sins other natures like going around screwing everyone at party isnt seen as bad except in rare cases(LDS church being one of the few that sees this as truely bad).

you are right it is the person that does the crimes fault. but hooker dressed women arent helping. given how common porn addiction is these women arent helping men in anyway who have already fallen get back up. all i am saying is given the commonness of porn addiction and other sexual sins. mixed with other possible mental problems that come with that. mixed with stress. and girls that dress like **** porn stars is all creating a bad horrible mix and likely contributing to rape.

also a fun note. one that is entrenched in sexual sin is basically walking with demons possessing them. so ya know they have at this point given up some of there free will and are fighting desperately to reclaim it.

it boggles my mind you vastly underestimate the wickedness of this world. the vast majority of people in this world are horrible vile people that are hell bent on destroying each other. it is the sad truth.

I don't underestimate the wickedness of the world at all. At the same time, I don't believe that the majority of people in this world are "horrible vile people".

What boggles MY mind is that you are looking to blame everything BUT the person who makes the choice to commit the sin.

You clearly do not understand what rape is about - or perhaps you don't WANT to understand it. You continue to blame the victim, instead of putting the blame where it belongs...with the rapist.

You seem to be unnaturally obsessed with how women dress and with the subject of rape. And seem to be looking for justification for men to rape and behave in other abominable ways.

SO WHAT if Satan temps us daily, as you assert. Everyone has free agency. Everyone CAN resist temptation. It is a matter of choice. We are not helpless before Satan. We are as strong as we want to be.

The facts are that the vast majority of men do not rape, nor are they even remotely tempted to do so. And those that do, do so out of choice. It is a choice they make. They are not helpless before some mystical unseen force. It has nothing whatsoever to do with other people's actions, including how any one woman dresses.

Here's a thought...if you think a woman is dressed like a "hooker", don't look at her!

[Backroads]

My reactions to this thread:

Yes, the average man tends to be much more visually stimulated and aggressive than the average woman; therefore, a not-so-modestly dressed woman has the potential to get men thinking sexually.

There was a nice list of reasons why women dress immodestly. Not all are sexual in nature (another me would wear some of them because I would feel generally cute.) Modesty, keep in mind, is also dependent on culture. Therefore, just because a woman is dressed "like a skank" she is not necessarily "asking" to be raped.

Yes, Satan can worm his way into the fashion world and yes, some fashion choices can get men riled up.

But, kayne, you seem to be blaming the women for giving into those fashion temptations more than you are blaming the men who might rape them.